Hate Sink cleanup

All has now been added to the main page:

• Savaged: Trey is a redneck from a long line of anti-Native American serial killers. First introduced running his latest victim down with a truck, he abducts a deaf woman who witnessed the crime. After binding her with barbed wire, Trey rapes her before killing her to prevent police attention. After Zoe comes back with the help of an Apache ghost, Trey forces his friends to help him fight her on pain of death.
• Edward Scissorhands:
  • Jim is Kim Boggs' boyfriend, who gets violently possessive when the childlike Edward is brought home by her mom. He decides to manipulate him into picking a lock for his gang to rob a place, leaving him to be arrested when a burglar alarm goes off. When Kim dumps him over this, he drives around in a drunken rage and almost runs over her kid brother. He then blames Edward for a scratch the kid got from being rescued and leads an Angry Mob to kill him, eventually slapping Kim when she tries to stop him.
  • Joyce is a bored housewife whose interest is piqued when Edward arrives. She offers to help him use his scissor hands to open a salon, but this is a front to seduce him. When he resists, not understanding what's happening, she tries to force herself on him. Edward successfully escapes the assault, but Joyce uses a scratch she got in the process to claim he tried to rape her.
• BrainDead:
  • Ever since her husband died, Vera Cosgrove has bullied her son Lionel into spending all his time with her. When he actually gets a date, she stalks the two and manipulates him into leaving her after getting bitten by an animal. The infection eventually turns Vera into a zombie, who turns several of the neighbors. As Lionel tries to deal with the zombie attack, he learns that Vera drowned her own husband along with his mistress. Soon after, she mutates into a giant monster and tries to force Lionel into her womb to be with him forever.
  • Uncle Les manages to be an even worse person than Vera. He blackmails Lionel into giving him the house and his half of Vera's fortune, attempts to rape Paquita, then leaves her and Lionel to die at the hands of the zombies. He proves himself to be a competent zombie killer, but enjoys the slaughter way more than he should, torturing the zombified Father McGruder by pulling his teeth and boasting about how he's going to dismember an infected woman. In the end, it's quite satisfying to watch Paquita smash his head to bits against the counter.
• Perfect Assassins: Dr. Samuel Greely is a Psycho Psychologist who seeks to perfect the conditioning of humans. To achieve this, he kidnaps children and locks them in a cage where they have to shock themselves to get food. The only human interaction allowed to Training from Hell that involves vicious beatings by grown men, which Greely laughs at as he watches. He then sends the kids on assassination missions where they kill themselves if they succeed. If they fail, he sticks them back in their box to stew in their trauma.
• Harry Potter:
  • Marvolo Gaunt is The Patriarch of the Gaunt family and one of the last living descendants of Salazar Slytherin alongside his children Morfin and Merope. Marvolo treated his daughter Merope with nothing but contempt, forcing her to do all the work and berating her for her lack of magic, a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy since abuse stifles the development of magic. Because of his bloodline, Marvolo thought he was untouchable, and proved to be unreasonable when confronted about his son’s attack on a muggle named Tom Riddle. When Marvolo learned of his daughter’s infatuation with Riddle, he tried to strangle her in front of a Ministry official, leading to his and Morfin’s arrest. Marvolo’s abusive treatment of his daughter caused decades of suffering for the wizarding world when Merope despaired after being left by Riddle and died giving birth to his son, who would become Lord Voldemort and instigated two wars in a mad quest for power and immortality.
• Fire Emblem Tellius:
  • Duke Lekain of Gaddos is the Vice Minister of Begnion and an extremely heartless and an extremely bigoted man. Before the events of both games started, he and a few other Senators murdered Empress Misola of Begnion and blamed the murder on the peace-loving Serenes Forest Heron Laguz, leading to the people of Begnion massacring all but four in a single night, and bedridding one. At the beginning of Radiant Dawn, he allows Duke Numida and General Jarod to brutally enslave the conquered kingdom Daein and cruelly mistreat and or kill them. He tells Izuka, a man the Mad King Ashnard had as his loyal adviser, to work with him and together they find a young man named Pelleas who appears to be Daein's prince, and manipulate him into signing a blood pact. Lekain also had King Naesala of the raven kingdom of Kilvas sign said pact tricking both rulers into thinking it was a sign of goodwill. After approving laguz slavery between the various nobles, and the usage of a drug made by a partner in crime, Izuka, to turn the Laguz into Feral Ones, he murders an ambassador of goodwill which kickstarts a massive war between the Laguz Alliance and Begnion. Using the king of Daein and his nation, as well as Kilvas, he takes this opportunity to attempt to wipe out the Laguz for good. Upon Ashera unleashing her divine judgment, he quickly sends fanatics of the goddess to murder the remaining heroes. In short, he's nothing but a despicable, bigoted human.
