The main concern of a Hate Sink is whether the narrative treats the character as someone intended to be despised.
The character in question must actually display detestable qualities, and be hated by other characters at least, or treated by the narrative like someone you are supposed to hate. The author's declared intent cements an example, but is not needed if the narrative itself treats the character as someone who is supposed to be hated.
A Hate Sink may have charismatic traits, a troubled past, or complexity, but in order for this trope to be in effect, such traits must be de-emphasized by the narrative in favour of their detestable traits.
Please note that we do not use Effort Posts.
Edited by gjjones on Dec 3rd 2020 at 7:43:25 AM
Could you elaborate on Legend of the Galactic Heroes? Because I see only two characters labeled as Hate Sink, and Politically Incorrect Villain and Dirty Coward are not present in the entries.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupAh, I scrambled them. Braunschweig's contemptibility can be boiled down to his prejudice, cowardice, stupidity and propensity for violence which are all covered in other tropes under him. I thought Flegel was listed as well but I see now Falk's the only other one on the list and in his case it can be attributed to extreme Lack of Empathy, his status as The Neidermeyer and tendency to throw temper tantrums which can literally render him catatonic, all coupled with a helping of Stupid Evil in his campaign decisions.
Again, we can go one of two ways: cut the HS entries and let their parts be covered in their other tropes or we may as well cover everyone who technically counts under the supertrope: the aforementioned Flegel and Arthur Lynch easily count as well and I can make a case for Rudolf von Goldenbaum given some of the narrative notes about him.
Tbh, a lot of characters in the series, especially in the first season, feel like they exist only to showcase the corruption and incompetence in both countries while making the two Heroes look like saints in comparison. But for the trope it should be seen if the writing itself is rooting against them.
I think Braunschweig would still count since he embodies everything Reinhard is against and what he shouldn't become (beside Rudolf), and also the first major thorn in his side who ends up as a stepping stone. The episodes go out of their way to show his point of view to showcase how he and his cohort treat anyone around them as toys they can use.
Falk's entry could probably be safely replaced with It's All About Me and The Neidermeyer part needs context. He's a rather minor Jerkass who's rarely taken seriously and later is just a psycho and disposable pawn (his folder could use more info on his post-sanity role).
I wouldn't count Arthur Lynch since he's only role is staging a coup (not his idea) out of spite and that's all he's done.
Rudolf would probably count since the narrative consistently uses him as a low bar and one of the causes of many present problems, and practically nobody in the setting by the time of the narrative has a good opinion of him.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupI don't remember the exact details about him because of his short-time appearance, but I think you can add it.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupI'm just trying to gauge what we'd like to do given you also are familiar with the work... Falk you suggested divvying up between subtropes that encompass what makes him contemptible. For Rudolf there's a fair bit about how bigoted and hypocritical he is, with lots of flourishes about irony as the narrative loves kicking him in the nuts but from Braunschweig you felt labeling HS is handy since he's such a revolting foe for Reinhard. For the sake of consistency do you like the idea of each who could fall under the label getting an HS label kinda like a "master" compilation of their bad characteristics done for those who count? If so I also feel Trunicht could be listed... dude positively oozes slime lol
Well, yes.
Hate Sink was recently put into repairs but it was still left with ambiguous description, so it basically runs on consensus if Word of God isn't available. To avoid it sounding like YMMV, I mainly check if the character is not just utterly despicable with no redeeming qualities, but how low they can get can even count as a plot point.
And Trunicht goes into such mustache-twirling villainry with ruining literally everyone's lives to make himself comfortable and even admits it, he may as well be the biggest example. Even many other characters just call him subhuman trash.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupCool... Rudolf is constantly getting kicked in the nuts by history with the author's narrator taking the time to go "Isn't it funny how the guy who thought homosexuals were an impurity within the gene pool had a family member, born of his genes who was themselves gay?" or the hilarious whimper his High Nobles die out with while espousing his rhetoric. Trunicht is the dictionary definition of asshole and even lacks the charm or intelligence of Space Hitler and I'll work on some entries later, cheers!
In the character page of Jojo Rabbit, imaginary Adolf Hitler is described as a subversion because he is too goofy and comedic to hate, but then notes that is only at first. The entry doesn't mention as the film goes imaginary Hitler goes from goofy to cruel and by the time Jojo kicks Hitler out of a window, you are supposed to hate him. So that entry could use expansion.
Okay, so I'm catching this on Horde Prime's character page.
- Hate Sink: He's cruel, petty, depraved, self-absorbed, vicious to the man who spent decades trying to win his respect, and has no respect for sentient life. The other villains can't hold a candle to his level of evil.
