TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Hate Sink cleanup

Go To

The main concern of a Hate Sink is whether the narrative treats the character as someone intended to be despised.

The character in question must actually display detestable qualities, and be hated by other characters at least, or treated by the narrative like someone you are supposed to hate. The author's declared intent cements an example, but is not needed if the narrative itself treats the character as someone who is supposed to be hated.

A Hate Sink may have charismatic traits, a troubled past, or complexity, but in order for this trope to be in effect, such traits must be de-emphasized by the narrative in favour of their detestable traits.

Please note that we do not use Effort Posts.

Edited by gjjones on Dec 3rd 2020 at 7:43:25 AM

nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#2276: Nov 19th 2019 at 6:55:54 PM

[up][up][up]I guess I have to ask what the intended purpose of the sandbox is. I'm interjecting at this point because I was reviewing this thread from the locked pages requests.

[up][up]Let's check the verbiage here. I feel like EP has an association of needing a certain amount of votes - but if someone wants to talk about a character that they're not sure qualifies or not, then of course it's fine. That's what clean-up threads are for. That's what "Is this an example?" does, but without the bureaucratic necessity of formal effortposts and vote-tallying.

Edited by nombretomado on Nov 19th 2019 at 6:56:19 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2277: Nov 19th 2019 at 6:56:00 PM

Austin I'll give your characters a yeah but watch the "Okay I'm dropping entirely" attitude. Also, Kylo, as Austin just demonstrated, these cases can be summed up in a paragraph. This "If someone wants to do an EP they get to" is pushing for an EP to happen for the sake of it and that should never be its purpose. Lighty has similarly given brief summaries for his characters with no issue. Even those probably don't always need to be used: someone can just as easily bring a list of examples and y'all can just decide which are worth keeping.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2278: Nov 19th 2019 at 7:05:53 PM

Honestly, I only endorsed the effortpost model because I thought it was supposed to be helpful.

I found that it was a way to organize my thoughts more clearly, and as someone who works better with that kind of structure, I may have allowed that to impede my judgement.

Honestly, I think the effortpost format for this trope is only beneficial for people who find it easier to organize their thoughts that way, or maybe, if I'm being charitable, situations where the candidate in question has enough traits which cast doubt on the author's intent, and even then, a brief unstructured summary will suffice in most cases.

[up][up] I mean the Hate Sink Sandboxes.

[down] I think the Dates page is a definite cut. And I have come to agree that enforcing effortposting in this thread is excessive. Which is why I had the wording changed to "it sometimes helps to address the following queries".

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 19th 2019 at 10:19:34 AM

nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#2279: Nov 19th 2019 at 7:08:21 PM

If it helps you, that's great (sincerely), but I think that it should be used only when the person bringing up the example finds it helpful. Making it a required part of clean-up is a little excessive.

[up]I don't really have an opinion for keeping track of who is working on what. I do think that if we loosen the reins on this thread, it's not going to be needed as much.

Edited by nombretomado on Nov 19th 2019 at 7:09:20 AM

Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#2280: Nov 19th 2019 at 7:10:21 PM

Per past arguments, I agree that Hate Sink should not need the same pre-screened vote requirement that Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard do. That just slows things down.

Once we get the OK to operate like most cleanup threads, I'll add the My First Girlfriend Is a Gal entry I suggested a while ago.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2281: Nov 19th 2019 at 7:15:49 PM

Ok, I'm just going to invite ~Shadao into the discussion so that he can be in the loop.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2282: Nov 19th 2019 at 7:21:59 PM

I think for sure scratch the header, scratch the sandboxes, scratch people needing to make effortposts and writeups. Mandatory screening of examples shouldn't even really be necessary unless they're particularly questionable. The goal of the cleanup thread is to cleanup the trope; that means picking out bad examples across the wiki and cleaning up misuse.

Edited by Scraggle on Nov 19th 2019 at 8:27:24 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#2283: Nov 19th 2019 at 7:57:47 PM

"Also, Kylo, as Austin just demonstrated, these cases can be summed up in a paragraph. This "If someone wants to do an EP they get to" is pushing for an EP to happen for the sake of it and that should never be its purpose. Lighty has similarly given brief summaries for his characters with no issue. Even those probably don't always need to be used: someone can just as easily bring a list of examples and y'all can just decide which are worth keeping."