• Trash Fire: Violet is Owen and Pearl's abusive religious fanatic of a grandmother who made their lives miserable for years, continuing to mistreat the disfigured Pearl to the present day. Intending on murdering the rest of her family, Violet sabotages Owen's epilepsy medication when the latter is not looking. Revealing to her Pastor that she killed her own daughter and son-in-law, and attempted to drive her own grandchild to suicide, Violet reveals her intention to finish killing the rest of her family, Blackmailing the Pastor into compliance so that he does not interfere. Upon returning home, Violet puts a rattlesnake in the toilet in order to make an attempt on Isabel's life, then attempts to set Owen on fire. Later on, Violet attempts to shoot an incapacitated Owen, as well as Isabel, only to be shot by Pearl. Overall, Violet is a textbook example of a self-righteous abuser, and a sociopath.
• Battlestar Galactica (1978): Sire Uri from the show's pilot "Saga of a Star World" is a member of the Quorum of Twelve, the ruling council governing the Twelve Colonies of Man. Once a man of integrity and good intentions, Uri became corrupted by fame and power. In the wake of the near-annihilation of the Colonies at the hands of the Cylons, Uri gorges on hoarded food while most refugees starve and shows no mourning for his wife, instead enjoying the company of women decades younger than him. Despite the fact that Commander Adama voted for his seat on the Council, Uri makes attempts to undermine him at every opportunity, including plans that impact the fleet's survival and despite knowing that the Cylons are still chasing them, Uri tries to push through a plan to disarm the Colonies' militia, a plan that falls through when Cylons attack an announcement of his plan and Uri is forced to relinquish control of the situation to Adama's son Apollo.
• Mobile Suit Gundam Seed Destiny:
  • Lord Djbrill, the successor of Muzuta Azrael, is just as hateful as his predecessor but without any of his seemingly charismatic behavior or intelligence. Leader of the hate group Blue Cosmos, Djbrill takes advantage of the worldwide tragedy of the Colony Drop of Junius 7 to plunge Earth and the PLANTs into a new war with a nuclear attack in the colonies. Continuing the Extended Program and brainwashing Mu La Flaga, he unleashes the Destroy—piloted for one of the Extended—in Eurasia, destroying many cities. Firing the Requiem and personally killing a million of Coordinators, Djbrill congratulates himself. Cowardly abandoning his allies once things get hard while entertaining plans to rule the world, Djbrill is a petty genocidal bully with the resources of a state, standing in sharp contrast to his sympathetic rival Durandal.
  • Yuna Roma Seiran is a noble of Orb who becomes Cagalli's fiancee due to an Arranged Marriage agreed to in the past. Antagonizing his fiancee and mistrusting her allies, Yuna manipulates Cagalli into accepting an alliance with the Earth Alliance despite her unwillingness until she leaves Orb to join to the Three Ship Alliance. Attempting to win a reputation within the Earth Alliance, Yuna constantly sacrifices his own forces in vain attempts while blaming his failures on others, unable to admit that Cagalli abandoned him for his cowardice and impulsivity. Giving refuge to the above-mentioned Djbrill while pathetically trying to hide it, the Seiran's family causes Orb to be invaded by ZAFT. Arrested for treason after believing that Cagalli would save him, Yuna dies trying to escape from a battle that he caused.
• The Banana Splits:
  • Stevie is the token human of the Banana Splits television series. A mean alcoholic, Stevie torments the animatronics with the knowledge that their show was to be cancelled before becoming the first to fall victim to their killing spree when a lollipop prop is lodged down his throat.
  • Andy is the studio executive of Taft Studios who was indirectly responsible for the Splits' spree by cancelling the show for no other reason than considering it boring. He gets the worst death at the hands of the animatronics when he won the "banana split".
