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Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#1901: Jan 22nd 2020 at 4:19:00 PM

Before the fall of Breacon there was too much risk of her being discovered. Even if the average person brushes off talk of a pale woman with red eyes who travels with Grimm, Ozpin and his allies wouldn't. And if something goes wrong and she gets exposed it helps unite the kingdoms against her. If she wants to communicate with her agents she has to drag a seer with her everywhere which is another thing she'd need to keep under wraps.

After the fall it would be easier for her to pass unnoticed, but by the same token she has minions who are capable of this sort of thing and can enter civilised society without issue if required. Plus you then run into the issue of Salem having to do her mooks jobs for them just encourages them to rely on her like a crutch .

EDIT: From the bio on Tyrian we can assume she recruited him personally, so she does go out and do things herself. But for various reasons she's not suited for a lot of the jobs her minions do for her.

Edited by Shaoken on Jan 22nd 2020 at 11:24:23 PM

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#1902: Jan 22nd 2020 at 4:32:34 PM

I'm still fairly certain she has a fifth Lieutenant we haven't seen. Those Seers as we've seen are basically communication devices, and she was clearly talking to someone with it when teaching Cinder how to control her new arm, instructing them to "reinforce our numbers at Beacon". She has an agent there likely, either a spy amidst the teachers, or someone sent there after Beacon fell.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#1903: Jan 22nd 2020 at 4:43:00 PM

In the past, I would have bet on Winter being that fifth agent. She had potential as an interesting villain, especially with her relationship to Weiss. But, I guess that ship's sailed.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1904: Jan 22nd 2020 at 5:00:51 PM

Volume 7, Episode 11 review

A bit late, but that's life.

