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Hate Sink cleanup

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The main concern of a Hate Sink is whether the narrative treats the character as someone intended to be despised.

The character in question must actually display detestable qualities, and be hated by other characters at least, or treated by the narrative like someone you are supposed to hate. The author's declared intent cements an example, but is not needed if the narrative itself treats the character as someone who is supposed to be hated.

A Hate Sink may have charismatic traits, a troubled past, or complexity, but in order for this trope to be in effect, such traits must be de-emphasized by the narrative in favour of their detestable traits.

Please note that we do not use Effort Posts.

Edited by gjjones on Dec 3rd 2020 at 7:43:25 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#951: Jul 26th 2019 at 3:51:15 AM

Please don't ignore my latest post, guys.

In any case, I'm going to a retreat in the Catskills and will be off for a few days for the most part.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#952: Jul 26th 2019 at 12:33:56 PM

No, I meant not heinous enough to be a Complete Monster as the majority commit genocide either of planets or people in general. While the Queen just kills Crono and Dalton is basically an Ineffectual Sympathetic Villain minus the sympathetic part. So while I'm aware we don't use a heinous standard, I still have to ask: Can a pathetic villain or laughably count if you're not meant to feel for them? I mean if reedemed villains can count, why not a hilariously inept villain?

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#953: Jul 26th 2019 at 2:47:58 PM

I'm not changing my vote on Mysterio. And no, it's not audience reaction, by the way. I legitimately feel the film doesn't play him as a Hate Sink.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#954: Jul 26th 2019 at 2:55:00 PM

He's shown as a manchild. If the film was trying to make him look cool, they failed at that. But that's my opinion.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#955: Jul 26th 2019 at 3:47:05 PM

Hmm sure to mysterio upon thinking about it. Kylo makes some good points there.

I still think Griffith doesn't count as that relies heavily on Alterative Character Intreptation to put him here.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#956: Jul 26th 2019 at 3:59:52 PM

Seeing as, on top of the Manchild thing they have him psychologically torture a teenager with an allusion of his dead father figure after saying he was dead because Peter wasn't good enough. As well as him ruining said teenagers Life all for Petty reasons. I find it very hard to believe he wasn't meant to be a Hate Sink.

But anyway. He got 5 upvotes and 2 downvotes. So....

EDIT:And that makes it 6 upvotes vs One downvote. Thanks Mir.

Mysterio/Quentin Beck, once his true nature is revealed, is shown not to just be evil, but one of the most Loathsome villains in the MCU. He psychologically tortures Peter using allusions as a sick punishment for "Making" him have to kill him. And at the end of the Movie Quentin ruins Peters life simply out of Petty Spite.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jul 26th 2019 at 4:01:24 AM

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Klavice (Elder Troper)
#957: Jul 26th 2019 at 4:25:33 PM

Eh guess I'll upvote Mysterio.

I don't see the problem with having a hate sink be any kind of villain. They need not be a monster to count as stated before and I think Mysterio is just despicable enough to count.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#958: Jul 26th 2019 at 6:19:21 PM

I'm still a yea to Mysterio. I think...The narrative treats him as one of the most loathsome character in the movie. Sure, there are some despicable characters who are ended up loved by the audience (Frollo, I'm looking at you) but what seals the deal for me? Is his Psychopatic Manchild personality and how the narrative treats him. I could go either way but I'm keeping my yes

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#959: Jul 26th 2019 at 6:21:04 PM

[tdown] to Mysterio. I'm not seeing a compelling argument that he's Hate Sink-ier than any other villain.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#960: Jul 26th 2019 at 6:38:01 PM

[up] I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean exactly. Are you saying his actions are just typical villain stuff?

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HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#961: Jul 26th 2019 at 6:45:06 PM

I'm relatively new to this thread, so apologies if I'm re-treading old ground. But looking at the first paragraph of Hate Sink:

A Hate Sink is a character whose intended role in the story (the role the authors made for him/her) is to be so despicable that the audience wants him or her to fail just as much as they want the heroes to succeed.

Obviously questions of authorial intent are always tricky absent clear Word of God, but... I'm just not seeing it in this case. Beck strikes me as more of a Love to Hate kind of villain. When he frames Spider-Man, the intended audience reaction doesn't seem to be, "oh, that dastardly bastard! How dare he?!" but one of, "Oh, holy crap, this guy really shook up the status quo! How's Spidey going to handle this?"

We're excited to see what happens next, not mad at this jerky jerk for being such a jerk. That doesn't appear to be an unintended reaction, but exactly what the film was going for.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#962: Jul 26th 2019 at 6:46:52 PM

Those reactions aren't Mutually Exclusive. The intended reaction seems to be both.

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HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#963: Jul 26th 2019 at 6:48:41 PM

I guess I just don't see it that way, and I'm not sure what either of us can do to convince the other. We're all, on some level, trying to do some authorial mind-reading here I suppose.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#964: Jul 26th 2019 at 6:52:41 PM

I guess that's understandable.

