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ShazamJr Since: Oct, 2014
#326: Apr 3rd 2021 at 7:55:42 AM

There really should be an index so that can differentiate between tropes that are for character pages and ones that aren't

wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#327: Apr 3rd 2021 at 9:05:55 AM

Character Tropes is an index; one position on the debate is that only tropes that ultimately index there are character tropes.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#328: Apr 3rd 2021 at 9:44:17 AM

Also, which tropes belong on that index.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#329: Apr 3rd 2021 at 5:04:49 PM

I think if a fighting game character has Groin Attack as a special move, that is a valid reason to list it on their character sheet entry in the same way that listing Playing with Fire for a character with fire powers would be.

However, if every character has the ability to pull a Groin Attack, or every character had fire powers (e.g. because they're all fire elementals), there would be no sense listing those tropes for each individual member of the cast.

So there isn't really a clear-cut "these belong on character pages and these don't" because those categories can shift depending on the context within a work.

Even sticking to Character Tropes... Criminals is listed as a subindex to that, and Bandito is listed on that. So that goes on a character sheet, right? But what if every character is a Bandito because the work is about rivalries between a bunch of different bandit gangs in Mexico?

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#330: Apr 3rd 2021 at 6:21:32 PM

Yes, the description of Playing with Fire is about characterizing people with fire powers. No, Groin Attack does not provide characterization to the person making the attack. Yes, Bandito describes characters, even when the story is a remake of The Magnificent Seven, where basically everyone is a Mexican criminal.

Just because a work is about "people with X characterization" doesn't mean they don't have X as characterization. A character trope (something an actor has to be aware of) doesn't become a setting trope (something that backdrop artists have to be aware of) just because there's more of them. A fantasy setting doesn't become a plot trope because of another plot trope. A plot trope doesn't become a character trope just because the character is put into that situation multiple times.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#331: Apr 15th 2021 at 11:41:47 AM

If Groin Attack can be actually associated with the character (and not just the work,) it's fine to put on the character sheet. In the vast majority of works, this is not the case.

VulgarBee I AM KING OF THE BEACH!! from End of the Other Side Since: Jun, 2016 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
I AM KING OF THE BEACH!!
#332: May 31st 2021 at 4:46:27 PM

Can Awful Truth get put in a character page?

wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#333: May 31st 2021 at 6:13:39 PM

Don't think that's a character trope.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#334: May 31st 2021 at 6:56:47 PM

^^^ How can you associate a Groin Attack with just a single character? Is it a running gag?

^^ Plot trope all day long.

Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#335: May 31st 2021 at 7:03:21 PM

[up] This post mentioned a fighting game character who has Groin Attack as a recurring special attack.

wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#336: Jun 1st 2021 at 1:44:30 PM

Would a Retcon regarding one specific character go in the character folder? It might not normally be a "character trope", but it is in this instance definitely a trope about a character...

this is that grey area we're all still arguing about, isn't it

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
Malady (X-Troper)
#337: Jun 1st 2021 at 3:24:56 PM

Stick it in the character description, but put in as plot.

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#338: Jun 1st 2021 at 7:43:53 PM

[up] This is why we have character descriptions in the first place: to describe their impact-on/impacted-by plots, characterization elements, and relationship with other characters. Retcon examples aren't about characterization, it's just that this example may affect characterization, so it should go with the other non-characterization tropes and its effect on the character is part of their (short) biography.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#339: Jun 5th 2021 at 2:21:07 PM

So, I've been thinking, while the July 2020 ATT said that Death Tropes should not be on character pages, do you think they would apply to all of them (including some which also function as characterization tropes)?

Edited by gjjones on Jun 5th 2021 at 5:21:43 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#340: Jun 5th 2021 at 10:02:50 PM

Not all Death Tropes are spoilery so listing non-spoilery tropes shouldn't be an issue. Like, Kenny McCormick has a theme of death for his character, but it rarely affects the continuity so it's not an issue to list it.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#341: Jun 6th 2021 at 7:29:34 PM

[up]The same can be said for Scratchy the Cat, debuting nine years earlier in the Simpsons Shorts.

