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Unfortunate Implications Citation Discussion

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AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Mar 16th 2019 at 2:00:14 AM

If you can only find something behind a paywall, I wouldn't trust it. The page also directly says, "Also, citations stuck behind paywalls or mandatory logins don't count. If people can't see your proof, then it doesn't prove much."

Check out my fanfiction!
Pichu-kun ...
...
May 9th 2019 at 1:39:27 PM

This thread could also be used to find good citations.

Are there any proper citations about how The Princess and the Frog stars Disney's first (and thus far, only) black princess yet she spends most of the film as a frog? I've seen people complain about the unintended implications, but I've never seen a citation-worthy post.

Crossover-Enthusiast The Absolute Mad Lads from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
The Absolute Mad Lads
May 16th 2019 at 4:39:57 PM

Should Unfortunate Implications include characters and scenarios that were never actually included in their work of origin?

  • The "Steven Universe: Art & Origins" book has been accused of racial stereotyping as the design of one of the characters, a Gem named Concrete, includes her having dark skin and oversized lips, which some people believe resembles blackface, with the descriptions "Has a wicked shoe collection" and "Can't read" being seen as stereotypical. The creators apologized and removed her from later printings. (That said the latter was stated to be because Gems didn't have a written language when Concrete was created.)

And this one sounds dated:

  • The show has also been accused of giving an unfortunate portrayal of its Black-coded characters, particularly Sugilite, Sardonyx, and Bismuth, the main gist being that Sugilite, the fusion between Garnet and Amethyst, is represented as violent, hideous, and out of control, while Sardonyx, the fusion of Garnet and Pearl, is more attractive, elegant and poised, and even makes jabs at Sugilite for being "lesser" than her. Bismuth is, similarly to Sugilite, also accused of falling into the stereotype of a buff, non-feminine body along with an (eventual) violent, non-negotiable nature. Bismuth was later made more sympathetic in "Made of Honor", however.

SANS IS IN SMASH, EVERYONE GO HOME
May 16th 2019 at 4:53:53 PM

[up] The Concrete example is definitely valid, I remember there being a big controversy in the fandom over her appearance and illiteracy. Even if the character never made it into the show, she was still shown in an art book, so the work the example applies to is the book.

May 22nd 2019 at 4:57:57 PM

YMMV.Ronda Rousey as a You Tube channel link as a source. I don't know how credible You Tube channel is.

Gacha Is A Lie.
Pichu-kun ...
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May 22nd 2019 at 6:39:50 PM

[up][up][up]

I don't see a problem with the book example since it comes from an official, published book.

On a similar note, I've seen a lot of controversies surrounding SU but it's difficult finding good citations for them. Most are just from someone's personal Tumblr or Youtube rant.

Edited by Pichu-kun on May 22nd 2019 at 6:40:55 AM

sgamer82 from Meridian, ID
Jun 4th 2019 at 11:25:17 AM

A possibly odd question: Can the work itself be the citation? I had this entry in mind and wanted to vet it first.

  • During the Lavender Town episodes of Pokémon World Tour: United, the characters participate in the Festival of Life, a celebration that winds up resembling Día de Muertos, the Day of the Dead. In episode 35's intermission Jake, who plays Rose Jenny, states that he realized as they recorded that they may have strayed into culturally insensitive territory without meaning to and requests feedback on the matter. Episode 37 opens with Jake explaining that they got that feedback, with reactions ranging from "It's okay, don't worry about it" to statements that they felt uncomfortable for reasons such as the cast treating the celebration too frivolously. Jake makes special note of one response which explains that because the character Tsubaki, who opposes the Festival of Life and who the hosts themselves regard as the villain of the arc, came off Unintentionally Sympathetic, it appeared as if the hosts themselves regarded the Festival, and by extension Día de Muertos, negatively. The hosts assert this was not their intent, apologize to those left offended or otherwise uncomfortable, and retcon some of the details of what's been happening, such as toning down the decoration of skull masks the characters got, to try and better regard the celebration with the respect it deserves.

Note: I got Día de Muertos from Wikipedia but have also seen Dio de Los Muertos. I'm not sure which is correct so I went with the odds and used Wikipedia's version.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 4th 2019 at 12:28:31 PM

Plus, remember how in Eragon everyone cries "a single tear"? Yeah, just try that with One Piece and see if it works
Pichu-kun ...
...
Jun 9th 2019 at 6:33:19 AM

On a separate note, Unfortunate Implications is a citation-only trope so should it be avoided in sentences? I've seen it used in examples, even when it's not the point of the example.

Jun 9th 2019 at 7:31:05 AM

[up][up] There are a few examples on the page where the work's creators realized that something could have Unfortunate Implications and preemptively acted to correct it. The point of the citations rule is to prove that it's not just you getting offended, and if the authors themselves admit that they could potentially offend people, that's sufficient proof.

[up] I agree that Unfortunate Implications should avoid being Potholed to.

Jun 9th 2019 at 12:36:50 PM

[up] Now I know. Should we add somewhere that the creators apologizing for and trying to fix said implications is citation enough they don't need a link?

sgamer82 from Meridian, ID
Jun 9th 2019 at 12:44:33 PM

The impression I'm getting is that the important thing is that the implications are acknowledged by someone or something more than "just some random dude" and that the entry should be able to point to where that is.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 9th 2019 at 2:03:31 AM

Plus, remember how in Eragon everyone cries "a single tear"? Yeah, just try that with One Piece and see if it works
Siegfried1337 Smug Grail from Fuyuki Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Smug Grail
Jun 12th 2019 at 1:49:22 PM

Found this from GARO Kami No Kiba JINGA:

No citation is sourced.

