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Hate Sink cleanup

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The main concern of a Hate Sink is whether the narrative treats the character as someone intended to be despised.

The character in question must actually display detestable qualities, and be hated by other characters at least, or treated by the narrative like someone you are supposed to hate. The author's declared intent cements an example, but is not needed if the narrative itself treats the character as someone who is supposed to be hated.

A Hate Sink may have charismatic traits, a troubled past, or complexity, but in order for this trope to be in effect, such traits must be de-emphasized by the narrative in favour of their detestable traits.

Please note that we do not use Effort Posts.

Edited by gjjones on Dec 3rd 2020 at 7:43:25 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2226: Nov 16th 2019 at 10:23:50 PM

[tup] Jeremiah.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#2227: Nov 17th 2019 at 1:53:05 AM

[tup] to Jeremiah. He’s up there with Hank Hippopotamus and Joseph Sugarman for being the most despicable piece of trash on the show

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#2228: Nov 17th 2019 at 11:32:35 PM

  • BoJack Horseman: Jeremiah Whitewhale exists as a biting satire of MegaCorp monopolies. Having a hand in every industry he can think of, Jeremiah forces other companies to sell themselves to him by driving them out of the market when they refuse. After dominating a market, he works his emplpyees to the bone, having them murdered for things like taking too many bathroom breaks and leavong their bodies on the floor to scare the employees. This is all a plan to be as openly evil as possible so his fellow billionaores will buy into his company to maximize his power, which he uses to do things like get murder legalized for billionaires.

I'll propose anybody ekse as I work through the season.

Shadao, put this entry at the bottom of the tree.

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Nov 17th 2019 at 11:34:27 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#2229: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:06:48 PM

So...first things first. With the Overlook Hotel, it's made more apparent in the book, and was alluded to in the 1980 film (even if Kubrick tried to lean towards ambiguity) that the hotel itself was alive and feeding on Danny for his Shining ability. That and in the book when it takes full possession of Jack, it's referred to as "It" (no, not that IT; that one will be on the scene 9 years later). The hotel, in short, corrupts people into killing their families and themselves and has a long history of violence in its wake. Its latest victims were, of course, the Torrance family. It drives Jack homicidally insane to the point he tries to kill Wendy and Danny. But Jack was able to overcome his possession long enough to run to the boiler room to overload the boiler, causing the Overlook to go up in flames (which is represented by the miniseries). That is unless you watched the 1980 film where the hotel remains standing. NOTE: This only covers the book, 1980 film, and the novel Doctor Sleep, not the recently released film.

Ultimately, the Overlook Hotel I feel is conveyed enough as a Genius Loci that drives its inhabitants to madness. That, and it manifests itself within Jack demonstrating its personality.

Edited by AustinDR on Nov 18th 2019 at 1:21:04 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2230: Nov 18th 2019 at 1:07:51 PM

[tup] Hotel.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#2231: Nov 18th 2019 at 2:13:15 PM

[tup] for the Overlook Hotel.

Oh, I found this on the Characters page for Atlantis: The Lost Empire:

  • Hate Sink: Once he's revealed to be the villain, Rourke goes out of his way to become as unlikable and despicable as possible, with the flimsiest of excuses, even when it's not wise to do so, and has the most transparent of motives, all while acting like an insufferable jackass who thinks he knows better. His bad sense of humor is tasteless, he is completely unreasonable, and his actions and attitude are so repulsive that most of the cast immediately turn on him. And he didn't hesitate to throw Helga off the blimp in order to lighten its load. Milo also mentions that the most probable buyer for Kida and the crystal, in terms of who has enough money in the world for it, is the Kaiser.

It seems good enough to have been written by the thread and I think there's an argument for Rourke to qualify post-reveal, but I wanted to verify if it was approved, because I've reason to believe it wasn't.

Edited by TellAll111 on Nov 18th 2019 at 2:13:47 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2232: Nov 18th 2019 at 2:15:53 PM

It may not have been approved, but it seems like a legitimate example. Do you want to propose the Commander just in case?

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 18th 2019 at 5:16:04 AM

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#2233: Nov 18th 2019 at 2:22:12 PM

I feel like I might be jumping in the deep end, since I've never proposed or EP'd a character before, but okay, I'll give it a bash.

I also think a couple of characters from Only Fools and Horses might qualify; Roy Slater and Reg Trotter.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2234: Nov 18th 2019 at 2:29:52 PM

The header will explain what questions we usually ask in HS proposals.

I'm going to request that "the following questions must be answered" be changed to "the following queries might need to be addressed", because in some cases, no mitigating qualities apply.