  • Mitch is the husband of Beth Williams and the father of Austin and Harley. Irritated that his wife was giving his sons more attention, he has an affair with a coworker before attempting to apologize to his wife after getting ran over by Snorky's Banana Buggy.
• Moral Orel: The town of Moralton is set in a Crapsaccharine World where many of the denizens mask their true intentions behind a veil of religious convictions. Of those individuals, these two are the absolute worst:
  • Clay is the abusive patriarch of the Puppington family who insults and mistreats those around him as a means of boosting his self-worth regardless of it being good or bad. He reveals his true colors when he shot his son in the legs and then drinking the rubbing alcohol in the first aid kit. While claiming to have no recollection of the incident, Clay later takes pride in what he did when his son was assisting Miss Censordoll when she was running for mayor. Despite having a sympathetic upbringing in the form of his mother dying when he was a child and his father resenting him for it — and getting goaded into a marriage he did not want — Clay nevertheless refuses to acknowledge his own faults, instead pushing the blame onto others, especially in his attempts of molding Orel into becoming like him.
  • Cecil Creepler is an ice cream man who sells biblical-themed ice cream to Moralton's youth. In Alone, Creepler is exposed as a Serial Rapist who sexually assaulted 7 dark-haired women and later rapes and impregnates schoolteacher Agnes Sculptham when she used herself as bait.
• The Woman: Chris Cleek is a corrupt country lawyer who kidnaps the eponymous feral woman, claiming that he wants to civilize her when he actually rapes and tortures her for his own pleasure. Cleek is also a toxic misogynist, striking his wife for crossing him and repeatedly raping his daughter until she became pregnant. He then feeds her teacher to her dogs and his eyeless daughter whom he kept locked away in the barn.
• Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg: For all the moral ambiguity of the Second American Civil War, these individuals and groups within the American Union State are the worst of the worst.
  • William Dudley Pelley and his Silver Legion are easily the most despicable faction within the American Union State. If he seizes power from Long with the help of the Prohibition Party, Pelley will turn America into a white supremacist Christian fundamentalist nation through enforcing Jim Crow all across America and bringing back slavery. He also permanently cripples the American population by banning all vaccines, leaving large amounts of the population crippled by polio.
  • The War Powers Committee are little better, being a committee of businessmen seeking to enforce corporate dominance over America at the expense of the poor. During the Civil War, they back the American Union State, the Federal Government and the Pacific States as a means of destroying the Combined Syndicates of America despite officially backing the American Union State. If they overthrow Huey Long using their frontman, General Van Horn Moseley, they will greatly empower the rich and American corporations while purging Combined Syndicates remnants, labour unions and left wing activists, while barring immigrants suspected of Syndicalist leanings from immigrating to America.
• End Roll: While Russell himself is a sympathetic character despite being a Serial Killer, the same cannot be said for his Abusive Parents. His father was a horrible drunk who made Russell buy him beer and beat him often. He also cheated on his wife with Russel's older Only Friend Yumi, and eventually killed her, causing Russel to snap and kill his parents. His dream world counterpart, the Toxic One, is a vile monster that terrorizes Nameless Town and is still disturbingly attracted to the dream version of Yumi. Russell's mother, meanwhile, was neglectful, preferring to spend her time cheating on her husband with several men. When Yumi was murdered, she just watched, uncaring. In the dream world, she appears as the Indecent One, the source of the monsters within the dream world. In the final dungeon, she taunts Russel about him murdering his friends and constantly insults him, and various aspects of their encounter imply that she outright molested him. Utterly uncaring of anything beyond their own hedonistic pleasures, Russell's parents are the reason he grew up to be the twisted boy he is.
• A Nightmare on Elm Street: Prior to the Villain Decay he underwent in the sequels, Wes Craven intended Fred Krueger to be a dreadful, irredeemable monster of the lowest order. Implied to have been a child rapist in addition to a murderer, he claimed over 20 young victims in life. To further make him stand out from other iconic slasher villains, he revels in bullying his victims in whatever way he can, tormenting them with the images of their dead friends.