@43

No Offense, but that's not at all what I was saying, when I said "You can still make an EP if you want too" I meant....just that. The reason the thread has been Smooth so far is that a lot of people just want to make E Ps either cause they feel it's fun or it makes things easier for them. I'm perfectly okay with just allowing paragraph summaries if someone wants too, especially if the Charachter is an easy keep.

And keep the Sandbox, Its what allows us to give better Write ups to replace the Zero Context or Poorly written ones. And I say keep the header, but totally agreed on scratching the dates thing.

Edited by Kylotrope on Nov 19th 2019 at 8:03:22 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2284: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:05:50 PM

I think the header can be replaced with the following. It is a lot more concise.

     HS Overview 

The main concern of this trope is whether the narrative treats the character as someone intended to be despised.

In order for this trope to be in effect, the character in question must actually display detestable qualities, and be hated by other characters at least, or treated by the narrative like someone you are supposed to hate. The author's declared intent cements an example, but is not needed if the narrative itself treats the character as someone who is supposed to be hated.

Haman the Agagite, for instance, displays qualities of ego, bigotry, and pettiness; additionally, there is a custom of jeering at his name's mere mention. It goes without saying, according to this thread, that Haman was intended to be despised by the audience. Being a Draco in Leather Pants, like Draco Malfoy, or a character people Love to Hate, like Joffrey Baratheon, doesn't preclude being a Hate Sink; being a Complete Monster, like Haman, certainly doesn't preclude this trope either. In fact, not even being a Magnificent Bastard would necessarily preclude qualifying for this trope.

A Hate Sink may have charismatic traits, a troubled past, or complexity, but in order for this trope to be in effect, such traits must be de-emphasized in favour of their detestable traits.

With regards to this trope, actions still generally speak louder than words. The format of editing which brings up characters who don't fit the bill before mentioning the candidate's name doesn't generally go into enough detail with regards to what makes these characters loathsome.

The entries for this trope should ideally focus on who does qualify, rather than the characters who do not. However, denoting the fact that the character sets themselves apart from more charismatic/sympathetic/likeable characters of the setting is perfectly reasonable, and in some cases even necessary, so long as in doing so, one does not neglect to mention their despicable traits and actions.

As for the sandboxes, I personally find it easier to use the drafts page rather than constantly tweaking an entry.

And if nobody objects, I will make a separate sandbox for the optional hate sink effortpost format. I say optional, because some people may find it easier to organize their thoughts using the format. (I know I did.)

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 19th 2019 at 12:13:55 PM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#2285: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:09:46 PM

[up] That's good.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2286: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:21:39 PM

I really don’t think EPs are necessary and despite the goodwill of offering them to people because they’re fun, can’t see this ending anywhere good.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#2287: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:25:57 PM

[up] We've been doing this for like, months and no real consequences occurred.

If something bad happens as a result of it? Then we can talk more.

Edited by Kylotrope on Nov 19th 2019 at 8:27:05 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#2288: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:31:53 PM

Why do you need to do it? Why can't you just have a normal damn cleanup-thread with no EP nonsense?

Be a cleanup thread and actually clean up bad Hate Sink examples. Don't just sit around trying to curate the trope, which is unnecessary.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#2289: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:32:52 PM

[up][up] You rather allow something bad to happen, or you prevent it. Sorry, but I'm going with Option B. "Nothing bad happened" is not a good answer.

And... I'm honestly against this "optional sandbox" idea, things are already convoluted enough. I'm sure half of Tropers use their own sandboxes to "organize" their proposals/entries.

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Nov 19th 2019 at 2:48:27 PM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#2290: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:33:56 PM

[up] [up] no one's saying they need to do it. Its optional because for some people it Makes things easier.

[up] the thing is there's Zero Indication anything bad WILL happen

What problems are possible exactly?

Edited by Kylotrope on Nov 19th 2019 at 9:12:15 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2291: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:35:25 PM

So I'm asked to give my thoughts on the matter, and I shall obliged:

An EP for a Hate Sink should always be on the matter of uncertainty like with Scar or Freddy Krueger, where the lines are blurred and people are unsure if they are intended to be hated or loved (as in Evil Is Cool). A straightforward example, however, seems redundant when no one can refute it. I've stated before that if you were to provide Word of God as direct evidence (unless they are incompetent enough to create only Designated Villain), there is no need for [tup] or [tdown]. Author's intent overrides all.