Technically, effortposts in this thread are only really needed for candidates where there are any traits which cast any doubt on the intent of the narrative, but I find it easier for myself for organizational reasons.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#2235: Nov 18th 2019 at 2:45:10 PM

Okay, thanks, I'll try and write an EP for Rourke over the next two days. Looked over some old ones to get a good idea of it, even found yours for the Unnamed Supervisor from Die Hard.

Yeah, I'd be seething too.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#2236: Nov 18th 2019 at 5:08:33 PM

I don't recall the Hotel really being hatable, at least in tne 1980 film. [tdown] there. Abstain on the book version.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#2237: Nov 18th 2019 at 5:19:04 PM

I only mentioned the movie because it was adapted from the book.

Edited by AustinDR on Nov 18th 2019 at 5:21:18 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2239: Nov 19th 2019 at 3:36:05 AM

I question whether we should have to wait 2 weeks, come to think of it, since Hate Sink is an objective trope. Not that we shouldn't have discussion reservations, but I think two weeks is a bit excessive.

By the way, I think that screenplays should have their own folder in Other Media

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 19th 2019 at 6:40:06 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#2240: Nov 19th 2019 at 5:53:48 AM

I've said it elsewhere...

There needs to be a stop to this duplication of CM and MB thread rules where they're not needed.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2241: Nov 19th 2019 at 6:33:05 AM

Did you notice the header change, Lighty? I took the liberty of requesting the re-phrasing to "the following queries might need to be addressed" in light of the fact that effortposts are not strictly necessary in this thread.

I will admit that they do help in cases where there are enough traits to cast doubt on the narrative intent that it needs to be pointed out that their loathsome traits are nonetheless still emphasized; plus, I personally find them easier organizationally.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#2242: Nov 19th 2019 at 6:35:09 AM

I mean there should be no wait period whatsoever for a hate sink. Like midnight on the date, it's ripe o put up and nobody should be forced to EP one if it's a clear keeper.

The following qualities might need to be addressed' do not really drive in that this is fundamentally optional about an objective trope that has not seen widespread misuse the way CM or MB did.

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 19th 2019 at 6:36:01 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2243: Nov 19th 2019 at 6:53:14 AM

I agree that no formal EP is needed for clear keepers. I was just saying, for more complex candidates like Griffith (who was a bust), Frollo (who was kept), or, quite frankly, Fraser (who I wrote), all of whom have traits which could cast doubt on the narrative intent, effortposts with more detail would be helpful to establish that their mitigating traits were de-emphasized in favour of their loathsome traits.

I also agree that there shouldn't be a wait period, and I don't know what I was thinking when I created the Dates sandbox. I guess I just thought I was playing it safe. Now I know better.

So, how should we rephrase the header?

Change it to "it sometimes helps to address the following queries"?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#2244: Nov 19th 2019 at 8:16:04 AM

Besides the Overlook in the film taking possession of Danny and trying to force him to kill Abra, and also trying to stop him from destroying it by turning off the boiler, let's talk about the film adaptation of Doctor Sleep.

For starters, everyone's favorite ax-wielding maniac Jack Torrance. He's still very much an asshole. Unlike in the book where he assists his son Danny with vanquishing Rose the Hat, he instead takes Lloyd's place as the Bartender and more or less tells Danny that he always hated him and Danny whilst trying to tempt him with alcohol. Whether or not that was Jack or the Overlook playing tricks on Danny is kind of ambiguous, but it ultimately doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

The True Knots...as a whole, they are astoundingly despicable. They are a race of quasi-immortal beings that feed off steam, the life force made by dying kids who have the Shining. In order to acquire the steam, they kidnap and torture children, as evidenced prominently when they kidnap and butcher a boy named Bradley. As for the leader Rose the Hat...she's despicable, but she at the very least ironically comes off as one of the more human compared to her group. She is charismatic (well some of it has to do with her actress), has genuine mitigating factors such as loving her fellow True Knots as evidenced by comforting one as they lay dying.

As for the rest...they vary because they really lack characterization. But of the two there was Barry the Chunk and Snakebite Andi.

     Barry the Chunk 
Barry the Chunk (which was a movie original as the initial nickname he went by in the book was pretty racist) was one I despised the most because he was just a sick sonofabitch. He lures Bradley by complimenting his baseball playing skills (in a scene that just reeked of stranger danger) and then takes a disgusting amount of pleasure assisting his group in torturing the boy to death. I am writing a fanfic on Doctor Sleep where I did add a little bit more to him but that is beside the point. A pretty firm keeper IMO.