    General 
  • Subtitles are back! And so are musical openings! Today... we open with '(dramatic music)'.
  • God, I love the appearance of that gun.
  • Hello. Ironwood's second gun fires gravity.
  • Interesting that Watts starts with 'nineteen'. Does he have to count his bullets, or is he 'summoning' (voice activating) the bullet he wants to use?
  • Looks like Watts will struggle with Ironwood's raw power.
  • He just called eighteen and the subtitles have stopped working. So much for that: he's just counting down the bullets he's using.
  • And we all knew Watts would be changing the gravity direction on Ironwood. Now we know what the colours are: white means gravity inwards (as in you can stand on the block like it's normal gravity) while purple means gravity outwards (hence Ironwood floating away from the block when it changes).
  • Nice use of the water geyser from the only half-raised water biome.
  • Subtitles are back and now we're into the faux-goth-rock part of the fight.
  • Heh. Suck that, Watts. Ironwood saw that gravity change coming.
  • He's behind you, Watts.
  • Hello, those Aura-break special effects are new. We can actually see shattering shards now. I hope they keep that effect up.
  • Huh. Watts is pretty tough to be taking all that even after his Aura has shattered.
  • Ouch. Feel that burn, Ironwood. Try not to lose your only biological arm, will you?
  • Ah, so that's why Watts was counting bullets; it was a premeditated distraction ploy - Ironwood drops his guard slightly when he tells Watts he knows Watts has run out of bullets, which allows Watts to hit him with the hard-light snare. Just barely — but Watts does admit that it was a close call.
  • Jesus, Ironwood's pretty much burned all the skin off his arm to get free. That's a bad sign for both his state of mind and what he's willing to sacrifice to get the job done.
  • Rather chilling words from Watts at the end there. It's exactly the threat Oscar warned Ironwood about in the Vault of the Winter Maiden: if you sacrifice your humanity to defeat the enemy, you've lost the real battle. It looks like Watts' real purpose was to achieve a proxy victory over Ironwood instead of a direct one: bring out the very worst in Ironwood. If Ironwood sacrifices who he is to defeat Salem, then he will have destroyed himself and probably empowered Salem in the process. That's a win for Watts — he gets his revenge on Ironwood by enabling Ironwood to destroy himself. He's pulling a He Who Fights Monsters gambit on Ironwood.
  • It therefore sounds like a warning of things to come in Volume 8: if Ironwood is willing to sacrifice anything to stop Salem, the heroes are in trouble. Ironwood's own soul is in trouble. He's becoming what people believed Ozpin to be but which he's never truly demonstrated (people act like Ozpin sacrifices everything and everyone, but he actually seems to be trying to minimise the sacrifices — Ironwood's admitting here that he's willing to maximise the sacrifices if it means achieving his goal).
  • Anyway, that Watts/Ironwood fight was very Reichenbach Falls.
  • Here comes Tyrian!
  • That's a bit mad from Qrow. Admittedly, the guy did almost die the last time he fought Tyrian. I think this is the first time we've seen Qrow go into a fight so... unfettered.
  • Nice to see that Clover's taking responsibility for dealing with Tyrian's tail. His weapon is ideal for that.
  • Okay, catching bolts with your teeth is just showing off.
  • Which backfires... also, bad pun is bad.
  • And more pretty Aura breaking effects. Very Senbonzakura. I really hope we stay with this shattering effect from now on, I do like it.
  • Well, the Tyrian fight is shorter than Watts', but I don't mind given that it was three-on-one. Tyrian did really well against the odds for a while there but three-on-one is going to be too much for him because he was evenly matched just against Qrow in V4.
  • I may have to watch the fight again later because I didn't see any obvious signs of Qrow's Semblance interfering. That doesn't mean there's not something there, it just means the fights are much faster these days, so I have similar difficulties now to the days of Monty, where the fights were too ridiculously fast to appreciate what's actually going on in them in.
  • Ironwood has Watts' bag. I guess we're going to learn what's in it now.
  • He's bandaged and has a sling, so there's been a time-skip since the Watts fight. I wonder if he killed Watts or imprisoned him. The fight was so Reichenbach Falls, it could go either way.
  • Wow, the Watts fight really took a lot out of him.
  • Well, that's an expression of pure shock, which means he's about to get hit by that 'no more surprises' breaking point that he warned Oscar about. Neo? Or Cinder? Probably Cinder, given that Neo is supposed to be finding Oscar.
  • Hello, what's with all that red lighting at the entrance to the Academy... is that war footing the Mantle evacuation has them on? It's probably their 'alarm' setting.
  • Okay, so it's not Cinder, since she's watching Winter. And, if he can send Winter a comm message, then I'm not sure what's in his office.
  • Ah, of course. She's watching Winter, just like she was watching Pyrrha back in Beacon. That's how she found the Fall Maiden — Winter's going to go straight for the Winter Maiden and Cinder will follow her.
  • I wonder how many people know what happened in Beacon's vault? Jaune's the only witness they had for a long time and, even after they reunited with Ozpin, Ozpin is unlikely to have discussed it with anyone, especially since there are signs that there's something suspicious about his death and reincarnation this time around.
  • So, odd orders from Ironwood. I'd like to speculate that Neo's masquerading as Ironwood but that wouldn't fit what we know. It's more likely Ironwood's hit the breaking point we were warned about in his conversation with Oscar.
  • That's the second time Ace Ops have said something to the effect of just following orders. We saw how well that went in the first episode.
  • Well, if JNR is going after Oscar, that means Oscar's going to be in a bad situation when they find him.