Prime feels to me more like Viler New Villain— he's deliberately created to be the most black-hearted, soulless being in the universe, a true monster to contrast the Tragic Villain types that are Catra and Hordak— but Keston John's performance alone gives him a very, very fun stage presence, he's elegant and clever, and above all terrifying. He's introduced not to be a Hate Sink but to make the audience realize exactly what Hordak came from and to give himself and Catra a reason to pull a Heel–Face Turn. He strikes me as definitively fitting into Viler New Villain. The Hate Sink entry just reads as listing all the evil things about him.
Annnnnnd this one:
- Hate Sink: An abusive, evil sorcerer that is the cause for many of the problems that haunt Adora and Catra. On top of that, she sold out her own people for even greater magical power, forcing them to live in hiding. Notably, while Catra, Lonnie, and even Hordak get moments of sympathy, Shadow Weaver gets basically none - even her most sympathetic moments in "Light Spinner" are shown to be based in pride and a hunger for power, rather than genuine concern. While this softens a bit after her Hazy Feel Turn, especially taking a genuine liking towards Glimmer, she's still very firmly a Token Evil Teammate that acts as a corrupting influence on the Rebellion and makes it clear to them that the only reason she's helping them is revenge on Hordak. It takes until the series finale for her to finally do something unambiguously heroic and selfless, a Heroic Sacrifice (and even that serves as a way to manipulate Adora and Catra into potentially forgiving her for all the things she's done), and it took a "The Reason You Suck" Speech from Adora and one from Catra to provoke such an action. Still though, ignoring the events leading to that along with her reasons for doing so, the fact that Shadow Weaver was willing to bravely face the enemy and embrace her imminent death gracefully shows she wasn't without honor.
Shadow Weaver isn't this. There's too much complexity, cool factor, and humor introduced with her. ("Those are daisies. I find them... cheerful.") She's a nasty abusive parent but the show starts demonstrating that she's more complex in Season 2 and never stops.
Having watched She-Ra, yeah, cut those examples. Shadow Weaver gets complexity as early as season one when she tells Catra that she mistreated her because she wanted to prepare her for the harsh world that was waiting her and she did seem genuine to me in that scene. And let's not forget that she sacrifices herself for Adora and Catra and the two of them cry when they see her die and the scene is presented with a lot of pathos.
And Horde Prime mistreats Hordak in one scene, treats him unfairly and subjects him to mind-rape, but other than that, I didn't find him particularly hateable. He is definitely one of the most evil villains in western animation but that's not the same as Hate Sink.
Edited by WatTambor on Mar 4th 2022 at 4:11:29 PM
Cut. Prime's the final Big Bad amongst other things as you noted: being the worst person in the work is part of his job to make the plot go on.
Wanted to report this for someone else, from The Boys on Homelanders page
"Hate Sink: While Stormfront is the ultimate Hate Sink of the series, Homelander has been consistently a murderous, psychotic and sadistic monster who's too unbalanced and self-obsessed to be an actual hero which was shown when he was willing to let innocent people die on a plane that was crashing and then lie to the press that he tried save them and shifted the blame elsewhere. Any sympathy he could get comes more from understanding how he turned into a monster rather than from whatever good might be in him."
No, he is a Monster and a depraved Scumbag which the show makes no bones about, but his backstory and tragic qualities are all given full pathos. From what I have heard of Diabolical they even show he tried to be a Legitimate hero initially. He is a case where is meant to be a Tragic character even if its made clear he is still a Godawful person.
Bow to the PrototypeYeah, Homelander is too tragic to be intended for hate.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallOn the page for Mad Father, Monika Drevis is listed as this in regards to what's learned about her in the 2020 release.
- Hate Sink: While she isn't this in the original game, she becomes this in the 2020 remake where it is revealed that she never loved Aya or Alfred and only used them so the Drevis murders would continue, and unlike Aya or Alfred Monika no longer has any sympathetic qualities. Though as a spirit, she does seem to have gained some actual affection for Aya.
I wouldn't say she counts, though, as she also has this written in her folder.
- Becoming the Mask: In the 2020 remake, her diary shows that she only viewed Alfred and Aya as a means to carry on the Drevis tradition, and used them as pawns for that purpose. But she slowly began to grow some genuine care for Aya, going out of her way to groom her while making sure she never suffered, and her jealousy at Alfred cheating on her with Maria seems to have been genuine. Notably, in the IF Mode, she tells Robin that she does not want Aya to see her the way she is now, hinting that she possibly feels remorse towards her actions.
