The main concern of a Hate Sink is whether the narrative treats the character as someone intended to be despised.
The character in question must actually display detestable qualities, and be hated by other characters at least, or treated by the narrative like someone you are supposed to hate. The author's declared intent cements an example, but is not needed if the narrative itself treats the character as someone who is supposed to be hated.
A Hate Sink may have charismatic traits, a troubled past, or complexity, but in order for this trope to be in effect, such traits must be de-emphasized by the narrative in favour of their detestable traits.
Please note that we do not use Effort Posts.
Edited by gjjones on Dec 3rd 2020 at 7:43:25 AM
Can I get more opinions on this
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Yeah, if a character just blatantly doesn't fit people won't really argue if you cut it and link back here. Especially now that it's a supertrope, we're expected to just clean it and move/cut things that don't count.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallI am not really familliar with Harry Potter but I want to question those two entries about Draco Malfoy and Severus Snape:
- Draco Malfoy was introduced as a Jerkass Fantastic Racist rich kid who thought he was better than others because he was born in a rich family. As the story progressed he only showed more jerkassery as he openly declares that he wishes to know who the Slytherin's heir is so he could help him kill muggleborns, deliberately got himself harmed during a lesson so the teacher would be sacked (it didn't work, but the teacher's favourite hippogriff almost got killed for it), and so on. It culminated in the sixth book with several attempts on Dumbledore's life which almost got two other people killed. Downplayed however in that he clearly doesn't want to be a member of the Death Eaters as he grows up, but believes he doesn't have much of a choice.
- Severus Snape is like this for the early part of the series, he was largely viewed as a cruel, bitter, and absurdly unfair Jerkass by readers. This changed somewhat in Book 5 when Umbridge replaced him as Hogwarts' resident Sadist Teacher, only to skyrocket right to the top of the fandom's hate list by the end of the following book for apparently murdering Dumbledore. However, it's finally subverted in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, with the shock reveal of just how much of a hero he was all along, despite remaining a cruel, bitter and absurdly unfair Sadist Teacher.
From what I remember, Snape has a backstory where his love interest chose Harry's father over him and he was bullied by him and this is why he takes it out on Harry Potter. However, at the same on several occasions throughout the books. Not to mention that at the end it was revealed that all along he was working for the good guys and his death is portrayed with pathos.
Draco Malfoy redeems himself at the end and gives up on his supremacist beliefs, stops hating Harry and apparently even teams up with the heroes on one occasion to stop Delphini (according to the wiki).
Wouldn't that make them too complex to qualify as Hate Sinks.
I think they are valid examples in the early books, and therefore just as much worth discussing as, say, Aunt Marge (who only appears in one book). Harry and his friends hate them, and we are clearly meant to hate them, and that only changes near the end of the last book with the revelation that they had more complexity than we knew about.
But Snape gets development as early as the first book. Harry and his friends suspect that he is working for Voldemort and at the end of the book it turns out that he was actually trying to stop Quirrell from bypassing the defences of Hogwards and during the Quidich match he wasn't trying to kill Harry but instead was casting spells to save him from falling from his broom.
I think at the very least we need to cut Snape.
Edited by WatTambor on Feb 14th 2022 at 2:39:41 PM
I'd remove them overall but keep and reformat them for early books, one is a classic Sadist Teacher and the other is a Politically Incorrect Thin-Skinned Bully, they just don't get much characterization until about books 4-5.
I remember, Snape was also a Red Herring. I guess he isn't a Hate Sink period.
Edited by Amonimus on Feb 14th 2022 at 2:44:26 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupFound this in the character folder for Sean Renard from Grimm, don't think it really applies considering he is a Magnificent Bastard and the two tropes are, most of the time, mutually exclusive. Toss?
- Hate Sink: After joining Black Claw, Renard became despised by many fans and some refer to him as the worst character on the show because of this.
Edited by k410ren on Feb 14th 2022 at 10:05:49 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
HoMM Fan
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"many fans" "some refer to him"
Weasel Words detected, seems like a personal grudge.
