Ok, I realize that my previous post was too long and I asked too many different things; if you haven't read it you don't need to, I just wrote all of that in case anyone asked for details or wanted to help me with my fic; I did it cause I wasn't gonna have access to my computer for a while, and writing on the phone is hard.
But I really need feedback on this if I ever want to write romance, the main question I was trying to ask is: how can love be selfless? what does that mean? if we do something good for someone else because making them happy makes us happy, is that truly selfless?
But now I realize all of that is a very board philosophical question and not really something specific I could ask help with in regards to writing. Still, thanks to a comment I read on discussion about taxes on reddit, I think I came up with a way for it to make sense.
When people talk about being selfish, they don't mean it it a board way, they're just talking about dumb people that believe it wouldn't benefit them in any way to think about the needs of others; and being selfess just means caring about other people, not matter whether it benefits you or not.
And that's when I had my "Eureka!" Moment: When a relationship matures is when you stop thinking in terms of "this relationship is to make me happy, I shouldn't feel obligated to do things I don't want to"; and realize things can't always be perfect for you, "we both have to compromise, in order to make each other happy"; because, obviously, not doing so would end up making both of you unhappy.
Thanks to it, I'm left now with only two problems:
The first one is awkward for me to say, it has to do specifically with the fic I want to write, the one I talked about in the above post, so you don't really need to help me with this, I just want to let it out: I don't really know what to write them having to compromise on, I don't know what kind of problems have them facing in their relationship; and I don't know how to write that conflict in a way that doesn't seem over the top, but also makes it obvious that overcoming those problems is an important step in the development of their relationship.
The second one, and the one I REALLY want someone to share their thoughts on is:
How do I show in the way they see each other, while I'm narrating from each of their P.O.V.s, that their way of thinking has changed from "this person is perfect for me, there's not way I can be unhappy with them" to "this is a real person with flaws, we may not be entirely compatible, they may have a hard time putting up with my flaws and I with theirs, but I feel this relationship is worth the try"; BUT without making it sound condescending like "yeah they have many flaws but I find them cute / I love this person more than their flaws bother me"?
...I guess one of the ways would be mentioning all the reasons why you LOVE them; but is hard to come up with significant/profound enough to outweight the cons, reasons to love someone using words.
For the first, ask yourself if there's any part of the story that's enhanced by them having a conflict. Maybe such an incident never comes up in the events of the story, maybe it will. Either's fine, the story could easily be based on them working as a team against an outside problem, it depends on who these characters are and what situations they face. Is the main conflict of the story supposed to be between them?
For the second, do either of them see each other as perfect, does that fit their personalities? If so, remember the old rule of "show don't tell" when writing their interactions and thoughts toward each other. You don't have to spell it out, just depict them as being more willing to disagree over time.
Basically, the idea I'm trying to get across is to let you're characters be who you envision them to be and write their romance based on that.
You say I am loved, when I don’t feel a thing. You say I am strong, when I think I am weak. You say I am held, when I am falling short.
Since I was a teen I've been reading various articles on internet about writing (though, I have yet to write anything in my life xD), and also some articles on romance and the types of love, and I came to the conclusion that what most people feel at the start of a relationship, being "in love", is called passion and it eventially ends making room to what we could actually call true/long lasting love, companionship/familial love; and that the idea of romantic love puts too much emphasis on passion, you're in love with the idea you have of a person (or of the both of you together) and not with the person themself note , and that's why too many relationships nowadays end in failure because people think everything should always go well and dandy when real love is about facing the struggles together. note
I like a gay couple from a mexican telenovela called "Que pobres tan ricos", Leonardo and Diego Armando; the first an Upper-Class Twit whose family loses all their money at the start of the novela, lazy and arrogant, says he is an artist but doesn't have any talent; the second a soccer player who, even though he does like sports, he doesn't want to do soccer for a living, but his dad is living his dreams vicariously through him and says arts, the things Diego is interested in studying, are for weirds (fags).
I like them because they're funny and cute, and because they both "support" each other in growing as persons, Leo advising Diego to stand up to his dad and choosing his own path in life and Diego convincing Leo to get a job and helping him discover his sexuality.
Still, for all that I liked them, and all the telenovela talked about how there's nothing wrong with being gay and that discriminating is bad, they never had an on-screen kiss while Every. Other. Couple. Had. Many., and that makes me mad; that's the main reason why I want to write fics of the telenovela, most of them centered on the two.
