Hate Sink cleanup

I'd like to propose Onestar's Lady Macbeth type unnamed mate from Warrior Cats A Vision of Shadows, as she basically raised the Big Bad of said series out of hate. My only concern, it's less of a concern and more of a "is this love genuine?" for her ex, but I don't think it would be a problem.

Effortpost?

Looking back, since she does lose all but one of her kittens when trying to meet up with Onestar and he refuses to take her and their son into WindClan because he was worried about her, I think she's too sympathetic to qualify. Now Scourge's brother and sister on the other hand... I could make a case for.

• The original Piccolo Daimao, also known as King Piccolo, is this, which makes sense as he's the literal embodiment of evil. He directly causes the death of Goku's best friend and several other prominent martial artists simply because he's afraid of them, he overthrows the President of the World, and makes all crime completely legal. On top of that, he announces that every year (starting with the current one), he'll destroy a sector of the planet on the anniversary of his rule, for no reason other than because it's evil. As if that weren't enough, during his fight with Goku he intentionally cripples Goku (who, it must be emphasized, is fourteen at the time) by blowing rocks at his arms and legs, breaking them instantly and causing Goku to scream in utter agony. It isn't until Goku defeats him and Daimao is reincarnated into Ma Junior (or simply Piccolo) that his character changes via a redemption arc, and even that wouldn't begin until after Raditz is defeated two arcs later.

This needs to be cut. For one, Toriyama outright stated that King Piccolo is his favorite villain.

to Piccolo.

Honestly, it sounds like King Piccolo is your typical Evil Overlord who loves to be a Card-Carrying Villain. And he doesn't really stand out from the later Dragon Ball villains, especially Frieza who is much worse.

Plus, according to his character page, King Piccolo is A Father to His Men and has the excuse of being Made of Evil as well getting redeemed through his reincarnation, Piccolo.

So for Demon King Piccolo. Cut away!

Edited by Shadao on Jun 23rd 2019 at 7:19:23 AM

To King Piccolo, he never strikes me despicable nor detestable especially compared to Tao or Commander Red despite being worse than them.

Cut away.

King Piccolo.

Edited by AustinDR on Jun 24th 2019 at 1:28:35 AM

Umm, I'm actually not sure that's a cut. That sounds like a textbook case of the audience liking a HS despite authorial intent. Especially sense from clips I saw and the trope page, That version is essentially the embodiment of a Bully, needing people to fear him so he can be strong. And when they aren't scared of him he pathetically gets his ass kicked.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jun 23rd 2019 at 10:59:50 AM

I see. I thought it was that the author's intent was for this rendition of Pennywise to be as hateable as possible, but instead, reception was mainly positive on the audience's part.

Alright, two weeks are up and it's time to put up these entries:

