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Not Tropeworthy: Franchise Actors

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Primis Since: Nov, 2010
#76: Jan 26th 2019 at 7:33:03 AM

Well, they aren't on their Creator pages. I don't think it's necessary to list every single role an actor has played on their pages. For some people, that would make their pages excruciatingly long.

So listing all the roles (which can easily be condensed into a folder) on a creator page is bad, but 10+ indexes is a-okay?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#77: Jan 26th 2019 at 8:54:08 AM

[up] That's what I'm wondering too. See, what we're trying to say is that, although these roles might not be on their page, they do belong there and anybody can go and make the change to include those roles. If the length is a problem, just use a folder.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
CaptainTedium Since: Oct, 2012
#78: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:14:33 AM

I never really gave much thought on the practicality of making an index just for listing actors involved in specific franchises, I simply went and added pages to applicable indexes after I created them.

I am unable to choose a side here, so it makes no difference to me whether the Franchise Actor indexes should be cut or if they should be here to stay.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#79: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:40:06 AM

I don't have much of an opinion regarding whether the pages should be kept or not, though I admit that some of the connections on the pages, such as different adaptations of an author's work, seem tenuous.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#80: Jan 26th 2019 at 9:49:07 AM

Including someone's entire filmography is what IMDB does so including it here would be duplicating that.
Work pages and Creator pages list the tropes they use when creating stories. IMDB doesn't list the tropes. Duplicating their list is a side-effect from trying to list all of the tropes they're involved in, not an end-goal in itself. Your indexes don't have tropes.
especially considering character pages tend to be huge and sometimes foldered by character group rather than individual characters.
Not understanding how "big list" is being solved by "make a separate bigger list".
There is always that the option that if you do not like the Franchise Actor indexes, you can also not look at them and not use them.
No, that isn't an option. The indexes clutter up the bottom of the Creator pages. They don't stay in a nice discrete order. As said before, Ian McKellen is on fourteen indexes, and if each work he's ever appeared in gets their own index, we'll end up with hundreds of indexes. We'd get pages like Claude Giraud, where there's more indexes listed than filmography. This is undesirable.
i suggested trimming them to more "mainstream, public-domain" works
That violates There Is No Such Thing as Notability because it demands that we decide what is "mainstream". No, we should treat William Shakespeare, Michael Bay, and Doug Smith similarly; list their contributions to media, create pages for their contributions to media, and explain the storytelling devices they used in each work of media.
There are Role Association pages, and those indexes are very useful for it. I know, it's Just for Fun.
Not only are they in the Just for Fun namespace, they're also not indexing the Creator pages.
This use is similar to the indexes of actors from Oxbridge, for example.
In another TRS thread we have 6:0 consensus to cut Started At Oxbridge (a list of colleges and the people who went to them) and move the description to the UsefulNotes.Oxbridge page. The index of Creators is being removed.
I don't think it's necessary to list every single role an actor has played on their pages. For some people, that would make their pages excruciatingly long.
I think these indexes do have a purpose because a lot of the franchises listed contain some more obscure installments that the general public might not be aware of.
Do you not realize the hypocrisy in claiming "listing every obscure actor is good" and "listing every obscure work is bad"?

Edited by crazysamaritan on Jan 26th 2019 at 12:49:40 PM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#81: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:14:51 AM

I guess what I take issue with is just because some works aren't featured on creator pages or not every actor in a franchise has a character blurb means we absolutely need these indexes. The problem here isn't that there's information we desperately need, but that the information hasn't been added to the proper places. Saying that it'll make the page too long or that "nobody wants" to add minor characters to pages is not an argument in favor of these indexes but rather an argument against doing the work to add this information to another place.

These indexes could very well be helpful, but they shouldn't exist if they only exist because people would rather have indexes than expand the actual pages.

We just kinda need some more convincing arguments than that. The best argument I've heard so far is that it helps people to find certain creators, and if that's the case then I still think we can find a way to put this information somewhere helpful that isn't an index, or else the clutter'll get out of hand.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 26th 2019 at 1:18:28 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
LarryMullen Since: May, 2015
#82: Jan 26th 2019 at 10:45:33 AM

Do you not realize the hypocrisy in claiming "listing every obscure actor is good" and "listing every obscure work is bad"?