     Snakebite Andi 
The other one wasn't really pleased with how the movie represented them. Snakebite Andi was a 15-year-old girl who was known as a pusher because of her Compelling Voice. She is introduced putting a scar on the face of a man she was "dating" (apparently she did so because the guy was a pedophile; it's heavily implied that she had done this to others as well) where Rose the Hat offers to make her a member of the True Knots. Now, the reason as to why I personally loathe this iteration of her is because of the utter hypocrisy. She claims to have went after these men because they harm children, and yet when she became a True Knot, she took everything that it entailed in strides, including assisting in the kidnapping and torturing of children to death. And in a movie original, as she was dying, she spitefully tells Billy to kill himself thus robbing Danny of one of the only friends he had in his traumatizing life.

I am less thrilled with that one because the film basically did as Kubrick did with Jack and stripped Snakebite Andi of her more tragic story wherein the novel part of what was going on with her was she repeatedly molested by her father as one of her primary motivations. It made her less complex, but at the same time, I can see why it was Adapted Out.

Edited by AustinDR on Nov 19th 2019 at 8:26:12 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2245: Nov 19th 2019 at 1:39:30 PM

[tup] Barry and Andi.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2247: Nov 19th 2019 at 3:55:09 PM

I'm with Lighty, I think more 'complex' candidates can be handled with a few paragraphs at most weighing things out. We really don't need this thread applying the rules of the MB and CM ones and honestly, reading the main page description for Hate Sink, I've got some concerns about what's being put up here because people vote on it fitting under something that might actually be straying from the definition.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2248: Nov 19th 2019 at 4:14:24 PM

The basic definition of this trope is a character who is designed to be hated, if I'm not mistaken. No more, no less.

I actually think the page description may need to be rewritten, given that it uses Example As Thesis, which confuses the matter.

Maybe I did go overboard with the header, but at the time, I felt that too many people were using Draco in Leather Pants, as well as Evil Is Cool, Freudian Excuse, and Complexity as an excuse to cut HS entries, and I felt that it needed to be pointed out that Hate Sinks could have humanizing or charismatic qualities, so long as such traits were downplayed in favour of their loathsome traits.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2249: Nov 19th 2019 at 4:17:04 PM

Alright, this is an issue, so I'm just going to pull it from the trope's page:

Not to be confused with a (literal) Heat Sink. A metaphorical one counts if you're using the pro wrestling use of the word. Contrast The Scrappy, who is not designed to be hated but who garners a Hatedom anyway. Often a Smug Snake. Compare X-Pac Heat, when the hate is directed at an actor or performer instead of the character; and Love to Hate, when the character is supposed to be enjoyed by the readers/viewers for their evilness. Compare and contrast Unintentionally Unsympathetic, which is when the audience doesn't sympathize with a character that the creators intended them to. Remember that Tropes Are Tools: a poorly-written Hate Sink can easily become The Scrappy, if they are unpopular for the wrong reasons, while one that's just a little too unique or badass is likely to be received as a Love to Hate example. Rooting for the Empire is when a villain is supported by legions of fans. They can also end up being Unintentionally Sympathetic and/or a Designated Villain if the author dosen't give the audience a strong reason to hate them. That said, a Hate Sink will never get support for their actions. Contrast Evil Is Sexy, since a huge amount of sex appeal runs the risk of counterbalancing the character's unlikeability, creating, to the contrary, legions of fans attracted by their physical appearance; and Evil Is Cool and Draco in Leather Pants, when an evil or otherwise unsympathetic character is liked by the audience. Ironically, there are a few examples that end up backfiring horribly due to the existence of these tropes.

This indicates that Love to Hate instead happens when the audience enjoys how dickish they are, instead of just hating them as a be-all and end-all. I see examples listed under both... Gihren Zabi is enjoyed by many Gundam fans precisely because of how massive the scope of his villainy is. Somehow he suddenly wound up here too? What's going on?

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#2250: Nov 19th 2019 at 4:30:47 PM

We must have neglected to fix that. The Hate Sink trope is entirely based on narrative intent.

The part about a Hate Sink never getting support for their actions is probably not true, given that the Draco in Leather Pants trope is named after a Hate Sink, even if he eventually ends up removed from that role.

Or maybe one of us should rewrite the audience support part as follows:

"A properly written Hate Sink will largely invoke the audience's wrath as a result of their actions."

I'm pretty sure Love to Hate has little to do with narrative intent.

That said, it's not like the two can't overlap.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Nov 19th 2019 at 7:38:45 AM


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