As for the Sandbox, it would be a good place for people who want to meddle with their entries before placing it into the main page (as opposed to hogging the edit page time just to tweak it again and again).

Edited by Shadao on Nov 19th 2019 at 8:48:04 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2292: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:46:28 PM

Okay. Let me just clear the air.

Nombretomado said the following in response to my explanation that effortposts helped me organize my thoughts on candidates.

If it helps you, that's great (sincerely), but I think that it should be used only when the person bringing up the example finds it helpful. Making it a required part of clean-up is a little excessive.

The only reason that there would be anything about effortposts in the sandbox is because it is possible that I am not the only one who finds the (optional) use of effortposts an easier way to organize their thoughts. That said, it is not going to be mandatory.

In any case, I will go with consensus.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 19th 2019 at 11:48:37 AM

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2293: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:51:08 PM

In regards to Hate Sink's relations to other tropes, here are my qualification suggestions in light of the discussion:

1) Word of God.
2) The story must show attempt to make the character despicable by their archetype level. note  No attempt is not trope-worthy.
3) With that said, Hate Sink can backfire and lead to Love to Hate, Draco in Leather Pants or yes, even Magnificent Bastard if the author poorly handles a Hate Sink. Audience Reaction is not the same as author's intent.

Edited by Shadao on Nov 19th 2019 at 8:51:45 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#2294: Nov 19th 2019 at 10:47:06 PM

Okay, after thinking about it? I actually 100% support making E Ps non mandatory in general, I was already fine with it before, but now thinking about it I agree with the logic behind it.

That being said? I'm still very much agasint the idea of Banning people from doing E Ps over the Feeling something might go wrong down the line.

And, another thing I want to say right now. Can people please calm down? It's fine to discuss but I don't feel this is worth the big drama that's being made about it.

[down] I'm also autistic. Nice to know I'm not alone.

Edited by Kylotrope on Nov 19th 2019 at 11:56:13 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#2295: Nov 19th 2019 at 11:39:13 PM

I never really thought they were mandatory in the firat place. I only do them because I'm autistic and they help me organize my thoughts.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2296: Nov 20th 2019 at 12:14:33 AM

Edit: Deleting my character suggestion for now so that we can focus on Zero Context and Bad Examples.

[up]Same here. Although with obvious candidates, I don't know that I would have to anymore.

[down] Maybe proposal is the wrong word to use, but what I'm trying to accomplish is facilitate discussion of whether the examples I suggested fit this trope.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 20th 2019 at 8:28:14 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#2297: Nov 20th 2019 at 12:23:36 AM

Look, I'm less concerned over the use of Effort Posts than I am about the whole "proposal" thing. Why do examples need to be proposed? Why can't you guys just find bad examples and discuss their validity, rather than play curator? That's what bothers me.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2298: Nov 20th 2019 at 12:36:39 AM

Ok then.

Let's start with this all but ZCE.

  • Universal Soldier: The Return: SETH's Dragon, Romeo. Whereas SETH is actually a charismatic and cunning villain, Romeo is a brutish oaf and Implacable Man who is also smug, spouting grating one-liners, and is even implied to have been a rapist in his past life.

Could someone please validate whether this example is accurate?

Otherwise, I'm burning it.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2299: Nov 20th 2019 at 12:36:49 AM

[up][up] Fine by me. It can certainly lightens the load of keeping track of everyone. Perhaps, just like EP, we can make proposals optional, only used if the user is uncertain about a character's status as Hate Sink like Freddy Krueger.

It can also help us focus more time on reorganizing the examples in alphabetical order.

Edited by Shadao on Nov 20th 2019 at 12:37:33 PM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#2300: Nov 20th 2019 at 12:48:55 AM

Yeah after reading all these post I agree with what Lighty, 43110, Scraggle, Madcrow, and the others have said. A cleanup thread such as this should only be used to cleanup bad examples. We don’t need an EP on every character posted on this trope (unless if it’s a last resort for a really devise) and people should just freely add characters whom they think are clearly meant to be hated. If the write-up is badly written it will be brought here to be properly written. Perhaps this will give people more time on posting to the CM/MB forums especially the latter since there have been days where it hasn’t been much activity .

Edited by G-Editor on Nov 20th 2019 at 10:53:04 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff

Total posts: 7,142
Top