Kirby is awesome.
Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#342: Jun 7th 2021 at 5:20:59 AM

1. I don't understand why tropes on character pages should be non-spoilery. I've never heard about such policy before.

2. The way the character dies often speaks a lot about them, so I believe such tropes are ok on character pages, as well as tropes about their birth and alignment change (Face–Heel Turn, Heel–Face Turn and the like).

3. Also, take Sylvanas in WoW. How does one add tropes to her Character Sheet without mentioning her death? It is integral to who she is as a character (she is undead, she dies in the beginning of her long story and that is her Cynicism Catalyst).

How would one write character pages for WoW's current expansion, the Shadowlands, with this restriction in place? According to the plot, the barrier between life and death is broken. The living enter the afterlife in flesh to fix the issue and meet dead characters chilling out there, with their deaths being heavily mentioned/explored.

Edited for clarity.

Edited by Asherinka on Jun 7th 2021 at 3:29:00 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#343: Jun 7th 2021 at 10:39:16 AM

[up] The thought process for the spoiler-tropes issue is that tropes themselves can't be spoiler tagged; that's against the rules. So to handle blatantly spoilering tropes, such as death tropes, the idea is that moving them off the Character page is an easier way to avoid spoiling things.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
bwburke94 I am mad scientist! It's so cool! from 1.048596% (Y2: Electric Boogaloo) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
I am mad scientist! It's so cool!
#344: Jun 7th 2021 at 12:51:01 PM

Technically speaking, are undeath tropes affected by this rule?

2025: the year it all ends?
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#345: Jun 7th 2021 at 8:09:10 PM

[up]There is no hard rule. If the death trope has to do with characterization (e.g. Kenny) or is a major part of the character, it belongs.

Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#346: Jun 7th 2021 at 8:31:45 PM

[up]They Killed Kenny Again is an acceptable death trope for fictional characters (and fictionalized real-life characters), such as the trope namer and Scratchy the Cat, given that the trope is impossible in real life due to Final Death.

By the way, speaking of cats, is The Cat Came Back an acceptable character trope?

Edited by Nen_desharu on Jun 7th 2021 at 11:33:04 AM

Kirby is awesome.
RallyBot2 (Elder Troper) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#347: Jun 7th 2021 at 8:44:41 PM

TIL that trope exists.

But yes, the character who "comes back" can have this as a character trope.

Asherinka from Winterfell Since: Jan, 2018
#348: Jun 7th 2021 at 11:43:02 PM

@War Jay 77 "So to handle blatantly spoilering tropes, such as death tropes, the idea is that moving them off the Character page is an easier way to avoid spoiling things."

But why should we avoid spoiling things on character pages specifically? They are subpages of main pages, why should the policy be any different from the main pages? I don't get it.

Death sometimes changes the entire perception of the character, removing Redemption Equals Death from Darth Vader's page because of "spoilers" does not feel right.

Also, it was previously discussed that Heel–Face Turn and the like are ok on character pages. They are spoilery too, right?

Edited by Asherinka on Jun 7th 2021 at 9:51:29 PM

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#349: Jun 7th 2021 at 11:47:37 PM

Well, theoretically on the main work page you could spoil-tag who dies and not spoil anyone. But when the death trope is in a character bio, that immediately spoils the reader even if the information is tagged. So it becomes a question of if it's better to not have spoiler tags at all, or to move that particular trope off.

In essence, we aren't supposed to spoil readers if we can help it. That doesn't mean we should tag everything, but we don't want readers to stumble upon blatant spoilers that can't be tagged because the trope name itself is a spoiler.

And listen, I was only explaining the thought process, don't come at me, it's not my idea and I'm not enforcing it by any means. I just understand why the idea exists.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 7th 2021 at 2:49:25 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#350: Jun 7th 2021 at 11:49:12 PM

Seeing Cruel and Unusual Death listed on the main page for a work doesn't spoil who dies. Seeing it listed in a character's folder does.

It's not that character pages need to hide spoilers more aggressively — it's that they need to hide spoilers equally aggressively, but that means acting differently.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.

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