Walker, Gundam trio, Saesuga and Manager

Jamitov due to misinterpreting authorial intent. According to the Japanese wiki and the Srw wiki, the Zeta Gundam novel, while non canon hinted that Jamitov wasn’t really an earth supremacist and sympathized with the idea that humans have to move towards space but wanted to self destruct the federation facilitate a mass migration to space.

The second or third Zeta movie also has Jamitov express some disgust at bask’s actions. It also hints that Bask was behind Blex’s assassination.

The novelization and the third Zeta movie was by Tomino himself rather than some other author, so there goes authorial intent. By contrast according to Japanese Wikipedia Tomino flat out shouted “good” when Bask died and other Titans were presented as disgusted by Bask.

Overall Tomino intended Jamitov to be the Degwin to Bask’s Gihren but it didn’t fell through.

A comparable situation is with Katejina from Victory Gundam, a character that appears to be a hate sink from the horrible acts she commits and was on the CM list for some time and people keep pointing to an interview that Tomino said where death was too good for her that never existed....however it turns out Tomino wanted Katejina to be seen more sympathetically and viewed her as redeemable.

I could see Jamitov specifically counting in 0083 through considering the slant that’s sympathetic to Zeon there. I might have to do an revised effortpost on Jamitov highlighting the side material and authorial intent in more detail and I have proof and documentation this is the case

Katz and later on Quess aren’t hate sinks at all, just major scrappies. I will any effort to ep them.

Franklin Biden and Yazan. Maybe ep Jamican too.

Edited by xie323 on Sep 16th 2019 at 8:51:28 AM

Don't worry, I certainly wouldn't EP Katz or Sarah.

For Akame Ga Kill...Well, that's actually my opinions.

• Prime Minister Honest: Easy Yes. Dude completely shows his utter depravity.

• Syura: Same, he's just as vile as his father. Add that he got a relatively pathetic death in the manga and seal the deal.

• Enshin and Champ: Champ is easy yes. the Other Wild Hunt guys...we see.

• Esdeath: Easy cut, she has tons of sympathetic moments.

• Aria: Uh...she's a case, she would work fine on her own, but in this series...she really don't stand much.

Also, I might have to EP Uncle Bill from Akame ga Kill Zero

Thoughts on my interpretation of the authorial intent. Like I think the authorial intent is much more murkier wrt Jamitov than Bask, where you actually have a record of Tomino actually shouting with joy when he killed Bask off and the show showing everyone as disgusted with him and in the compilation movies Jamitov himself is disgusted with Bask, who is implied to be the one that kills Blex Forer unilaterally.

If this was a case where the novels and the compilations are made by a different author than yeah Jamitov would be a hate sink. But the novels and the compilation are made by the same author that did the original anime and the original anime does hint towards Jamitov’s novel characterization in episode 21.

I could again see 0083!Jamitov qualifying for HS through mainly due to different author/creator and the fact that we do allow instances where characters are hate sinks for a specific timeframe.

Edited by xie323 on Sep 16th 2019 at 9:06:50 AM

Switching to Jaminov

Mumkhar is next. With less and less characters to propose for Magnificent Bastard and Complete Monster, I plan to be more active here. But while I understand there is misuse of this trope, is there really any need for bureaucracy when the trope is nowhere near as misused as Complete Monster or Magnificent Bastard? Like for obvious keeps, should we even need an EP? And deleting examples for re evaluation and enforcing waiting discussion dates seems a little much imo.