I'm not saying that listing every obscure work is bad. Just that not many people might care enough to create pages for those works. But if they want to, then I have no problem with that. As for the argument that these indexes make actors' pages look "cluttered", well, they're at the bottom of the page for a reason. The most important stuff is at the top. I think you'd have to conduct a survey to see how many people are bothered by what's on the bottom of a person's page before declaring it "cluttered".

naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#83: Jan 26th 2019 at 11:18:54 AM

@ James Polk, post 72:

I think there's a difference between Comic Actors etc and these Franchise Actors pages. Actors exists because we need to index creator pages for actors. If indexes get too long, we create subindexes that are more specific. Just as we split Film into Fantasy Films etc, we can split up Actors into different "styles" of actors.

To get down to it, the reason for indexes (in my opinion) is to find pages that are similar to the page you're on. Comic Actors, Shakespearean Actors etc describe a style of acting, analogous to genres for media. Actors who share those indexes are likely to have some similar tropes across their body of work, and so these indexes take info on a trope list and generalize it. And if you want to find out what what that style is/means, the index description will tell you.

Whereas for Franchise Actors, the only thing the index implies is that the characters were in a single work together. Which says almost nothing about what the actors are like, as some of these indexes like Tarzan Actors combine different media and span 70 years. And if you actually want to find out about tropes involved in these roles, the index doesn't tell you, you have to go to the works page.

Comic Actors etc. generalizes a pattern over a creator's body of works, in line with our mission of cataloguing trends and conventions in media. Franchise Actors does not do that.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#84: Jan 26th 2019 at 11:52:47 AM

Just that not many people might care enough to create pages for those works.
Stop dancing away from the point. You are arguing in favour of keeping page where you can't see a connection between actors and films, such as Kimberly Elise and Why Did I Get Married?. You claim these indexes "have a purpose" when you also want to claim that listing every single role an actor has had is "not necessary". That's the hypocrisy.
As for the argument that these indexes make actors' pages look "cluttered"
I'll be more specific than "cluttered". It is harder to find useful indexes, such as Recorded and Stand-Up Comedy, Voice Actors, and Presenters when you're dealing with 12+ other indexes that don't provide lists of similar styles/tropes. Also, webpages take longer to load the more information is on them. That's why we have character limits on pages. This is a disruption to the service we provide, because too much information on a page can break it (meaning people can't read anything on the page).

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#85: Jan 26th 2019 at 12:13:51 PM

[up][up] & [up]

You both bring up excellent points.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
LarryMullen Since: May, 2015
#86: Jan 26th 2019 at 12:16:52 PM

You claim these indexes "have a purpose" when you also want to claim that listing every single role an actor has had is "not necessary". That's the hypocrisy.

Most actors have had roles in works that aren't part of a franchise. Just because an actor is listed in a lot of these indexes doesn't mean that we've covered every role they've ever played. There is no hypocrisy here so please stop trying to pretend that there is.

jamespolk Since: Aug, 2012
#87: Jan 26th 2019 at 12:23:26 PM

I think there's a difference between Comic Actors etc and these Franchise Actors pages. Actors exists because we need to index creator pages for actors.

They're still on the long indexes, though. Shirley Eaton is on Comic Actors and Actors. (She's also on three work-based indexes.).

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#88: Jan 26th 2019 at 12:29:28 PM

[up][up] Why not list all of their works? There's no such thing as notability. Any work an actor has been in can be listed on their page. Again, you're using the fact that currently not all works are listed on the creator's pages and using it as a reason why we should have these indexes, while rejecting the point that those works can be added to those pages by claiming, subjectively, that they don't need to be.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 26th 2019 at 3:32:08 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
LarryMullen Since: May, 2015
#89: Jan 26th 2019 at 12:34:11 PM

Why not list all of their works? There's no such thing as notability. Any work an actor has been in can be listed on their page. Again, you're using the fact that currently not all works are listed on the creator's pages and using it as a reason why we should have these indexes, while rejecting the point that those works can be added to those pages by claiming, subjectively, that they don't need to be.

Let me make this clear: I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other as to whether obscure works should be listed on actors' pages. But I do have strong feelings that these indexes should remain in one form or another because of the effort myself and others have put into maintaining them.

