Incidentally, looking at a side by side comparison
of Ruby's memory of Summer from volume 6, and the version we get in volume 7, I think the volume 6 version was Ruby's idealized version of the last time she saw her mother, and Salem casually mentioning "oh your mother said that to me" (implying that Salem at some point met Summer, and had something to do with her not coming back) brought back the real, far less Rose Colored memory.
Is it me or are team RWBY really getting hit with the Ron the Death Eater stick here?
There's a few things that bug me about the fight with Watts and Ironwood:
- Watts. His scheme here was to have Tyrian throw a distraction while he went to Amity to hack in. He gets ambushed and fights Ironwood directly. It just seems like he was doing the whole "man behind the scenes" thing and his only recourse here was to get into a gunfight with a decorated general - who as one would expect proceeded to beat the sh-t out of him.
- Why count bullets? What did that accomplish? He's "smart?" I keep rewatching that fight but I don't see how that played into him trapping Ironwood's arm. Expecting your enemy to "hear" you counting bullets in order to lull them into a false sense of security - not sure if that's ingenious or just dumb.
- He even turned his back on Ironwood - that was definitely dumb. Did he need to turn around to hack into a computer system?
- This fight demonstrates how silly gunfights must look on Remnant - I mean it looked cool when they're jumping around, gravity going every which way, but then I see Ironwood dual-wielding while running along a surface, still 5-10 shots away from doing any significant damage to Watts. Most anime at least have the decency to have characters suffer from Stormtrooper Aim, or have characters with superhuman agility who can regularly dodge bullets.
- If Ironwood "counted" the number of bullets Watts had - or overheard him - then why did he stop when they had their guns pointed at each other? It seems like he planned to kill Watts regardless.
Other then that:
- got way too turned on when Evil Cortana was leaning towards Ironwood
- I feel like that wasn't unintentional
- Can't wait for the STRQ spin-off
Edited by Soble on Jan 23rd 2020 at 6:34:46 AM
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
It's probably so he didn't lose track of how many shots he had left. A lot of times in media characters get so caught up in a fight they lose track of how many shots they have left, so when they go to make another shot they see they're out of ammo. Hell, its not limited to media. I was using my brothers Oculus the other day and doing a gun range simulator, there were times on the shooting range I got so frustrated when I missed a target that I lost track of my ammo and tried to fire with an empty clip. Watts counting how many shots he has left is a way for him to strategize on how to make every shot count.
I think the reality is probably somewhere between those two images. The idealised vision is what Summer made her child feel and Salem's is what Summer was really feeling and tried to hide from her child. The reality of what came across in the actual moment would be somewhere between what Summer wanted her child to see and what Summer didn't want her child to see.
Has anyone gone Ron the Death Eater over this episode yet (on this forum)? You've pulled quotes from my post, so I'll respond from my perspective.
I'm not even close to applying Ron the Death Eater to anyone in this show. As I said in my post, I don't believe any one individual carries the blame. The point of this volume is that the heroes have different factions and they've all made mistakes that have made it hard for them to trust each other at the critical moment when they need to come together, giving the villains something they can crack wide open at that critical moment.
As I said in my post, I do think Team RWBY has been kicking around Protagonist-Centred Morality for a while. Given that this volume has started to lampshade that, I think there's an intentional link to that trope which hopefully means that character development over time will resolve it as they learn how to function as adults instead of children. Right now, they're still approaching complex problems more like children than adults — that doesn't absolve any of the adults of their own mistakes, this is solely about Team RWBY's mistakes for now.
When Qrow asked what happened in the Vault, Yang said she didn't know exactly, when she got there, Cinder was gone.
Somehow, Yang's gone from 'don't know exactly' and 'Cinder was gone' to believing Cinder was dead — entirely off-screen.
The reason why the fandom debated whether or not Cinder was alive is because the audience saw what happened to Cinder, things Yang never saw. It was based on whether she could break out of the ice that had frozen her solid and survive a fall from a cliff of unknown height — both things Yang knew nothing about.
A difference of interpretation is rarely a 'pretty big leap' unless someone is speculating something that just doesn't exist. You and I have a different interpretation of Yang's tone and body language. That's fine, but that's all it is.
There's two reasons: it's an indication that Watts like to keep track of his bullets (which can indicate someone isn't a natural fighter or is meticulous in the actions they take). And it can be a tactic for a variety of different reasons that I can think of, most of which have nothing to do with what panned out in this particular fight.
The reason I think there's a link between Watts counting bullets and Ironwood dropping his guard is because I feel that's exactly what I saw happen in the fight, as follows:
At the end of the fight, Watts has his gun to Ironwood's head and is acting like there's one bullet left. Ironwood points out he can count, too, and lowers his head and arms slightly. That's a visible moment of dropping his guard. Watts promptly says 'I know' and discards his gun, and Ironwood glances in the direction the gun is thrown, which is an even more noticeable moment of distraction. That's when he gets slapped into the shield.
