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Hate Sink cleanup

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The main concern of a Hate Sink is whether the narrative treats the character as someone intended to be despised.

The character in question must actually display detestable qualities, and be hated by other characters at least, or treated by the narrative like someone you are supposed to hate. The author's declared intent cements an example, but is not needed if the narrative itself treats the character as someone who is supposed to be hated.

A Hate Sink may have charismatic traits, a troubled past, or complexity, but in order for this trope to be in effect, such traits must be de-emphasized by the narrative in favour of their detestable traits.

Please note that we do not use Effort Posts.

Edited by gjjones on Dec 3rd 2020 at 7:43:25 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#1451: Sep 11th 2019 at 9:19:37 PM

After a few comments left on my Woobie cleanup I have thought this cleanup also doesn't need the bureaucratic treatment as just like Woobie, Hate Sink is a fairly simple trope. We don't really need to vote on examples here because there isn't nearly as much misuse as Complete Monster or Magnificent Bastard. Hate Sink is simple: A villain or Jerkass that has hateable qualities with nothing cool about them. I don't think we need to do much beyond cleaning up obvious misuse and occasionally give lengthier writeups if needed.

If a character has Sympathetic qualities we cut them. If they aren't a flat character and have plenty of depth to them, we remove them. If the author intended us to hate them, we keep them.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#1452: Sep 12th 2019 at 1:13:59 AM

[tup] to those I missed. Will write up Snoke and Scar hopefully before the week is over.

[up] If that's your opinion it's fine, but I prefer the way we do it like this.

Plus, I disagree with some of that. A HS can have sympathetic or not be a Flat Character,it depends on where the emphasis is and how it's done. Clay from moral orel is a perfect example of how to do a complex HS.

And they can have cool traits as well, look at Cinder and Adam from RWBY. I could have sworn we've been over this part with you Actually.

An EP makes it far Easier to deal with all the above issues IMO.

And while it wasn't as Bad as CM or MB, this cleanup was started cause it was Abused A lot. With numerous Charachters being listed here for being C Ms or Scrappies

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 12th 2019 at 2:07:26 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#1453: Sep 12th 2019 at 4:13:01 AM

Hate Sink is not a YMMV trope, so we don't cut a character for gaining redeeming qualities or depth; if a character is portrayed by the narrative in a personally despicable light for any period of time, they get an entry noting how long in the work they make the cut. A character can have depth and redeeming qualities, and as Kylo said, that STILL does not mean we cut them.

The entire reason there is an effortpost format for this trope is so that we can address anything that casts a shadow of a doubt on the author's intent.

This trope is very much dependent on EMPHASIS. That is to say, little to no attempt is made to downplay their despicable behaviour.

With all due respect, Klavice, this is a cleanup thread. We are voting on candidates whether you think we have to or not. The fact of the matter is that this trope has been subjected to plenty of misuse, and at the very least there needs to be an understanding of author intent on the part of those voting, at least from the effortpost.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#1454: Sep 12th 2019 at 5:18:45 AM

Got a candidate I just submitted to the CM thread. Guess who?

What's the work?

Les traces du passé is a French-written horror Web Original Fiction one-shot written by Lawliette.

In this story, the two main protagonists, Ariana and Tiana Weiss went on vacation to try and move on from their parents' tragic deaths a few years before. However, things went badly as ghosts choose to "play" with them, and by "playing", we're talking about psychological torture and trying to drive them to suicide.

However... They aren't our candidates. Our candidate is a nasty One-Scene Wonder Posthumous Character who is mentioned in one scene, but whose personality and acts makes her despicable enough to be worth a look for me.

Who is Sister Jeanne Belanger? What has she done?

Back in 1963, Madame Jeanne Belanger was a nun in charge of an orphanage she founded with the Church's support. However, behind her faithful, kindly facade? She was a sick, twisted Knight Templar who hurt the children in horrific ways. Wanna know how? Tortured literally all day, whipped into unconsciousness, starved and dehydrated.

But wait, there's more!

Belanger, under the guise of "correcting them", she would forcibly bring the children to priests just as depraved as her, who would promptly rape and enslave them.