• Arkham Origins' Cold, Cold Heart: While Ferris Boyle is an awful person in Batman: The Animated Series, he did have a point that Victor's experiment was unauthorized. This Boyle has no such excuse and is given far crimes than his animated counterpart. He makes a deal with Victor that he will help him find a cure for Nora in exchange for him developing cryo-weapons, personally assaults Victor when the latter realizes he has no intention of honoring his bargain and refuses to cooperate with him any further, kidnaps Nora (all the while claiming she's his property as cryonic test subject), sadistically taunts a helpless Victor about how he will kill Nora in front of him before killing him, just so he can see her slip away, all the while bashing him in the head, and attempts to kill Batman even though the latter saves his life just so he can erase all evidence of his crimes. Batman punching him unconscious is definitely satisfying as it is well-deserved.
• Cross Ange:
  • The Mana community in general are a bunch of prejudiced, decadent and racist people that resorts to every despicable mindset in order to keep their order and luxurious lifestyle, while other kinds of people like Norma and DRAGONs, had to suffer and be prejudiced horribly for them, with the Norma being considered subhumans and everyone willingly forgetting their times with them in the past and thinking that they're just monsters in disguise. Only a few managed to rise above these sentiments, but those who don't rise above it will refuse to learn and continue being entitled Dirty Cowards when things don't go their way or when hit with reality. Even their origins that Embryo implanted such mindset on them is outweighed with how disgusting their unrepentant racism mindset is. Such decadence eventually made Embryo decide that the world is beyond salvation and proceeded with his Omnicidal Maniac Restart the World plot, and no one cares about them when their civilization collapsed with the lack of Mana, as if karma finally catching up to their sins. They make up the majority of 'humans' in the setting, but it's clear that the narrative wanted to say that they are extremely far from the ideal humanity when the Normas or DRAGO Ns act more humane than them.
• Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex:
  • Despite their brief screentime, CIA agents Suzuki Sato and Tanaka Watanabe stand out as particularly detestable. They manipulate Section 9 in an attempt to cover up a brutal war crime without any moral qualms or empathy and later attempt to help Kazundo Gohda, who has caused multiple murders and atrocities, defect and evade justice for his crimes. Once the true nature of the agents emerges, everyone in Section 9 is disgusted at them, with Batou punching Sato in rage and later insulting Watanabe the next time they meet.
  • Kazundo Gouda, the head of the Japanese Cabinet Intelligence Service and the mastermind behind the Individual Eleven, is a truly loathsome man. Despite his status as a very powerful bureaucrat, Gouda desires even greater power and will stop to any moral low to gain it. Devoid of charisma or empathy, Gouda acts rude and condescending to his peers despite his own mediocre skills, manipulates both the government and the refugees for his own ends, and directly causes multiple mass murders and a coup attempt just to satiate his ego. Even before the full scale of his atrocities are revealed, the members of Section 9 instantly dislike and distrust him, with Batou taking great pleasure in making Gouda scream in terror by grabbing him while jumping from a helicopter. Once Gouda's crimes are revealed, Section 9 are repulsed by his actions and become openly opposed to him.
• The Liar Princess and the Blind Prince: Despite never appearing onscreen, with their actions only being described by the narrator, the king and queen's abuse and negligence of their son put the plot in motion. When the Prince is accidentally attacked and scarred by the Wolf, the Prince's parents lock away their son in a tower, disgusted by his facial injuries. This makes the Wolf feel guilty even more, and the act of cruelty disgusts her so much, that she makes her plans to heal the prince without considering or caring how the two will be affected by the heir to their kingdom mysteriously disappearing for a few days.
• Mandy (2018): Far from the "righteous man whose heart was full of love" he proclaims himself to be, Jeremiah Sand is a megalomaniac who believes that God granted him the right to take whatever he thinks he's entitled to. He treats his own followers like dirt, being willing to dispose of them when he sees the need and using the women for sexual gratification whether they're fully compliant or not. He hides behind the Black Skulls gang to do his dirty work for him and is more than happy to torment Red by having Mandy killed in front of him before leaving him to die.
• Better Watch Out: Luke is one of the most odious child villains ever put to screen. He stages a home invasion, then murders Ashley's boyfriend and ex-boyfriend in cold blood, and later Garrett, his own friend and accomplice for trying to save her when he sees the error of his ways, all in a twisted ploy to seduce Ashley, who he later tries to kill when he realizes she won't come around to him. As much as he might initially appear to be intelligent and a good planner, his petulance reveals itself whenever his plans go out the window.
• I Made A Comic About Internet Explorer: Google Chrome Chan and Opera are both internet browsers with aspirations of power. Google Chrome Chan tortured Bing for her RAM and ultimately left her a hollow husk. Opera pretends to team up with Internet Explorer but backstabs her solely so she could feed on Google Chrome Chan's Chromium OS.
• Ma: Ben and Mercedes bullied Sue Ann back in high school by making her perform a blowjob on a total stranger. Unrepentant even years later, Ben threatens Sue Ann and additionally reminds her that she was a loser. As such, both receive little sympathy when Sue Ann murders them.
• Supermarioglitchy4s Super Mario 64 Bloopers: Francis, the boss of the Anime Cartel, goes the extra mile by kidnapping Inklings to harness them of their ink to create a harem of anime girls for his hedonistic pleasure. He later sent a Sephiroth replica to impale Desti and laughs maniacally at the others mourning her.
• Beserk
  • Emperor Ganishka is the sadistic leader of the Kushan Empire, who commits depraved acts on a regular basis. While his goal is to challenge the similarly villainous Godhand, Ganishka is destructive and idiotic about the matter, permitting mass rape to spawn his demonic soldiers, the Daka, kidnapping Princess Charlotte in an attempt to rape her, and attempting unsuccessfully to kill everyone in Midland.

I'm going to need some set standards regarding format for works with multiple examples...

As for modern Pennywise, it doesn't matter if the audience loves him. Find author's intent and the actions that back up the notion that Pennywise is meant to be hated above being scary or being awesome.

Beverly's father is most certainly a Hate Sink. Bower's father is more debatable since A) he's not as awful as in the novel, B) deleted scenes featuring him being more abusive to his kid have been cut (putting his qualification into a grey area) and C) the scenes that did made it in don't really emphasize just how Officer Bower's actions are Disproportionate Retribution, especially when compared to Henry Bower's response being murder.

Edited by Shadao on Jun 24th 2019 at 1:06:39 AM

Well, nevermind then.

Another to King Piccolo.

@Austin DR In fairness, the line between Evil Is Cool and Hate Sink is always a tricky one, and Hate Sink is broad enough to be abused on technically.

I'm sure George Lucas intends Emperor Palpatine to be a horrible villain you are supposed to hate as per villain role and Palpatine has the crimes to back up those claims. Yet it was agreed that Palpatine's Evil Is Cool moments was enough disqualify him. But Evil Is Cool is a subjective matter.

In this case, I would recommend an EP for Pennywise when It: Chapter Two comes out just to settle this once and for all.