Ideally, a Hate Sink would only need Word of God and the actions to back them up to avoid an Informed Attribute. And technically speaking, the trope is not locked so you could just add Hate Sink without going through the whole EP and voting. That's how some entries like Batman Beyond Joker got in without anyone actually voting on the matter, since nearly every agreed that the explanation elaborate on why Joker's a Hate Sink very well.

With that said, it'll be nice to keep track of who's going up and whose not for record's sake.

Well said, Shadao.

Klavice, with all due respect, I don’t think you get it. This trope may not be YMMV, and it may have been misused less than Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard, but it is still misused, with numerous zero-context examples on the Hate Sink subpages we still need to go through, plus we need to alphabetize; additionally, since this trope can be played with, although we don’t always state how in the entries, we need to adress these questions.

Part of the reason this thread exists is so that people are encouraged to look at the nuances of author intent with regards to this trope. Not every HS candidate is such an obvious keeper.

As for the entries we still need to sift through, the ones that are all “you can’t hate x, but you can hate y” and all that crap? Rewrites should go through the drafts, and give as much context as necessary. As for those entries that waste their time talking about other characters that are not Hate Sinks, even if they give enough context, those need to be rewritten as well.

There are so many ZCEs of this trope, it’s not even funny.

This trope is more complex then you seem to give it credit for, Klavice, and you need to realize that there is a reason that I hollered the thread and upgraded it to the Long Term/Perpetual fora: because this trope is still misused, and still will be until the cows come home.

If things were to get worse, I would even consider having the subpages locked.

So, no; we will not stop the effortpost and voting process, we will not give up on this thread, and we will not stop doing anything in this thread which has worked so far. If you continue making these suggestions, I may have to holler the mods.

By the way, since there was already a writeup on the main Hate Sink page, I went ahead and expanded it for both the Manager and Mr. Kobe, another character who is just as bad (and already had a substantial writeup). This is the improved version, and I will post this on the main page for the work as well:

• Happy Sugar Life: In a series full of psychotic characters, these two make even Psycho Lesbian Satou look like a saint in comparison.
  • The Manager of the Princess Imperial, the antagonist of the first episode, initially seems to be Satou's Benevolent Boss. In truth, the manager is a narcissistic Attention Whore who becomes envious of Satou for being well-received by her co-workers. When Taiyou Mitsuboshi, a teen boy under her employ, asks Satou out, the manager's ego is so bruised that she proceeds to kidnap him, lock in in a closet for a whole week, and rape him repeatedly throughout, directly leading to Taiyou's Sanity Slippage and turn to darkness. She also orders her employees to sabotage Satou's work to get back at her for daring to catch Taiyou's attention, and, unlike Satou who ultimately dies a tragic death, the Manager receives no punishment beyond having to give Satou full pay. A Bad Boss and remorseless child molester, the Manager was willing to attempt to ruin the lives of a young boy and girl in a feeble attempt to maintain power.
  • Mr. Kobe, the Kobe family patriarch who is Shio and Asahi's father and a major Greater-Scope Villain, stands out as a parental abuser whom even Satou's aunt pales in comparison to. An alcoholic, he spares no love for his wife Yuuna and children, beating them frequently and using them to fuel his unhealthy habits. A flashback would later reveal that he also raped his future wife because she accidentally pushed him, celebrated the death of his own father because it left him with a big inheritance, left his wife and son, and only came back after spending all his money. It is no wonder that Yuuna ran away with Shio, and Asahi rejoiced when he died. A truly nightmarish abuser, Mr. Kobe undoubtedly deserves to be called a demon by Asahi.

Edited by MasterN on Sep 17th 2019 at 12:30:18 PM

I hate to ask this but since Bryce and Monty from 13 reason why were apparently supposed to be "sympathetic" in season 3 . Are we supposed to now adjust their entries.

I'd say so, perhaps note how both stop being this in season 3

And @Klavice

You've asked about this not even a Week ago, Drop it now. You've had issues with Single-Issue Wonk on both the MB and CM threads so please keep that out of here.

If he starts trouble again, we holler the mods.

Make note of how they end up having tragic fates and show hidden depths.