So, my interpretation is that Watts used the bullet counting to help mess with Ironwood's sense of superiority, which resulted in Ironwood dropping his guard just long enough to get trapped.
I'm not discussing whether or not the fight strategy is dumb, that's another conversation entirely and not likely to be one I get into much since I don't generally debate to change how people feel about something; I'm more likely to discuss different perspectives of how something might be viewed.
My perspective is that the way the fight unfolded does suggest the bullet counting was deliberately linked to an attempt to lower Ironwood's guard enough to gain the upper hand at the very end. I feel that Watts has a very good understanding of Ironwood's personality, but that he underestimated Ironwood's... I don't know whether to call it resolve or desperation.
Watts clearly underestimated what Ironwood was willing to do to escape the shield. He appeared to me to not believe anyone would be insane enough to risk their own limb by trying to pull it out of the shield. I think it's possible that Watts had incorrectly factored the amount of metal in Ironwood's body into how Ironwood would treat his remaining biological arm (that he would want to protect it rather than lose it).
However, while Watts clearly underestimated the lengths Ironwood was willing to go to just to escape that shield, his parting comment does indicate that, while Ironwood may have scuppered Watts' personal goal in that fight (a direct victory over Ironwood), it's still fully played into Salem's wider goal, thereby giving Watts a chance to obtain his revenge another way — indirectly (hence his pleased, almost gloating, 'Oh, I hope you do' comment at the end).
It looked more to me like he wanted Watts arrested, not killed. I feel that the significant trigger for Ironwood's change in mentality came after that — it was when Watts made the crack about the amount of metal in Ironwood's body that Ironwood seemed to descend into 'sacrifice everything' mode. Prior to that, he was still tentative about whether or not to risk his arm.
I like that way of describing it. I think that's a good assessment.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 23rd 2020 at 6:50:16 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
It also helps that Watts' weapon is a Revolver. Revolvers need to be reloaded individually unlike everyone elses weapons that just need clips or cartridges, so it would take him a lot more time and effort to reload, which he doesn't have in the middle of a fire fight. Once he runs out, his only option left is his rings, so he has no choice but to make every shot count.
And I still don't see how RWBY is engaged in Protagonist-Centered Morality. Maybe Ruby and Yang, but how are Weiss and Blake engaged in that?
Edited by RebelFalcon on Jan 23rd 2020 at 2:12:21 PM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.Volume 7 Chapter 12 ACTUAL Thumbnail, Title and Description [1]
Title
With Friends Like These
Description
Summary: With Salem's forces drawing closer, and the General's orders for their arrest, our heroes are forced to fight on all fronts to save the city Ironwood has abandoned
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By asociation, he is since they are with them.
Also, seen how ironwood is becoming more of a antagonist, I can finally use this on him.
"Man is evil" "Man must become better and eviler" "So do I teach" "Also to the good, a noble [one] stands in the way" "And even when tell call him a good man" "They want to edge him aside that way"
Now we need is him proclaming atlas science is the best on the world....
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"![]()
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Part of PCM is that it's a form of hypocrisy.
"When I do something bad, it's good. When you do that same thing, you're bad."
Case in point, Ruby lies to Ironwood and goes behind his back. This is mostly seen as a good thing because Ironwood is uNtRuStWoRtHy, but when Ironwood lies about Amity being complete to lure out one of Salem's men and take him out (thus taking one of Salem's pieces off the table), suddenly he's the villain.
It's akin to how Ruby decided to steal an airship. If it was Roman or Adam doing it, they would be evil, but because this is Ruby, suddenly she's the good guy.
Edited by Psyga315 on Jan 23rd 2020 at 12:40:38 PM
Still don't see how that applies to Weiss or Blake. I'm fully on board with saying Ruby and Yang fit the trope, since their self-righteousness always irritates me and reminds me of the worse parts of Fairy Tail, but I can't see how it fits Weiss and Blake in this particular case.
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.I've pointed it out before: Team RWBY spent the entire Volume benefitting from Ironwood's power and turning a blind eye to his oppression, only to immediately turn on him and accuse him of being in the wrong when his views stop lining up with theirs.
That's pretty hypocritical in my book.
Putting that together with "We can lie to Ironwood, but Ozpin lying to us was wrong" and "It's ok that we're stealing a military airship and leaving an entire city in danger, we're the heroes who know better than them how important our mission is", and the narrative always taking Team RWBY's side on those matters, I'd say yeah, that's a lot of Protagonist-Centered Morality.
Although I'm not entirely convinced the show has started calling them out any of that either. I think the show is still almost entirely on Team RWBY's side here.
Another thing I'd seen pointed out (that will likely go unmentioned) is Ruby just gave away to Salem that Ozpin was lying to the Headmaster's that the Lamp was out of questions. Ozpin told them the same thing according to Ironwood so Leo if asked would've passed that lie along. Now Salem knows it had at least one left so maybe it has another. And there just happens to be a Relic under Beacon she can't find...