Speaking of which, I see that the cut list has just been cleared and the cut requests have been declined. So it looks like the people in charge of TV Tropes have spoken and they say that the indexes should be allowed to stay. smile

Edited by LarryMullen on Jan 26th 2019 at 3:40:32 PM

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#90: Jan 26th 2019 at 12:41:23 PM

Maybe we should put the discussion to a crowner.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#91: Jan 26th 2019 at 12:46:09 PM

[up][up] True, but you can't completely assume that they were declined because people want them around. It might be because the reason for cutting them was insufficient.

[up] I agree. This discussion is going nowhere. Let's get a crowner.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Erin582 Everything is Everything from I live among the creatures of the night Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Everything is Everything
#92: Jan 26th 2019 at 1:58:19 PM

Thank you, Larry Mullen.

Also crazysamaritan, you seem to be more interested in picking and choosing to listen to certain things I am saying and harping on it until I give you an answer? That's not how it works.

I realize that Kimberly Elise and Why Did I Get Married? are in the same Tyler Perry universe, that more of his work needs to be expanded on and let's say that I do create pages for characters for more of his (and others) work. Am I expected to list every single thing they've ever done on their Creator page, red link or otherwise (and not just them, but other creators' work)? I'll ask again to bring up if an idle, barely updated work is superior to a red link? Isn't that an example of cluttering up the wiki? I'm not understanding what your argument/hostility with me is here to point of calling me a hypocrite, especially in the hopes of getting me to hear out your point of view. Plenty of people have made decent arguments on both sides of the issue without resorting to name-calling.

Are you adding to the discussion on this site, or just taking away from someone else's contributions?
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#93: Jan 26th 2019 at 2:02:22 PM

It's not, because having red links may inspire people to make pages, and just because a work page might be small or underwritten doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that we can just brush them under the rug. And no, we don't have to list every work a creator has ever been in, but there's no good argument for not, especially since it can all be hidden in a folder. Indexes clutter up the bottom and there's nothing to do about it.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
jamespolk Since: Aug, 2012
#94: Jan 26th 2019 at 2:59:10 PM

Suggestion, if we're having a crowner: all of these indexes and main space pages should be gone. All of them.

Where to put Creators? On general indexes: Actors, Music, and the like. On individual work pages. Possibly on franchise pages, but that should be avoided if possible—in other words, don't put Emma Watson on the Harry Potter franchise page, put her on the Harry Potter film page.

And yes, put everything on an actor's page, everything with a TV Tropes work page that is. If Krysten Ritter guest-starred on some TV show before she got famous, put it there. Elijah Wood is in Back to the Future Part II for 30 seconds? Put it on his page.

Mickoonsley19 Since: Feb, 2018
#95: Jan 26th 2019 at 3:07:02 PM

  1. An idle, barely-updated work is 100% superior to a red link, no matter what.
  2. Creator pages can and should list red links without their own pages.

BlackMage43 Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#96: Jan 26th 2019 at 3:44:40 PM

I can see the logic on Franchise Actors cluttering up indexes (and that seems to be the main point of contention of this discussion), but wanting them completely gone seems too extreme. Couldn't they just stop being indexes and existing Just for Fun?

And I do feels like some Creator indexes are worth keeping. I don't see the problem with Comic Actors or Scream Queens for example.

Edited by BlackMage43 on Jan 26th 2019 at 3:46:35 AM

AHI-3000 Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#97: Jan 26th 2019 at 5:48:35 PM

It should be noted that the moderators have declined to delete this page.

In my personal opinion, while I can understand the skepticism that there should be so many different indexes that list actors for a franchise, I think that lists of these nature can still be very useful and interesting. However, I don't think that they should necessarily be Useful Notes pages. Also, they need to be subpages of work articles; as I've already proposed before, I think "Cast" would make a good new namespace. It would be a convenient way to list cast and crew members for a work.

Khugol Since: Nov, 2018
#98: Jan 26th 2019 at 5:52:19 PM

Either "Cast" or "Actors" as namespace could work indeed.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016
#99: Jan 26th 2019 at 6:04:59 PM

The reasons the mods gave for declining the cuts was that the discussion was still active.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#100: Jan 26th 2019 at 6:10:39 PM

[up] That's what I'd figured.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

PageAction: FranchiseActors
30th Jan '19 10:52:04 PM

Crown Description:

Franchise Actors is being declared Not Tropeworthy.

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