When Sophie, one of the orphans, organized other children to try and make their escape, they were stopped at last second by Belanger... Who promptly locked them in a cave and watched as they starved to death. She then kept on happily adopting and torturing children until her mysterious demise. Luc De la Courbillère, a priest who lived at the same time and tried to expose her crimes without success (due to pressure from the Papacy), suggests that the children's ghosts enacted their own vengeance.

What makes her personally despicable ?

For someone who is focused on for only one scene, she could give Kenta Ayatsuri a run for his money in the Would Hurt a Child department. Rape by Proxy, enslavement, starvation, dehydration and torture of countless kids she was supposed to take care of ? Largely above the rest.

True, the main antagonists of the fiction itself are the ghosts who constantly hunt and psychologically torture the Weiss sisters ... But they are the children's ghosts who were unable to move on after what Belanger did to them. While what they did is definitely Disproportionate and Misplaced Retribution, this is nowhere near what Belanger did to them. Hell, the Weiss sisters are more horrified by her crimes by what the ghosts did to them and releases De la Courbillère's diary, thus revealing her crimes.

Freudian Excuse? Evil Is Cool? Complexity?

Hashe.

Verdict?

One of the easiest keepers I've ever got to deal with.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Sep 12th 2019 at 2:21:03 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#1455: Sep 12th 2019 at 5:38:28 AM

[tup] Twisted Sister Jeanne.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#1457: Sep 12th 2019 at 9:41:34 AM

Never mind; will discuss the show in about two weeks.

Edited by AustinDR on Sep 12th 2019 at 10:11:11 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#1458: Sep 12th 2019 at 10:32:58 AM

So my first fan fiction Hate Sink example is from The Loud House fanfic What is a Person Worth?, one of many fanfics to spawn from the divisive episode No Such Luck, which has long since become a dead genre, but this is considered one of the better ones for being a Decon-Recon Switch of the series and meant to be a more realistic take on the episode. My biggest gripe is how preachy this fic can get with all these characters giving big, insightful, speeches despite most of them being at the 11 year age bracket. I wouldn't mind too much but they break the "show don't tell" rule excessively.

The character in question is a villain barely relevant to the main conflict, so I'll make the conflict quick; the protagonist Lincoln Loud has had issues with his family following the NSL fiasco and leaves home where he and his family have to make peace with each other. Okay ? Okay. Now on to the fics villain. His name is Chandler.

Who is Chandler ? What does he do ?

Chandler is a canon character who the fandom pretty much designates as being Lincoln's archenemy when it comes to fanfics because his debut episode had him being a arrogant seeming, male Alpha Bitch type who mooched off of Lincoln at a restaurant his sister Lori was working at, in exchange for an invite to a party. From such fanfics tend to portray him as being the villain of Lincoln's life, despite his next appearance having them on civil terms and even having a friendly conversation. Anyways, this is no exception in making him a villain.

Chandler in this fic is depicted as constantly bullying and picking on Lincoln for having to wear a squirrel mascot costume his family thinks is a good luck charm (long story). After Lincoln later runs away from home and later hangs out with his friend Clyde at a park, they are cornered by Chandler and his friends who try to hassle them again, this time with them trying Lincoln to force Lincoln to swallow acorns. Lincoln's little sister Lana catches these boys trying to shove nuts in her brother's mouth, so she tries to stand up to the bullied by flinging mud at her. Chandler's response is to grab Lana by her suspenders and throw her into a nearby bond, laughing at her humiliation. This presses Lincoln's suppressed Berserk Button as he beats the ever loving shit out of Chandler and his friends, leaving him whining that "It was just a prank!"