Btw... I'll handle my writeup soon once I rewatch a favorite movie at a later time to see if this character counts

And yay for 666 posts

Palpatine was meant to be Rooted against. But I think palps and Snoke are a perfect demonstration of the difference between a Charahcter your supposed to root against and one your supposed to Hate. Palps is a Brilliant Chessmaster who's quite clearly meant to be Villain the audience finds cool But still a despicable monster. Snoke however is a Smug Bully who lacks all of Palps charm and Intelligence but has his Cruelty.

After discussing Endeavor from My Hero Academia with DVB, who is knowledgeable about the subject, in the private messages, I decide to save my effort post for him until the manga provides enough information.

I would like to collect votes for the crowd from The Protomen, Kai Chisaki/Overhaul from My Hero Academia, the Gold-Toothed Doctor from Fullmetal Alchemist, and Blumiere's nameless father from Super Paper Mario, all of whom don't have enough yet. As for Chisaki, I would like to know whether he's a subversion or a zigzag because I've reached a conclusion upon analyzing him that while his abuse of Eri is undeniably one of the most horrific things in the series, he has too many redeeming qualities to be a straight example.

Edited by IukaSylvie on Jun 25th 2019 at 6:06:07 PM

I have a candidate for season 5 of Black Mirror that I would like to effort post here.

What is the episode?

Black Mirror: Rachel, Jack and Ashley Too. This episode is about Ashley O, a pop singer frustrated with her restrictive management team, and Rachel and Jack Goggins, two teenage sisters struggling the recent death of their mother.

Who is the character, and what do they do?

Catherine Ortiz, the aunt and manager of pop singer Ashley O. Catherine is abusive and controlling, forcing Ashley to write and sing songs she does not want to make, emotionally manipulating her into obeying, and keeps her on drugs to keep her submissive. Catherine also creates sentient copies of Ashley’s mind and traps them in Ashley Too dolls with their brain functions lowered to 4%, keeping them in an And I Must Scream scenario. When Catherine discovers that Ashley hasn’t been taking her pills, she drugs Ashley’s food with an overdose to deliberately put her in a coma. While Ashley is kept in a chemically induced coma, Catherine mind rapes Ashley to compose artificial music from her thoughts so she can freely exploit her niece. At the same time, all the Ashley Too dolls are recalled and destroyed en masse, killing hundreds and thousands of sentient copies of Ashley. Six months after putting Ashley in a coma, Catherine creates a hologram of Ashley called Ashley Eternal to perform the artifical music so she can exploit her niece even further. When the hologram is ready to be unveiled, Catherine sends her guards to lethally inject Ashley since she no longer needed her. However, Catherine’s plans are foiled when the heroines Rachel, Jack, and Ashley Too rescue Ashley and crash their car into the stage, with cop cars behind them. As Catherine cowers on the stage bemoaning her failure, Ashley gets out of the car to give her aunt the middle finger.

What makes her personally despicable?

Catherine abuses, manipulates, exploits, and attempt to kill her own niece for her own gain without any remorse. While Catherine tells her niece that she loves and supports her, this is only a facade so she can manipulate and exploit Ashley. For instance, she tells Ashley that a brooding piano ballad she wrote is a great song only to call the song crap once Ashley is out of earshot. Once Catherine creates a replacement for the real Ashley, she is ready to have her killed without a second thought.

Evil Is Cool traits? Complexity? Freudian Excuse?

Catherine’s only excuse is that she took in Ashley after her parents died even though she was too young and unprepared to care for a child and resents Ashley for stealing her youthful freedom. However, this excuse is completely undermined by the fact that Catherine took Ashley’s freedom at an even younger age by exploiting her. Otherwise, Catherine has no sympathetic traits in the slightest.

Verdict?

Catherine is an easy keeper in my book.

Catherine.

Catherine.

for Catherine.

To Catherine.

@Austin

Could you restore your proposal for Pennywise being cut? I noticed you edited it out, But that makes the following conversation look confusing.

I’ve made the following write-up for Catherine:

Black Mirror: Rachel, Jack and Ashley Too: Catherine Ortiz, the aunt and manager of Ashley O, is an abusive and manipulative sociopath. While claiming to love and support Ashley, Catherine actively resents her niece and belittles her attempts to truly express herself behind her back. Catherine will stoop to any low to control and exploit her niece, including putting her into a chemically-induced coma and attempting to have her killed once she no longer needs her. When her plans are foiled, Catherine dives for the stage and cowers in fear of the police while her niece gives her a well-deserved middle finger.

Also, the page for Black Mirror: Smithereens has the following unauthorized entry: David Gilkes, the hostage negotiator, is technically just doing his job (albeit not very skillfully). However, his self-obsessed attitude and the impression that he's more concerned with showing how smart he is than with saving lives makes him the only truly hateable character in an episode where everyone is otherwise sympathetic.

While the character seems to be a legitimate example, should I still have him effort posted just in case?

I think an EP Would work