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doomrider7 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#301: Feb 7th 2019 at 4:34:59 PM

[up]

Yeah I've read it and it was...creepy at times. Like the stuff with the elf girl before he even realised she was a girl was legit creepy as was the whole thing with him finding his "mom" and pseudo-step mom hot and sometimes check them out.

Prime32 Since: Jan, 2001
#302: Feb 7th 2019 at 7:18:37 PM

IIRC there's a part where he travels with a Proud Warrior Race Guy with a Blue-and-Orange Morality that divides everyone into "warriors" and "children to be protected". At some point he reveals that he's never seen the protagonist as a child, only as a warrior, which moves him to tears.

I remember him acting creepy at times... but it also felt like Dead Guy and Rudeus have different personalities due to The Mind Is a Plaything of the Body, and that when Rudeus does it he's "running on fumes". That is, he's trying to retain continuity with his This Loser Is You past self by acting out the behaviours in his memories, even though he doesn't have exactly the same underlying desires or instincts any more. Sort of like what happens to Ainz's moral compass in Overlord. Or like how Luffy is an "adventuresexual" who can normally stare at naked people without batting an eyelid, but will join Usopp in peeping on baths because he's "a bad influence" - except in Rudeus's case the bad influence is... himself?

It seems like something that could come across differently depending on medium. IIRC the manga depicts him visualising himself as his original body all the time, while in the LN he seems almost disappointed when he learns that his disembodied spirit still looks like Dead Guy rather than Rudeus (as if he feels guilty for still having attachments to that life).

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#303: Feb 8th 2019 at 1:43:34 AM

@Chariot - People getting into Shield Hero depends on whether they can get past the 'MC literally is a slave owner' and 'he was falsely accused of rape' elements - at least at the very start. If you don't mind those things, there's a lot that is compelling... assuming you can get past the problematic things mentioned in this thread that crop up later. I won't summarise them here because the past few pages go into it in a lot more detail than I have time for.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Feb 8th 2019 at 9:45:50 AM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Chariot King of Anime Since: Jul, 2014
King of Anime
#304: Feb 8th 2019 at 7:12:34 AM

I'm aware. I haven't read/watched Shield Hero because while I can get over the slave stuff despite it making me uncomfortable the other elements are a no for me. Hence why I said I should have learned to be wary from all the praise it gets. That said, I did start on the Spear Hero spinoff and while it's better it's still got some pretty bad elements and I'm probably not going to continue it once I finish volume 1.

MABfan11 from Remnant Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#305: Feb 8th 2019 at 7:35:38 AM

i do have a feeling that i know the non-controversial elements that made Shield Hero so popular: strong characterization, catharsis and payoff. by quickly establishing Malty as a Hate Sink and give her a strong presence early in the story that makes it so much more satisfying when she's knocked down a peg. however i'm not familiar with the source material, so i don't know how the WN, LN and anime compares to each other

Bumbleby is best ship. busy spending time on r/RWBY and r/anime. Unapologetic Socialist
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#306: Feb 8th 2019 at 8:36:50 AM

[up]I seriosly have a problem with evil princess having to rename herself bitch and dirt and later being sold as sex slave being catharsis for so many people.

doomrider7 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#307: Feb 8th 2019 at 8:44:36 AM

[up]

Beat me to it. It's just so fucking sleazy and juvenile. Someone ones decribed it as being like something a school shooter would come up with. I have more thoughts on this that I need to organize before I post them since I'm on my phone.

MABfan11 from Remnant Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#308: Feb 8th 2019 at 8:53:26 AM

by the way, how long does it take before the problematic elements (aside from the slavery) which re-contextualizes the beginning starts happening in the WN and LN? and how far away from it is the anime adaptation? (taking into account that it is confirmed to be a 2 cour adaptation)

Bumbleby is best ship. busy spending time on r/RWBY and r/anime. Unapologetic Socialist
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#309: Feb 8th 2019 at 8:58:35 AM

I mean, I kind of feel like the misogyny and fear of female agency is a constant background presence. It's not so much that bad things show up later as it is that existing trends get taken to their logical conclusion.

What's precedent ever done for us?
MABfan11 from Remnant Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#310: Feb 8th 2019 at 9:42:56 AM

...and now i'm wondering why it got so popular, because it's impossible to get popular on that alone (hopefully), there has to be some technical aspect it did right to gain such popularity, right?

Bumbleby is best ship. busy spending time on r/RWBY and r/anime. Unapologetic Socialist
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#311: Feb 8th 2019 at 9:59:46 AM

It's not that far in either. The manga hadn't racked up that many chapters before it appeared there...

Edited by GoldenKaos on Feb 8th 2019 at 5:59:58 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#312: Feb 8th 2019 at 10:15:51 AM

@MAB Fan I think it's what you say regarding strong characterization, catharsis and payoff. And due to it being the first revenge Isekai as far as I recall with not so OP protagonist in the beginning/protagonist with huge flaws which made the series popular. That and some people are probably attracted with the raccoon mascot of the LN Raphtallia... I'm salty that peeps didnt talk about Milim wheeeee

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#313: Feb 8th 2019 at 12:43:46 PM

Probably popular because it's relatively decent overall with a couple of flaws. For anyone who isn't picky about singular issues, or doesn't care about those issues, it's not bad at all.