Now Lincoln's fight with Chandler, and Chandler's attack on Lana was caught on camera and goes viral; Chandler's reputation falls apart on account of physically assaulting a six year old girl and getting beaten up by his bullying target, while Lincoln becomes the new popular boy at school (unfortunately, this doesn't get to Lincoln's head because our hero has to be humble). You think Chandler would have learned his lesson but no, he is so bitter and humiliated he wants to ruin Lincoln's life. Chandler meets an befriends a boy named Connor Pingrey, who also has a small rivalry with Lincoln and resembles him somewhat. As it so happens, Lincoln is getting closer with his girlfriend Ronnie Anne, and Connor develops a romance with Christina, a former crush of Lincoln's. When Connor accidentally dyes his hair white, making him closer resemble Lincoln, Chandler catches him on a date with Christina, takes a pic and uses photoshop to frame Lincoln for cheating on Ronnie Anne, and give him the reputation of a two timer. But Reality Ensues (as it often does in this fic) and the pics are quickly exposed as fakes. Also Connor turns against Chandler since his relationship with Christina also takes a downturn because of him. So Chandler moves on to plan B...

Chandler, being a rich boy, hires out a group of jocks to simply beat the shit out of Lincoln, and Connor to tie up loose ends. At the stories climax, Lincoln and Connor are chased down to a park were they are attacked by jocks with bats, as well as two other, more Barbaric bullies Lincoln angered earlier. Lincoln's sister Lynn and Ronnie Anne step in to help and in the ensuing, bloody fight, Lynn and Ronnie Anne are hospitalized for some time. After the perpetrators are arrested, Chandler initially gets off scott free...until Lincoln, his sisters and friends plan an elaborate revenge prank on him. The prank itself consists of Chandler being kicked in the face by a spring-loaded boot, doused in water from the school sprinklers, covered in hay, being chased by 20 crows, getting a Groin Attack by Ronnie Anne, before being left to the crows. And all of this in front of practically the whole school, with dozens of students snapping pictures or filming his misfortune.

Evil Is Cool or Complexity ?

Notta. While the fic seems to teach the message that Humans Are Flawed, can make mistakes but that doesn't make them bad people, Chandler is the exception. He is pretty much the only main character not presented with any depth, redeeming or sympathetic qualities.

Chandler pretty much exists here solely so we can have an actual villain, and is characterized here as an egotistical bully who has zero issues when it comes to physically attacking a six year old girl and when he gets his teeth beaten and looses his reputation because of it, rather than learn his lesson or accept responsibility, he comes up with a spiteful revenge plan to ruin Lincoln's relationship and reputation. And failing that ? Hires out jocks to beat Lincoln up in a fight that culminated in both Lincoln's sister and girlfriend hospitalized.

It's pretty much amusing he get characterized as a villain here because his only other canonical appearance has him on friendlier terms with Lincoln, and that episode aired around the time the story was almost finished. Not that it stops Chandler from fics continuing to villainize him as Lincoln's nemesis. Hell, I recently read an unrelated fic where Chandler is worse than he is here.

Edited by Beast on Sep 12th 2019 at 4:09:50 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#1459: Sep 12th 2019 at 11:00:40 AM

I understand. I'll still vote and propose candidates here. I was just concerned because some tropes are getting the b'crat treatment when they aren't nearly as misused as Complete Monster or MB. But yes I can see the merit in this thread. But enough of that. Think I'll vote yes to everybody I missed counting the above French story's Chandler.

Edited by Klavice on Sep 12th 2019 at 11:01:14 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#1460: Sep 12th 2019 at 11:21:43 AM