Edited by doineedaname on Jan 23rd 2020 at 8:45:58 AM
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- One, only Ruby was okay with lying to Ironwood. The others kept giving her grief over her lying and didn't approve, even acknowledging the potential hypocrisy.
- Two, they didn't turn a blind eye. Jaune gave a scathing break down of Ironwood's faults, and Nora gave him a heated “The Reason You Suck” Speech. And one of the very reasons they are being distrusted by him now is because Yang and Blake went and told Robyn about Amity, in direct opposition to what Ironwood wanted because they weren't okay with keeping Robyn in the dark when doing so would just cause more issues.
- Three, the closest you can say they benefited from his facism was that they became licensed huntsmen, but as Weiss points out, its pretty much a formality for them since they had been doing this stuff before, they just now have some data on their scrolls making it official. The only real benefit having a license gave them was making sure they didn't get arrested just for using their weapons.
- Four, they didn't put Argus in danger. Cordovin escalated the situation beyond reason by using the Colossus and was attempting to kill them, and they fought back to disable her. The Leviathan, Manticores, and Sphinx were attracted to Argus due to all the tremors Cordovin was causing from her fighting making the people panic. And the protagonists were willing to stay and help clean up Argus alongside Cordovin, she just told them to go to Atlas while she did her job and actually protected Argus. Even if you want to argue the protagonists were Karma Houdini, the narrative doesn't frame them as being in the right, otherwise they wouldn't have had Ruby apologize to Cordovin when frankly, she had no reason to.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Jan 23rd 2020 at 9:16:06 AM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.Yeah, anyone saying they just ignored Ironwood's worse tendencies isn't just offering and interpretation, there actively wrong and ignoring what was shown in the show.
In fact a significant part of the reason they lied to him in the first place is because they were immediately put off by his police state.
Something they argue about with him multiple times.
Edited by Slater130 on Jan 23rd 2020 at 6:55:56 AM
The others gave her grief once, and then agreed to wait it out, supporting the lie through inaction. Oscar (who's not part of Team RWBY) does disagree, but he has Ozpin in his head, so he has added reasons to be bothered about the whole deal. And even then he just goes along with it as well. Yang and Blake did later go behind Ruby and Ironwood's backs, but, as said, that was somewhat hypocritical on it's own.
In fact, the weirdest one here is Ruby, who lies to Ironwood on first contact, but then spends the rest of the Volume picking his side without even hearing other people out, like her immediate dislike of Robyn when the two meet.
Nora and Jaune, first of all, aren't members of Team RWBY. They're supporting characters, no matter how many jokes we've made about Jaune being the protagonist. Second, they do criticize Ironwood, but Jaune immediately drops the issue, conveniently right as he's given his Huntsman license. I'll give you Nora, though. As for Yang and Blake going behind Ironwood's back, as said above, it's a hypocritical move on it's own, since they're bothered by Ironwood being shady and Ruby not trusting him... and immediately act shady and untrustworthy themselves.
First off, any benefit is a benefit, however small. Second, the "only" benefit is becoming official licensed Huntsmen? As in, being legally able to arrest people, do hired / mercenary work, becoming proper authorities in their world, and being able to openly carry weapons anywhere? While being teenagers who never finished their proper training? On top, of course, of having their weaponry upgraded as a favor. That sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. And all this while they're following orders from the guy abusing his power and oppressing a city to fulfill his own goal, who, with this move, guarantees himself seven mercenaries who happen to be his friends, which is pretty shady itself.
Yeah, they did. They stole military equipment, attempted to disable the only communications tower the city had (which would have caused a panic all on it's own), forced a response by the military (which was harsher than they could have foreseen, but the matter stands), and then caused further damage by destroying more military equipment, this one being key to the town's defensive capabilities. They caused crazy amounts of damage, and if Ruby didn't have the Silver Eyes, they would have been responsible for untold amounts of destruction before the Leviathan could be stopped.
Ruby apologizes because the fight escalated. She shows no signs of being sorry for stealing military property, and never intends to return it.
Edited by TheLovecraftian on Jan 23rd 2020 at 1:32:53 PM
.....They weren't trying to disable communications, just the radar.
Terra explicitly says so.
Terra: "Okay, remember: one, the radar box is separate from the rest of the communications equipment. So if you disconnect it properly, it won't take out comms for the rest of the city. Two, this conversation never happened."
I mean, if you're going to infiltrate a communications tower to disable a part of it, you're pretty much accepting that stuff might go down much worse than that. Or do you think they went into that mission imagining that everything would turn out just peachy by sending one girl into the communication tower filled with military personnel?
...actually, that's entirely possible, and it makes it much worse that they'd be so shortsighted and naive, since if Adam hadn't interfered by luck, things could have ended up even worse for Argus.

Please, if it doesn't manage to, can we even call ourselves a fanbase?