Plus even with the new information the remake gave, she still tells Aya the reason she didn't just outright kill Alfred was because she still loved him even after he killed her, which at that point, she had no reason to lie.
It's been done.
Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Mar 11th 2022 at 5:44:36 AM
I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.These blatantly contradict each other, so I'd keep the one that has more info.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupThere are five entries I would like to remove from Final Space. The first is for Clarence from Final Space:
- Clarence is a greedy tradesman who enslaved Gary in the beginning of season 2. Expressing disgust towards Gary and Little Cato — the former for being a human, the latter a Ventrexian — Clarence is motivated primarily by his ego. He even betrays the crew by working with Gary's mother when he was enraged that he wasn't being lavished in praise. Not even his adopted children deter him from his goal; he attacks Fox upon being exposed, the attack nearly killing him. Because of his sins, Clarence found himself alone in the season finale. Though he loses this status in the third season during his return episode as his time alone has let him reflect on himself, realize his mistakes and truly realize how much he loved his adopted children to the point that he is distraught to hear of Fox's death and when he sacrifices himself to help the Squad, the last thing he does is to hold the portrait of his family as he slowly dies.
Clarence is not this. Yes, he is greedy, but his greed is often played for laughs by the story. Also, when he turns on the crew because he feels they don't respect him enough, that's played for sympathy. He does attack his own son, but he didn't intend to kill him and he is shocked when he learns that Fox has almost died from it. When Gary's mother rejects him and leaves him alone and later when the crew also reject him and leave him alone is also played for sympathy by the story even though it was his own fault. And the entry itself mentions that he sacrifices himself for his family because he wants to help them.
- Invictus is a completely wicked parasitic god who is revealed to be the true Big Bad of the show as it is revealed to be the one responsible for orchestrating the actions the Lord Commander committed in season 1. Out of pure malice, Invictus possessed most of the Titans into serving it, and imprisoning Bolo for ten thousand years in a cube because he resisted its influence. It used Quinn as bait after she went into Final Space so it could lure Gary into a trap and possess him, only to leave his body and poison Avocato, forcing Little Cato to shoot his own father. For an animated sitcom, Invictus is shown to be the most vile of villains.
- Werthrent was worshipped as a benevolent god on the planet Serepentis, but in reality, it's far from it. It demands human sacrifices, and when consuming one, they're kept alive inside him forever as mindless zombies, one of them being Ash's sister Harp.
Invictus and Werthrent are Complete Monsters but I think their characters are way too flat and alien to be particularly hateable. They are both Eldritch Abominations who are thousands of years old. Werthrent has only two lines of dialogue in total and while it tortures its victims inside its body and does seem sadistic, I think he is too alien as a concept and has too little dialogue to be a Hate Sink.
Invictus has a manipulative personality and tries to turn Ash Graven against her friends by tricking her into thinking that Gary has killed her brother but other than that, he is not particularly hateable. He is an Eldritch Abominations Omnicidal Maniac who wants to escape from his prison and destroy the entire universe... for some reason.
- The Lord Commander, as the first Big Bad in the show, is known to be one of the most despicable and monstrous villains in the history of western animation. Despite the show being primarily a sci-fi comedy, this guy is shown to not be Played for Laughs and is generally malevolent. He is a tyrant who has committed vile atrocities which include sadistically ripping off Gary's left arm and performing Mind Rape on him several times. He also kidnapped and Mind Raped Avocato's son, Little Cato. "Chapter Six" is the episode where it was revealed that he forced his generals to kill their firstborn children to prove their loyalty to him and attempted to make Avocato do the same thing to Little Cato. In that same episode, he makes one last ditch effort to murder Little Cato after he was rescued by placing a bomb on his back, which leads to Avocato's apparent tragic death. Fortunately, Avocato himself is saved from death by Gary in season 2 after he travels back in time to the moment the bomb blew up.
The Lord Commander has too many Evil Is Cool moments and moments where he is played for laughs to count.
There is a moment where the LC tries to set a trap for the heroes and when they appear, he shouts "Surprise!". And then Gary says with a calm voice "Dude, no one is surprised" and that everyone expected this to be a trap. This enranges the LC and he complains h=that he spent many hours preparing the surprise and he even had the population of an entire prison slaughtered and it was all for nothing.
There is another scene at the very beginning where he interrogates a prisoner and the prisoner constantly interrupts him bu laughing at his height.
There is another scene where Little Cato, he is imprisoned by him, mocks him by saying that he looks like crap and that he always looks like crap but now he looks like the crap has decided to make a house of crap. This happens while the LC screams at him the shut up.