  • The Banana Splits:
    • Stevie is the token human of the Banana Splits television series. A mean alcoholic, Stevie torments the animatronics with the knowledge that their show was to be cancelled before becoming the first to fall victim to their killing spree when a lollipop prop is lodged down his throat.
    • Andy is the studio executive of Taft Studios who was indirectly responsible for the Splits' spree by cancelling the show for no other reason than considering it boring. He gets the worst death at the hands of the animatronics when he won the "banana split".
    • Mitch is the husband of Beth Williams and the father of Austin and Harley. Irritated that his wife was giving his sons more attention, he has an affair with a coworker before attempting to apologize to his wife after getting ran over by Snorky's Banana Buggy.
  • Moral Orel: The town of Moralton is set in a Crapsaccharine World where many of the denizens mask their true intentions behind a veil of religious convictions. Of those individuals, these two are the absolute worst:
    • Clay is the abusive patriarch of the Puppington family who insults and mistreats those around him as a means of boosting his self-worth regardless of it being good or bad. He reveals his true colors when he shot his son in the legs and then drinking the rubbing alcohol in the first aid kit. While claiming to have no recollection of the incident, Clay later takes pride in what he did when his son was assisting Miss Censordoll when she was running for mayor. Despite having a sympathetic upbringing in the form of his mother dying when he was a child and his father resenting him for it — and getting goaded into a marriage he did not want — Clay nevertheless refuses to acknowledge his own faults, instead pushing the blame onto others, especially in his attempts of molding Orel into becoming like him.
    • Cecil Creepler is an ice cream man who sells biblical-themed ice cream to Moralton's youth. In Alone, Creepler is exposed as a Serial Rapist who sexually assaulted 7 dark-haired women and later rapes and impregnates schoolteacher Agnes Sculptham when she used herself as bait.
  • The Woman: Chris Cleek is a corrupt country lawyer who kidnaps the eponymous feral woman, claiming that he wants to civilize her when he actually rapes and tortures her for his own pleasure. Cleek is also a toxic misogynist striking his wife for crossing him and repeatedly raping his daughter until she became pregnant. He then feeds her teacher to her dogs and his eyeless daughter whom he kept locked away in the barn.

Edited by AustinDR on Sep 12th 2019 at 11:32:55 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#1461: Sep 12th 2019 at 1:27:31 PM

Nice. Also, [tup] for Chandler.

Anyone wanna help me with my Seager writeup? I tend to be good at effortposts, but not so good at cutting them down to writeup form. If anyone can volunteer, let me know so I can PM you.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#1462: Sep 12th 2019 at 2:09:35 PM

So you're saying a Hate Sink can have a sympathetic backstory as long as it doesn't distract from their hateable qualities? I mean Clay from Moral Orel was approved, so why not another character with a sympathetic backstory?

Mumkhar is coming soon. Hopefully I can remember to do him. I'll also try Dickson too. I was also thinking of effortposting Redd White and Dahlia too unless someone wants to do them instead? I'd happily cede one of the two to someone.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#1463: Sep 12th 2019 at 4:17:20 PM

[tup] Chandler.

[up] A Hate Sink's negative qualities are generally supposed to intentionally overshadow any sympathetic qualities.

Like I said, it's all about what is EMPHASIZED by the narrative.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 12th 2019 at 7:20:02 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#1464: Sep 12th 2019 at 8:02:43 PM

That's the issue...Clay's backstory would be sympathetic...if it wasn't for the fact that he goes so far and beyond that excuse, he now only exists to cause others misery as a means of making himself feel better about himself. He is simply put an asshole and knows it, but will not fess up to his actions nor seek forgiveness.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#1465: Sep 13th 2019 at 1:37:45 AM

[tup] Chandler

  • Savaged: Trey is a redneck from a long line of anti-Native American serial killers. First introduced running his latest victim down with a truck, he abducts a deaf woman who witnessed the crime. After binding her with barbed wire, Trey rapes her before killing her to prevent police attention. After Zoe comes back with the help of an Apache ghost, Trey forces his friends to help him fight her on pain of death.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#1466: Sep 13th 2019 at 2:55:29 PM

Would Clay really be a hate sink? Authorial intent is a bit fuzzy here. Iirc had there been another season apparently he would have gotten a sort of redemption. It might be a situation like Katejina Loos from Gundam(might have a Gundam example coming up soon that was overlooked) that people perceive as a hate sink due to misinterpretations of the authorial intent but isn't.

Easy [tup] Snoke. Even worse if you take the interpretation that he's supposed to represent a child predator and someone who abuses mentally ill people. Not gonna speculate but if Kylo ends up as a full on CM or hate sink himself, it's not gonna sit well with me for this reason.