[up]Raphtalia is very easy character to like, though.

Edited by AnotherDuck on Feb 8th 2019 at 9:44:40 PM

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Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#314: Feb 8th 2019 at 1:25:30 PM

It's worth noting that the Shield Hero LN series was fairly niche, and what popularity it had was waning by the time it got an anime. In other words, the incel/incel-adjacent crowd was probably enough to account for much of its initial fanbase, plus a few who were just on board for 'isekai + revenge narrative'. It seems to mostly be big at the moment because a dude at Crunchyroll really liked it and helped fund an extremely glossy animated adaptation before marketing the fuck out of it.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#315: Feb 8th 2019 at 2:22:42 PM

[up]...Huh. I wonder if they're trying to counteract the High Guardian Spice marketing fiasco?

Edited by Kayeka on Feb 8th 2019 at 11:23:14 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#316: Feb 8th 2019 at 2:38:10 PM

I just looked that up. Wow, what was Crunchyroll thinking?

Edited by VeryMelon on Feb 8th 2019 at 7:35:24 AM

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#317: Feb 8th 2019 at 2:49:15 PM

[up]I blame the studio making the show, really. Like, I get what they were going for, but that announcement fell completely flat.

In any case, it was just some musing. I highly doubt Crunchy planned to counteract that controversy by appealing to all the bigots they've offended with this show.

If only because that would force me to cancel my subscription.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#318: Feb 8th 2019 at 4:08:06 PM

Personally I guessed Tate no Yuusha was going to become popular the moment the anime was announced. I read the original Web novel and already saw it had all the factors that would attract these people.

1.A plot point that stirs controversy which causes fans to double down on defending it.

2.A "not your typical Isekai" when really it still uses the generic Isekai tropes but used way more seriously and has better production values.

3.Waifu bait the same way Rem is with super undying loyalty.

4.The protagonist is an outcast surrounded by assholes that try to shut him down and he gets to show how wrong they are by being awesome. Or in other cases just express doubt and then be shut down when the MC shows his stuff.

5. OP protagonist just subtle enough in power to actually be excusable.

6. A protagonist with slightly more personality and edge so they can go on and on about how bad the generic Isekai protagonist is and how awesome he is.

In other worlds, non-standard OP protagonist, subversion of a usual trope, fight one-dimensionally evil or ineffectual villains, waifu bait, surrounded by people who exist just to make the MC look good.

For example, Gate has, in order, the military, curbstomps a fantasy ay instead of the other way around, the Prince and all those that oppose the Japanese invasion, Itami's harem, the average civilian of the empire.

Goblin slayer: GS, goblins not being mooks and get slaughtered graphically, goblins, his harem, the average person who underestimates Goblins.

Overlord: Ainz, being a Villain Protagonist, his enemies aren't always evil but are always pathetically weak, Albedo, Nazarick.

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#319: Feb 8th 2019 at 4:36:22 PM

Wait...I thought Goblin Slayer is not an Isekai and just being a Fantasy all around it.

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#320: Feb 8th 2019 at 4:48:28 PM

[up]Correct. It shares a lot of the same DNA, so it's probably fine to consider it an Isekai-adjacent work, but by definition it isn't an Isekai.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Feb 8th 2019 at 12:51:01 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#321: Feb 8th 2019 at 4:51:01 PM

Fair point. But the formula still stands. If an anime has controversy and yet still popular, I'm sure at least one of the above factors is in play.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#322: Feb 8th 2019 at 4:56:57 PM

[up] I agree. GS shares a lot of tropes with your standard isekai, so I consider it very reasonable to lump it in the same ballpark at the very least.

Incidentally, the more I read isekai and 'standard fantasy' manga, the more I get annoyed at the art choice to draw 90% of the buildings as boring flat structures that look like they came flatpacked in a sodding box. I know it's not exactly their priority, but would it kill them to put in a little effort to make the buildings look like they aren't video game assets from the 90s?

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#323: Feb 8th 2019 at 5:03:08 PM

It says a lot about how oversaturated that genre has become honestly.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#324: Feb 8th 2019 at 5:09:40 PM

It's getting to the point where I can't tell the difference between the slice of life manga about starting a pharmacy, a cafe or a library in another world, let alone the dumb power fantasy harem garbage.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#325: Feb 8th 2019 at 5:14:08 PM

Yeah, GS is one of those similar works to isekais. They follow the same tropes, and very often have some kind of connection to game mechanics and features (like an adventurer's guild, especially with game-like ranks). I mean, a lot of people forget that Is It Wrong To Try To Pick Up Girls In A Dungeon isn't an isekai.

To me that shows how pointless the isekai part really is to many of these works. Make the MC a native, and you're not going to change a whole lot. Those where it's important is when the MC has OP knowledge of modern technology and stuff. Usually far more than a loser like the MC usually is would realistically have.

I think it's fair to bring up those isekai-like works as a comparison to those isekais discussed here, although probably only as long as the latter are the main focus in this thread.

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