THE PROBLEM: Both characters have very distinct personalities note , so it's not hard for me to imagine funny and cute scenarios with them as a couple, hence I thought it would be easy for me to write them, but it turns out that's not the case, I realized it thanks to the fact that the first fic I want to write will be from the start of the telenovela; the fic will be written from their point of view, and I just cannot get into their heads to know how they think of each other, more important I don't know what made Diego fall in love with Leo in the first place.
Leo started showing interest after he realized Diego had a crush on him, and I guess he liked his personality / the way Diego flirted with him, but Diego seemed to spontaneously develop a crush the moment he meet Leo, and Leo did nothing special for him to, I mean, I guess he found him attractive, though he looked gay enough and was available... The telenovela frames it as Diego thinking Leo could teach him art without his dad realizing (Leo sees this as a chance to swindle some money from Diego), but he acts like a schoolgirl in love about it (one who uses very direct innuendos) and it's kinda jarring considering the fact he's very touchy with the gay topic and we later learn he never even had a boyfriend before Leo; I guess DA is just THAT into learning arts.
That, plus Leo's personality makes it hard for me to get into Diego's mindset in those moments, I don’t even know what he saw in him, I mean, maybe he thinks he's hot and funny and passionate about art? (Leo likes to talk, and he does know some things cause he likes to read and has gone to art museums and watched plays, though he didn’t actually do the art courses he says he did, he just lied to go party in New York)
I actually looked through google "how to write unlikeable love interests", letting aside the fact I found nothing, one of the pages I got from that search was this: https://www.deviantart.com/makingfunofstuff/art/How-Not-to-Write-Love-Interests-429572200
https://www.deviantart.com/makingfunofstuff/art/An-extension-of-How-not-to-Write-Love-Interests-443982731?ga_submit_new=10%253A1396327392
It resonates with what I said at first, when passion makes us idolize the other person, ergo we can only see the good things and not their flaws, we cannot call that true love, cause we're loving how we see them and not who they are; but it also goes on about how love is unchanging and "selfless" and not based on what the other person does for you.
I've always been wary of people that say things like (this is a quote I got from a book): "It's vain and selfish to say things like 'I love my wife because she's lively, cheerful and kind', what will happen when she gets old, cranky and severe? to say 'I love this woman cause she's my wife is something magnanimous'." But now what I'm doubting is whether to call that being selfless at all, I mean, if what you value is the fact of having a wife in itself, independently of how she acts, isn't loving her for it something you do for your own reasons?
True, those can't be the only reasons why you love your wife, and we ourselves change too, we can find new reasons to love our significant other; but the point I'm trying to get at is that if love is a choice there's always a reason, isn't it? You can't love someone just because, can you? And if someone stops giving you reasons to love them you don’t have to put up with them, do you? Love may be self sacrificing, and to stop loving someone not that easy, but that doesn’t mean you have to be in a relationship with someone if it’s not necessary and you no longer want to.
In fact, one of the reasons why I like Leo and Diego it's because their romance follows what I read some time ago in articles from this page:
https://jamigold.com/2012/08/michael-hauges-workshop-an-antidote-to-love-at-first-sight/
It basically says that to make romance beliable you must weave it into the character's' journey, each character has something they want and something they may or not know that they need, some wound that needs fixing, etc.; and even if you can make their wants be contrary to the other's if you so wish, they should always be able to fulfill at least one of the other's needs. note
I even thought of making a list of the things they can help each other with (and maybe are) by being together, so I can use it when writing the development of their relationship, but after reading what that Deviant Art user said I'm doubtful of this approach; especially now that I've seen some youtube videos about Manic Pixie Dream Girls, or the idea that your significant other will be someone perfectly fit to complement you / defy you in a way that makes you grow as as a person, ergo you see them as what they do for you which is wrong since persons are people, not devices.
THE QUESTION: What is the middle ground between these two ideas? Are they both wrong? Is there some other way of writing love? What are the reasons why people fall in love besides finding each other hot / doing nice things for each other? Is it necessary to give a reason as to why you characters love each other? How do you go from being in love (Passional) to loving someone (long lasting)? What I mean is how do you write both and the change while it's happening?
And unrelated to the other questions, but still the one that started everything, how do I write Diego Armando developing a crush for Leo?
Edited by Gabo352 on Jan 4th 2019 at 6:09:59 AM