"Grandmaster Combat, son!"So this is currently Diavolo's entry on the Jojo page:
- Diavolo, the Big Bad, rivals DIO in terms of cruelty and ruthlessness. But while DIO at least showed some charm and charisma, Diavolo lacks such traits. He's a paranoid, cold-blooded psychopath who is willing to murder his own daughter just to protect his identity and makes a gruesome example of anyone who dares to breach his privacy. Oh, and he's also a mafia boss who ignores every ethic guidelines set to other mafiosi by having his criminal empire selling drugs to children.
Um, not to undermine the effort someone put in, but I'm not really seeing it? Diavolo is arguably worse than Dio and Kira but he's not really more odious personality-wise. It says he "sells drugs to children" but there are very few JJBA villains who don't harm kids, just ask poor Shigechi He also gets a few (slightly) kinder moments with Doppio, and has quite a few badass moments throughout the story. We also get a look into his dark past, which hints he may have once cared for Trish's mother and used to be more innocent.
Plus it's just hard to call him the most revolting villain when guys like Cioccolata exist, who even Diavolo calls disgusting. So...permission to cut?
All witches, all skeletons, all jack O Lanterns, gather round your TV set, put on your masks, and watch...watch the magic pumpkin, Watch...Hate Sink is not "most revolting villain", it's a villain written to be so unsympathetic the audience isn't supposed to miss them. I don't see why there being another Hate Sink in the work would invalidate each other.
The valid concerns though, is that the Big Bad shows Pet the Dog to one of his underlings and finds another one so disturbing he considers using him a Godzilla Threshold, which goes against "no redeeming qualities" requirement.
And while YMMV tropes aren't solid arguments for other tropes, him having an entry for both Complete Monster and Draco in Leather Pants work for and against him being a Hate Sink.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
The thing is both Dio and Kira(particularly the former) are also nasty, unsympathetic mass-murderers, but neither are counted as this.
Diavolo is admittedly a bit of a Smug Snake and isn't Laughably Evil like Dio, but he's no pushover and isn't a sadistic, petty bully or Dirty Coward like Alessi from Part 3 or Angelo from Part 4.
All witches, all skeletons, all jack O Lanterns, gather round your TV set, put on your masks, and watch...watch the magic pumpkin, Watch...Didn't the author say he was one of his top ten favourite characters. I think only Kira ranked higher among villains which is a bit weird if he was supposed to be an utter scumbag with no cool moments.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 14th 2022 at 2:11:31 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Someone has apparently decided that My Hero Academia - All For One counts as this and has re-added it. AFO is monstrous but he's also an awesome chessmaster with plans upon plans. He's way too cool for this.
Edit: This one doesn't need much discussion, I think we can all agree here... taken the liberty of removing.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Feb 15th 2022 at 10:05:38 AM
Agreeing to snip-snip both All for One and Diavolo from the trope, Diavolo's "redeeming moments" I'd debate with since I do think he's a Complete Monster, but he's a genuinely cool, terrifying villain whose reputation of being a "lame antagonist" was—much like all of Part 5 itself being looked down on for years—purely thanks to poor translations of the manga. After the anime, he's highly regarded as an Evil Is Cool antagonist by much of the fandom.
You will be very hard-pressed to find any Big Bad JoJo villain who fits as a Hate Sink. The manga thrives on cool, badass characters, and even its most evil ones like DIO, Diavolo, Valentine, etc. are littered with moments meant to make the reader go "oh shit! That was so cool!" More minor, despicable villains like Angelo or J. Geil are of course free real estate for this trope, but I don't think Diavolo is a HS.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 15th 2022 at 10:13:05 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!AFO does not count. Period. Nothing barring Word of God will make AFO a Hate Sink. Is he more evil now? Absolutely, but "more evil" does not a Hate Sink make. AFO is a chessmaster who gets extensive time dedicated to examining his plans, showing off his incredible intellect and badass moments. He's absolutely despicable to be sure but the way he speaks alone is flowery and poetic enough to emphasize that this guy is cool. He's more vile but none of the traits that made him cool have gone away. Listing All For One is like listing Palpatine as a Hate Sink. He's a deliciously evil Machiavellian schemer and even his pettiest actions are done with a staggering poeticism. Guy's a Card-Carrying Villain who literally waxes poetic about becoming the "World's Greatest Demon Lord." He is not meant to be hated, there is way too much attention to his brilliance and the sheer fun of him to declare that.