@Master N: Zip it about the supposed leftist propaganda of the ST, it's way too sensitive for any thread

Edited by xie323 on Sep 13th 2019 at 3:50:33 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#1467: Sep 13th 2019 at 2:57:58 PM

No. The show was cancelled after three seasons.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#1468: Sep 13th 2019 at 3:02:08 PM

But that's the thing. Hate sink is based on authorial intent, and if the author intended for the character to redeem themselves, but it didn't properly pan out or the show was cut short before this storyline could be put into action, I don't really see how the character could be a hate sink.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#1469: Sep 13th 2019 at 3:05:58 PM

There was no intended redemption story. You're thinking of Ignored Epiphany.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#1470: Sep 13th 2019 at 3:06:23 PM

[up][up] this trope can be Played With or Zig-Zagged and such. The fact Clay would eventually get better Dosent alter how he would have been beforehand.

This seems Complex, but the Clay from the parts of the show they aired is a HS, Had it continued then he would have grown out of being one.

Edited by Kylotrope on Sep 13th 2019 at 3:07:41 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1471: Sep 13th 2019 at 3:24:31 PM

I thought Redd White was already approved.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#1472: Sep 13th 2019 at 3:41:38 PM

Ok we'll settle it at that.

Found this on Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg

Goering is one from what I remember despite his single redeeming quality but I'll EP him whenever I can. Cordreanu isn't one yet, he does nothing particularly evil onscreen and what he does is entirely player filled in headcanon, Informed Attribute and Inferred Holocaust, and readings of the character based on the historical Cordreanu(who's a really nasty dude) that's only alluded to at bare minimum. He could qualify as such in the future when Romania gets content.

I was the person that effortposted Pelley and the War Powers Committee and I forgot to post them so here are their effortposts:

  • Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg: For all the moral ambiguity of the Second American Civil War, these individuals and groups within the American Union State are the worst of the worst
    • William Dudley Pelley and his Silver Legion are easily the most despicable faction within the American Union State. If he seizes power from Long with the help of the Prohibition Party, Pelley will America into a white supremacist Christian fundamentalist nation through enforcing Jim Crow all across America and bringing back slavery. He also permanently cripples the American population by banning all vaccines, leaving large amounts of the population crippled by polio.
    • The War Powers Committee are little better, being a committee of businessmen seeking to enforce corporate dominance over America at the expense of the poor. During the Civil War, they back the American Union State, the Federal Government and the Pacific States as a means of destroying the Combined Syndicates of America despite officially backing the American Union State. If they overthrow Huey Long using their frontman, General Van Horn Moseley, they will greatly empower the rich and American corporations while purging Combined Syndicates remnants, labour unions and left wing activists, while barring immigrants suspected of Syndicalist leanings from immigrating to America.

Edited by xie323 on Sep 13th 2019 at 3:49:49 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#1473: Sep 13th 2019 at 7:51:07 PM

Looks nice.

Anyway, here is my writeup for Mr and Mrs Seager (with help from Papyru30). Tell me all what you think:

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#1474: Sep 14th 2019 at 11:55:06 PM

It's like time to get ready for another batch to be put up tomorrow night. If you have any last-minute changes or grammar corrections, please do so now.

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#1475: Sep 15th 2019 at 8:17:15 AM

Overdue writeup time. Sorry, my laptop was on its way out and I had to get the battery replaced, which took longer than I thought it would. I'm also kinda thinking that Kristen's mother from Nightmare 3 and 4 might count, but I'll leave it be for now. I have Fred Krueger listed under the franchise page, but feel free to change it to the first film.

  • A Nightmare on Elm Street: Prior to the Villain Decay he underwent in the sequels, Wes Craven intended Fred Krueger to be a dreadful, irredeemable monster of the lowest order. Implied to have been a child rapist in addition to a murderer, he claimed over 20 young victims in life. To further make him stand out from other iconic slasher villains, he revels in bullying his victims in whatever way he can, tormenting them with the images of their dead friends.
  • BrainDead: Uncle Les manages to be an even worse person than Vera. He blackmails Lionel into giving him the house and his half of Vera's fortune, attempts to rape Paquita, then leaves her and Lionel to die at the hands of the zombies. He proves himself to be a competent zombie killer, but enjoys the slaughter way more than he should, torturing the zombified Father McGruder by pulling his teeth and boasting about how he's going to dismember an infected woman. In the end, it's quite satisfying to watch Paquita smash his head to bits against the counter.


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