There is also a moment where the LC gives a speech to his followers and then he doesn't know how to turn the device off and there is an awkward moment where he doesn't know what to do while the soldiers are watching him and then he decided that he would just walk away.
He is still played seriously enogh to be a Complete Monster, but I feel that his comedic moments still detract from the viewers' ability to hate him.
However, the main reason why I don't think he belongs here is because he has too many Evil Is Cool moments especially after he becomes a titan. He single-handedly obliterates an entire planet with his new powers, he defeats several titans in battle that Invictus sends after him and he even attempts to take down Invictus himself and usurp him. I feel that he has too many cool moments and combined with some of his comedic moments, I don't think he belongs here.
Also, the last candidate from Final Space:
- Oreskis, one of the Titans, was apparently a "frickin' dickbag" before getting his mind poisoned by Invictus. Before it came along, he seduced Bolo's girlfriend, knowingly gave her an STD, which then was given to Bolo himself. After being corrupted by Invictus, he took part in Bolo's imprisoning and later told Sheryl Goodspeed that Bolo is evil and tricked her into collecting dimensional keys for him.
The entire story about him seducing Bolo's girlfriend is completely Off-Screen and during their fight, it's slightly played for laughs. Also, after Bolo kills Oreskis, Bolo mutters "Goodbye, old friend!" which suggests that the writers didn't intend him to be a Hate Sink and the audience is supposed to be slightly sad about him dying. Not to mention that he, like all the other Titans, was under the mind control of Invictus.
Personally, I don't think any character from Final Space was intended to be a Hate Sink but I would like to hear your thoughts on these entries.
LC has that Evil Is Cool factor working for him; Werthrent, I would almost say that he is the only true one namely because of how gluttonous he is when it comes with his sacrifices and lacks any charm/cool factor.
Just wondering, are we allowed to delete Hate Sink entries if at least one of its Sub-Tropes are already listed for the character in question?
Alright, I had just deleted an entry on King Andrais' page as despite being very detestable, I felt he was too entertaining and compelling to be a true Hate Sink.
And now I'm wondering whether were should do the same with MCU: Ego the Living Planet. Now don't get me wrong, he has the Complete Monster label for a reason, but even when putting aside his murder of Star-Lord's mother and all of Peter's half-siblings he never got to meet and wanting to destroy all life in the universe... we only see a glimpse of this. Also, even though he's horrific, he's still way to entertaining, being Faux Affably Evil for the majority of the film, and he's One-Man Army. Plus who can hate a guy who likes 70s music.
The choice is yours, do you think we should get rid of Ego?
Edited by SpaceProtagonist on Mar 21st 2022 at 10:24:12 AM
I don't know about Ego because I never watched his movie but I think we should remove General Grievous from Star Wars:
- The Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith has the canon version of General Grievous, who most certainly qualifies. His previous incarnation in Legends averts this by having a tragic past and a legitimate reason to hate the Republic. Contrasting this, Canon!Grievous is absolutely unsympathetic, lacks the redeemable or likable traits of Legends!Grievous, and manages to be a nasty psychopath who has caused endless misery and destruction on numerous planets, and the times he does seem to care for someone else (Gor and Dooku) are in truth only for his own benefit and nothing else. He is this In-Universe as well, as he is feared and/or despised by anyone who knows about him.
General Grievous is way too cool to be a Hate Sink. From his overall appearance, to his voice and the fact that he has some of the coolest battles in the franchise. Also, his entry only explains that he has no redeeming qualities and that has has caused misery and destruction on numerous planets. None of those things are enough to make someone a Hate Sink.
The only thing which makes him a bit more hateable than your average Star Wars villain is how he treats his Droids but even that is played mostly for laughs.
A reminder that Characterization Tags aren't allowed and should be rephrased on-sight.
Yes, Grievous is just "an enemy general" in canon, and also has some degree of Evil Is Cool. I haven't seen The Clone Wars and the example doesn't describe what awful things he does there, but in Revenge of the Sith I remember none of his villainy is actually shown.
So basically I'd cut this.
Edited by Amonimus on Mar 22nd 2022 at 5:00:26 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Riley's right... unless someone can find a similar article to the one on Killgrave and find the words in the creator's mouth I'm not supporting AFO on this list.
Cut Diavolo as well, he's way too cool for this.
Going through Legend of the Galactic Heroes (I'll pull examples later) Hate Sink seems to get used interchangeably even if subtropes are listed on character sheets (Politically Incorrect Villain and Dirty Coward in particular). Would we like to remove the HS tags given they're already covered or would we like them kept? If the latter I've got more examples we can add.
Edited by 43110 on Feb 22nd 2022 at 7:16:12 AM