Does this look like the face of Mercy to you?
Jun 12th 2019 at 3:37:22 PM

[up][up]That entry also uses characterization tags, which isn't allowed on the wiki.

nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jun 12th 2019 at 11:50:03 PM

[up][up]No quotation makes it a moot point, but it actually does sound like Unfortunate Implications to me, since the note makes it sound like the character isn't actually a pedophile even by inference.

Siegfried1337 Smug Grail from Fuyuki Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
Smug Grail
Jul 16th 2019 at 2:15:13 PM

Found in The Homestuck Epilogues:

  • Unfortunate Implications: The Epilogues handle the topic of suicide in a remarkably irresponsible way. First, Dirk's suicide is portrayed in graphic detail for shock value, which a few studies suggest is medically inadvisable. Second, it's implied through the Split Timeline Plot that Dirk's personality would inevitably precipitate his becoming a monster unless he killed himself, which is a toxic message to send to fans who identified with Dirk. Third, Dave and Karkat say that preventing Dirk's suicide would have been a "fucked up" overriding of his autonomy, and this assertion goes unchallenged; if you have to override someone's autonomy to prevent them taking their own life, do it.

No citation sourced.

Edited by Siegfried1337 on Jul 16th 2019 at 2:15:24 AM

Does this look like the face of Mercy to you?
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere
Planeswalker
Jul 17th 2019 at 1:46:11 PM

That third point probably goes under Family-Unfriendly Aesop.

Oissu!
Pichu-kun ...
...
Jul 29th 2019 at 12:46:27 PM

This entry from Mulan's page needs a citation. I've seen complaints about this, so it's a valid thing.

  • The dehumanizing depiction of the Hun army as ash-skinned and brutish warmongers have only aged more poorly with time due to its xenophobic connotations. This is particularly the case with the West as there has been a huge spike in anti-immigrant and anti-immigration sentiments. The Huns are Acceptable Targets as they no longer exist as a people today. Depicting the Huns with ash-skin may have been intended to make them ethnically ambiguous so as to not offend similar nomadic ethnic groups which do still exist. The Chinese release of Mulan identifies the Hun as the Xiongnu (also an ethnic group which no longer exists) as China was never invaded by the Huns and Chinese audiences may not be so familiar with them whereas Western audiences are more knowledgeable of the Huns than the Xiongnu. Although a popular theory is that the Huns were the Xiongnu who had decided to move westwards into Europe and had incorporated many other ethnic groups after having been defeated by the Chinese Han Dynasty.

WarJay77 The googly-eyed monstrosity from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
The googly-eyed monstrosity
Jul 29th 2019 at 12:48:11 PM

[up] However, does it really need to also mention that the situation may not be that bad and offer reasons why? Isn't it more important to just focus on the controversy itself, and not the other side?

IDK, could be wrong, just feels a bit weird to me.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jul 29th 2019 at 1:20:14 PM

[up]That really reads like a Justifying Edit incorporated into the original example - it's not only inappropriate but also really awkwardly written. I actually personally think it makes much more sense than the alleged Unfortunate Implications, but that very much isn't the place.

Edited by nrjxll on Jul 29th 2019 at 3:20:53 AM

Pichu-kun ...
...
Jul 29th 2019 at 2:30:13 PM

The example needs to be cleaned up before it's added back. I commented it out for now.

Jul 29th 2019 at 2:47:37 PM

If you let me an opinion about the Mulan example, it seems like a stretch to compare the despiction of the Huns to the anti-immigration sentiment in the west. And then it drifts too much by talking how the movie was changed in China instead of focusing on the controversy (if there is any).

I think it should be cut, but the later half may be placed under Cultural Translation.

Sorry to barge in.
Pichu-kun ...
...
Aug 9th 2019 at 10:42:45 AM

  • There has been criticism, such as in this IGN article, of the sexualization of female characters in One Piece. Most of the female cast have roughly the same body type, with Barbie Doll-like proportions of wide hips, thin waists, and large breasts, and often similar faces as well. As well, the article mentions an incident where Sanji, who is supposed to be one of the sympathetic protagonists, is switched into the body of his crewmate Nami, on whom he has a crush, and takes the opportunity to sexually harass her with her own body. Both the other characters and seemingly the author treat this as a joke.

This example was deleted because the link is dead. Is there a good replacement link?

Edited by Pichu-kun on Aug 9th 2019 at 10:44:14 AM

chasemaddigan This is Unicorn!
This is Unicorn!
Aug 9th 2019 at 11:06:57 AM

[up] Here's an archived version of the article.

Pichu-kun ...
...
Aug 23rd 2019 at 1:22:17 PM

Is this considered sourced?

YMMV.The Princess Series:

  • Unfortunate Implications - Talia, the princess who was raped, is also a lesbian, and given some conservative's ideas about the causes of homosexuality it comes across as creepy and insulting. Acknowledged and regret expressed for in this post on his LiveJournal. The rape isn't a canon explanation, though some characters in-universe likely believe it.


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