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Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#965: Jul 26th 2019 at 7:53:34 PM

[up][up] Speaking of authorial intent, I decided to look into the developers' thoughts on Mysterio:

Kevin Feige said:

Getting into spoiler territory, so you’ll be careful how you use this. How exciting for us to actually do Mysterio. The fishbowl illusionist who everybody rolls their eyes out in the comics; the green smoke trails, we were like, “We gotta do that. We gotta swirl them around.” Which we really wanted to do, and showcase his illusion powers in a way that it kind of was in the comics always too: science-based, not necessarily magic...

And also [we used the father-son dynamic] to make the turn not just an obvious “Well, of course he’s going to be bad, he’s bad in the comics,” but also to make it more of a heartbreak. Because even though you know on some level it must be coming, you like that relationship so much that it hurts you when it happens.

Seems Kevin Feige wants Mysterio's betrayal to be a heartbreak, which adds to the notion of Mysterio being a Hate Sink.

However, Jake Gyllenhaal doesn't seem to see his character as a Hate Sink. He plays it as if Mysterio does care about Peter and that his intentions were noble deep down. He didn't want Mysterio to be a mustache twirling Card-Carrying Villain. Of course, he may be just getting into the character and we must remember that plenty of Hate Sink characters don't see their actions as wrong (looking at Shou Tucker):

Jon Watts:

I think everyone was pretty on board with Mysterio early on. The opportunity to do some amazing visuals was really intriguing to me. The question was just how were we going to reinvent him for this film while still being true to the character.

I remember I did this like thumbnail sketch of a little Spider-Man surrounded by shards of broken glass that are showing various versions of his reflection with giant Mysterio looming above him. That’s where we started for that sequence. In a black void. There’s very similar comic cover with a tiny Spider-Man. He’s in an amusement park with a giant Mysterio looming over him because he’s fooled Spiderman into thinking that he’s tiny.

I cheated a little bit by having a bunch of fake villains for the first half of the movie to have him take on and “defeat,” only to be brought back to earth by Mysterio. I think the thing that is scary about Mysterio is his ability to shape reality and to control the truth and to make it so people don’t know what’s real and what isn’t. That’s a terrifying idea.

It seems Jon Watts favors Mysterio because of his visual effects and being a critique on society's inability to distinguish illusions from reality. In fact, another article has him saying this:

I wanted Mysterio because, first of all, just the visual possibilities that are opened up by having someone like Mysterio, by having someone who’s like a master of illusions as the main villain, it really opens the door to show people something that they never seen before and to try some really crazy visuals that you might not normally expect in a Spider-Man film.

There's not much on how awful he wants Mysterio to be, but I did find this:

As we developed the movie and figured out what we wanted this character to be, we needed someone who could play a hero essentially for the first half of the movie that you would believe as a new Avenger, almost like a replacement for Tony Stark. For the second half of the movie, he has to be this manipulative, narcissistic villain. This character has to be these two extremes. Jake’s name shot right to the top of the pile. Very few actors could pull that off in a way like Jake did.

You know, talks about Mysterio is starting to remind me of Syndrome from The Incredibles. Both have done despicable actions worthy of a Complete Monster, and both are Heroism Addicts. But if I recall, Syndrome was deemed to not count as a Hate Sink due to having comedic moments and being a Large Ham entertainment. Of course, we could revisit Syndrome if standard changes.

Right now, make of this what you will.

Edited by Shadao on Jul 26th 2019 at 7:56:37 AM

Professorchaos56 Yet another overworked cashier from Trapped in my own head Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Yet another overworked cashier
#966: Jul 27th 2019 at 1:49:50 AM

I have a couple of ideas for candidates from One-Punch Man.

First up: Amai Mask.

Who is he? What has he done?

In the world of One-Punch Man, their is a collective group of superheroes called the Hero Association. Said association divides the heroes into class based on various factors such as strength, power, accomplishments, and popularity. Despite being the being the number one ranked hero in A-class and the most popular hero in the organization, he is decidedly one of the most UN-heroic heroes of the series. When Amai Mask isn't ignoring monster attacks to focus on his career as an "artist", he is routinely murdering monsters even if they are surrendering and are defenseless.

Evil Is Cool? Complexity? Freudian Excuse?

No only does Amai Mask almost consistently stay out of the major fights of the series robbing him of even the visual spectacle that other herows posses (like the similarly overly egotistical hero Tornado for example), he is suppose to on the heroes side, which makes his profoundly poor attitude all the more jarring. His complexity only extends to his obsession with perfectionism which it self is a problem because of the insane standards he holds the other heroes to. As for freudian excuse, zip all.

What makes him personally despicable?