All For One does not count - and if I'm gonna be frank, this whole thing reeks of people wanting to see him listed as a CM before his final arc is done.
I would say that Riley has made a good argument for why AFO doesn't count.
I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.AFO is definitely not a Hate Sink. He's mysterious and powerful and cool. He's not outright despicable like Overhaul; we see just enough of him to know he's dangerous, but he's got entertaining qualities.
Hate Sink has nothing to do with how evil someone is; it's solely about their role in the narrative.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallI think Malfoy could stay regarding Harry Potter examples. Iirc we have early Vegeta as a hate sink. Snape is the harder case and there is very much a compelling case that Rowling failed to genuinely make him sympathetic, the character failed to hold up to rapidly changing social norms(hence the incel memes nowadays), and it was primarily Alan Rickman that carried the entire character in the films and is the reason why people like the character.
Earlier someone pointed out Yazan and Gihren and contested if they were full on hate sinks. As someone familiar with the subject material, here are my two cents:
For Yazan I am willing to agree he isn't meant to be a total hate sink. He is wayyy too badass for this trope, gives off enough Evil Is Cool vibes, and is reduced to an utter joke in ZZ that dosen't do anything extremely horrible(virtually all of his CM credentials come from Zeta).
Gihren I am not sure. While he is wayyy too much of the central villain to be just a despicable side character, he does have some very big larger than life and badass moments, it does stand that he is the most irredeemable of the Zabis and stand out considering the Zabi family dynamics as the worst of the lot.
The Berserk examples except Gambino can be kept.
Also found this under the trope page for The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel:
- Hate Sink:
- Cold Steel III generated a lot of hate towards quite a lot of characters, and not necessarily the ones players were expecting. Special mention goes to George Nome/Georg of Copper, Cedric, Black Alberich, and of course Chancellor Osborne.
- The "Provincial Army Officer" in the first game. You actually encounter three of them (two from the same Province), but they all share the same model, voice actor, and personality. They basically play the part of a whiny Obstructive Bureaucrat that will do everything in their power to get in Class VII's way and perform extremely questionable actions to uphold their ruling noble's will.
- Duke Cayenne and Duke Alberea are this to some players in II for kidnapping Princess Alfin, torching Celdic, and attempting to torch Ymir, among many other atrocities.
A few of these entries are rather problematic or poorly written, let me explain:
- Osborne turns out to be a Lelouch-esque Good All Along anti-hero running his own Zero Requiem knockoff in Cold Steel IV as a means of trying to save the world. His backstory is very sympathetic and his defeat is treated with a lot of pathos, so obvious cut.
- George redeems himself in IV so another obvious cut.
- Cedric I'm honestly not sure. He goes full Draco Malfoy wannabe in III and is a massive jerk, going all the way to advocating outright war crimes by IV. Yet he is quickly knocked to his senses and expresses total remorse, overcoming the curse of Ishmelga by his own choices. Now this might keep him out of this trope but it's made clear he sought out the powers of the curse on his own free will and the end of the story shows that he refuses to seek redemption and ends the story in a position where he could easily get darker to say the least, joining the main villainous organization in the Trails series. Through to be fair, the reason he rejects redemption is because he felt there is no way anyone would accept or forgive him. So overall I am not to sure here.
- I'm actually planning to effortpost Black Alberich for the CM thread since I have compelling evidence the curse of Ishmelga, which was implied to corrupt him in the past, isn't a moral agency breaker. But regarding this trope...I will say he fits. He has no admirable or cool moments, the narrative makes him an extremely personal opponent for Alisa(having posessed her father's body), and revels in the destruction that the war started by Osborne will bring
- The "Provincial Army Officer" in the first game seems to be a HS and the entry looks fine as it is.
- Cayenne and Alberea I will agree are hate sinks. While a case that Cayenne appears to be the Big Bad in II, he is presented as ultimately a small-time schemer that is quickly outwitted by Osborne when Osborne is revealed to be Not Quite Dead and ultimately comes off as a pathetic Big Bad Wannabe. The entries however will need to be rewritten.
Edited by xie323 on Feb 19th 2022 at 9:59:02 AM

Im fine keeping them aside from Gambino
Bow to the Prototype