Please add the entries into the Hate Sink Drafts in Shadao’s sig line.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 17th 2019 at 4:07:55 AM

I actually never got a chance to make Bryce and Monty's write-ups yet (was too busy). Anyway funny enough I had sent Shadao that same question about Monty just an hour ago. Anyway this is Monty's actor's thoughts on Monty and his fate:

Question: How do you hope Monty would be remembered?

"I hope people will remember him as a complex kid who was trying to figure himself out, like anyone else. … It shouldn’t have happened to him. No matter what he did, he was a human, and this shouldn’t have happened. He did have this tough home life, and this secret he was keeping, and he was alone."

Question: Were you sad that Bryce's murder was pinned on Monty?

"It was sad! People did say [that Monty deserved it], but I was just hoping it was honest. It was never a redemption arc, it was more so to humanize him in ways and say, 'yeah, he did horrible things, but maybe, the circumstances of his past, and his family life, affected that.' But yeah, [fans] were sad which was kind of a relief in a lot of ways.. It's like we took this journey together and yes, you hated me, and I was on your side when you hated me, but also I'm glad you came around at the end.

I can feel for Monty and his story because, at the end of the day, the one thing I want people to take from his story is empathy. You don't really know what's going on behind closed doors. You can make assumptions about people all day, but all the time you really have no clue what's going on. And that can be the person at the restaurant who is serving you your food. It could be the person you bump into on the street. Or your classmate. It's just easy to judge someone based on their actions, but really, if you dig a little deeper, you'll find a commonality between all of us, because you don't know what's happening."

Question: How were the scenes with Monty's father important?

"I definitely think that he is a product of his environment and his home life. His relationship with his father really plays into that. Maybe he would've been more open to his sexuality or exploring had he had a loving family like Tony's. It's pretty sad because it's a specific story, but this happens in households all over the world. And you hear stories of turbulent relationships [with teenagers] going through this discovery of their sexuality and growing into themselves and their parents might not be as accepting or open minded. And that would be hard, that would be very hard, because all you want to do at the end of the day is you wanna be yourself. When you're a kid trying to become that person, you really do need the support of the people around you. That means a lot and Monty didn't necessarily have that. I think up until the point of hooking up with Winston, he wouldn't have ever entertained the idea that he was attracted to men. So it was like kind of like Winston was the key of his exploration."

In that case? We may have to cut Monty, unless other creators have stated that he was supposed to be hated prior.

....

Holy crap.

Was this show really trying to give the Not Evil, Just Misunderstood route to a Freaking Rapist.

Well, regardless of what the audience think of Monty, author's intent is the only thing that matters for Hate Sink.

However, I will say that this is the actor's perspective. What about the writer's perspective? An actor is supposed to get into the mindset of the character, but the writer determines how the character will be seen as. Remember, a character doesn't have to see themselves as evil to be Hate Sink. Shou Tucker anyone?

It also serves as a reminder for future EPs, always get the author's word if possible.

Edited by Shadao on Sep 17th 2019 at 6:57:51 AM

He still acknowledges that Monty isn't a good person by any means. I think at one point in the interview he even called him one of television's worst bullies and that he definitely deserved jail time just not being killed or framed.

I think what he is trying to say is that internalized homophobia and a father who regularly abuses you and doesn't even support who you are is a bad combination for a child to grow up in. His actions are awful but there are two sides to every story.

But yeah, this show has pretty much become the Netflix version of Steven Universe. At least Bryce and Monty weren't redeemed like the Diamonds though.

Marcus Cole didn't have any redeeming qualities. I will probably effortpost him.

Hey, at least Aquamarine didn't turn good.

@Shadao, Isn't an actor considered one of the creators? They tell you the mindset of the character, but they also give an overall perspective of how the character is seen.

they don't write the Charachter though.

I read awhile back for X men days of Future past that Peter dinklage and Bryan singer had differing views on Dinklages Charachter Trasks motives in that movie.

Any comments regarding the Akame page?

Mostly agree with your verdicts.

Edited by AustinDR on Sep 17th 2019 at 10:37:12 AM

Speaking of Akame Ga Kill... Opinions on Seryu?

Who?