Along with the aforementioned murders of monsters (and once even humans who he knew were just brainwashed because it would be easier), he is very condescending to the other heroes. He chastises the S-class heroes for being unable to save city A even though they had no way to stop Boros from destroying it despite doing nothing to help against the invasion. He even strait up tells them that the reason he remains in A-class is to prevent more people like them from entering S-class.

Author intent:

Amai Mask is very deliberately set up to contrast against the far more heroic heroes. For example when the Deep Sea King attacks, Amai Mask is on the news quickly diverting attention to sell his new album while highest ranking C-class hero Mumen Rider and even lowest ranking A-class hero "Snake Fist" Snek are bravely fighting the monster to protect the defenseless civilians.

Verdict:

I think this sentence from his character page sums it up best. "Tornado flat out tells him that he wasn't included in the strategy meeting before the Monster Association raid because everyone hates him".[tup]

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#968: Jul 27th 2019 at 10:40:52 AM

[tup] Griffith.

[tup] Mysterio.

[tup] Governor.

[tup] Midsomer trio.

Edited by Beast on Jul 27th 2019 at 12:41:24 PM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#969: Jul 27th 2019 at 10:48:41 AM

Random question: Is it possible for a character to be a Hate Sink AND someone audiences Love to Hate? Red Skull has both tropes on his page/the YMMV.

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#970: Jul 27th 2019 at 11:05:26 AM

[up]

Being a Draco in Leather Pants, like Draco Malfoy, or a character people Love to Hate, like Joffrey Baratheon, doesn’t preclude being a Hate Sink; being a Complete Monster, like Haman, certainly doesn't preclude this trope either.

Edited by Stellarvore on Jul 27th 2019 at 2:32:43 PM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#971: Jul 27th 2019 at 11:56:51 AM

  • Midsommar: Christian Hughes is the emotionally distant boyfriend of Dani Ardor who is convinced by his friends Mark and Josh to end the relationship before attending a festival in Sweden. Christian continually pushes Dani to the side from forgetting her birthday to ultimately cheating on her with one of the Harga women, and he even steals Josh's thesis intending on making it his own. Mark is a misogynistic, xenophobic manchild who establishes his unlikability by urinating on an ancestral tree and dismissing it as being insensitive to the Harga culture. Josh is warned to refrain from taking pictures of the Harga's sacred texts but does so anyway in response to Christian stealing the aforementioned thesis. All three men deeply influenced Dani's mental health and life and are given little sympathy when they are sacrificed in the grand festival held every 90 years.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#972: Jul 27th 2019 at 12:22:24 PM

[up][up]Is.....Draco a genuine Hate Sink though. Isnt he played for sympathy occasionally from what I remeber and even redeems himself.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#973: Jul 27th 2019 at 12:31:39 PM

[up]Not sure. I just copied that from the top of this thread.

Edited by Stellarvore on Jul 27th 2019 at 2:35:22 PM

HighCrate Since: Mar, 2015
#974: Jul 27th 2019 at 12:55:03 PM

I guess I might just be foggy on what Hate Sink is actually supposed to be then, because that definition is so broad it could be applied to almost any villain.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#975: Jul 27th 2019 at 5:25:35 PM

[up][up][up] Draco Malfoy is like Dudley. Both are unpleasant characters with no redeeming qualities until around Order of the Phoenix where they confront their own nastiness. It's an inherit issue with Hate Sink in that, like Generic Doomsday Villain, characters can much more Character Development and no longer fit in that category.

We see something similar with Flash Thompson in Spider-Man: Homecoming in that he was a completely a jackass with no hints of redeeming qualities but in the next film, he becomes a lot more sympathetic and comedic. Luckily, we are dealing with a trope that can be played around with.

Villains are always a tricky aspect when it comes to Hate Sink because their role is by default meant to be hated. But I think the way to deal with villainous Hate Sink is to identify their actions with other tropes. Do these villains invoke disgust even among other villains (and I mean disgust, not horror or fear)? Do their actions involve a particular, disproportional pettiness towards a group or protagonist? And was the author trying to invoke or avoid Evil Is Cool? Those are a few examples.

To get an idea on how to identify a villainous Hate Sink, I'll use the Red Skull:

Classic 616 Red Skull is easily a Hate Sink given how he's a Complete Monster who genuinely believes in the Nazi ideology and how his reputation and actions disgust every other villain he meets like Doctor Doom and Magneto. There's never really a moment where Red Skull traded Nazism for something less evil. Often, he only disavows them because they didn't go far enough (and that Marvel editors didn't want to make him sound appeasing to racists).

But MCU Red Skull doesn't really count as a Hate Sink despite also being a Complete Monster because his Nazi ties were completely downplayed, trading in a genuine Nazi for a Piggybacking on Hitler opportunist. He is virtually indistinguishable for a classical 1940s villain plotting to Take Over the World.

Edited by Shadao on Jul 27th 2019 at 5:30:23 AM


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