  • Look how prominently displayed Watts' bag is on that desk. I don't trust the bag!
  • Oh, yeah. Ironwood's breaking down all right. He's second-guessing absolutely everything and seeing shadows everywhere. Leaving a black queen in Ironwood's office is a fantastic bit of psychological warfare from Cinder. By watching Winter's response, she knows — without having to witness it directly — just how badly affected by the chess piece Ironwood is. And we're seeing the results for ourselves right now.
  • I just noticed that Ironwood never retrieved his second gun. That or he really doesn't carry it around unless he absolutely has to.
  • And Ironwood goes into full meltdown. Nice bit of facial animation for the kids, they look frightened by Ironwood's break down. Now they've seen the truth about Salem cow one headmaster into submission to the enemy and drive another headmaster almost mad with doubt and paranoia. And neither headmaster had to live with the truth for as long as Ozma has. I still hope these kids will gradually begin realising exactly what weight Ozma has been shouldering — and how sharing that burden actually doesn't take the weight of that knowledge off the leader's shoulders. So far, they're still functioning under the belief that sharing knowledge automatically mitigates the disadvantages of keeping secrets, but Ironwood is proving that's a naive position to take; it doesn't automatically solve the downside of keeping secrets — the same mistakes can still be made, and telling the truth can sometimes even make things worse.
  • Good for Ruby for recognising who put the chess piece there.
  • I guess the kids really did think Cinder was dead. Rather daft of them given that Yang was the only witness down there and she witnessed nothing beyond the fact that Vernal was dead and her mother was about to step inside the Vault. No sign of Cinder's body and no clue as to what had happened down there. Why assume Cinder's dead?
  • What the hell, Yang? Why are you turning on Ironwood in such an accusatory way? Why are you acting like Cinder being here is Ironwood's fault?
  • Does Ironwood know Hazel, or does he just know the name from what the heroes told him about Haven? He uses Hazel's name in quite a familiar way.
  • Blake says 'we're with you', but Team RWBY actually has a bad track record for being genuine with that kind of sentiment — they have a habit of either saying it when they've gone off and done their own thing, or saying it to get what they want from the adult they're saying it to and then promptly behaving in a way that is completely counter to their promise. They did it to Ozpin (only to prove Ozpin right when they behaved as he predicted), they're doing it now to Ironwood (they've already gone behind his back and kept secrets until their personal terms were met — which makes a mockery of Blake's comment here).
  • Watts' bag has been prominently displayed throughout this entire scene. I'm getting more suspicious of it by the moment.
  • Oh, good. Ironwood's actually addressing the Amity leak.
  • Well, at least Yang owned up immediately — but she only did it when it became blatantly obvious that Team RWBY had to have been the leak. And we're back to Team RWBY's bad track record with the 'we're with you' sentiment — because they're only really 'with' an adult if the adult behaves according to Team RWBY's terms. If the adult doesn't behave according to Team RWBY's wishes, Team RWBY turns on them faster than you can say 'this is what I dislike about the vast majority of teens-as-heroes stories'. Harry Potter had this problem, too. But, then, most teens-as-heroes stories do.
  • Okay, there's something starting to move inside Watts' bag. There's rising negativity in the room. So... high-frequency technology exacerbating the negativity in the room, or simply something that responds to the rising negativity in the room? If the former, that would be cool, but I can't see what the purpose would be. If the latter, it would be something Grimm that'll probably burst out of the bag Alien-style at whomever is speaking. Not sure of the purpose for a Grimm in the bag either, however.
  • No surprise that Ace Ops will turn on Team RWBY. They're loyal to Ironwood. Team RWBY, meanwhile, aren't from Atlas Academy and, from the start, have been trying to tell the locals to do things their way.
  • Hey, people, there's something going on with Watts' bag!
  • Loyalty always matters, Ironwood? After the way you behaved in Vale? At least what Yang and Blake did wasn't half so divisive as what you did in Vale to Ozpin. But, anyway, I basically called this — the way he gave them their Huntsmen licences, he was basically telling them that he was buying their loyalty.
  • Okay, I was expecting something, but I wasn't expecting a Seer Grimm. Which occurs to me is odd because Watts did express fascination with Seers in V5.
  • And Salem speaks. Okay, if Watts was carrying around a Seer in his bag just so Salem could speak to Ironwood if Watts lost then it must mean that Watts knew he would lose to Ironwood. Otherwise... why bother?
  • Ironwood looks so freaked out by the Seer... and that is a bit freaky, in fairness.
  • Wow, this is exactly what Emerald's illusion was based on. Salem's manifestation is actually telling us something about Emerald and she's not even in the volume. That's actually pretty cool.
  • Okay, Salem was definitely expecting Watts to lose. Or, at least there was a contingency plan in place should that happen.
  • Well done, Ruby, for freely offering intel to Salem. Nice going, girl. We know that Salem probably knows Cinder's in town and we know Team RWBY has no reason to suspect a falling out between Salem and Cinder, but she does have a habit of just blurting information out to whomever she's confronting — Clover had to stop her from doing that the first time they confronted Robyn.
  • Okay, so Tyrian and Watts really did have 'be captured' as part of the plan. That doesn't mean that their plan has unfolded completely as they'd have liked, but this plan — the 'their capture was part of my plan' routine from a manifestation of the Big Bad via a planted Seer — shows that Salem does view Ironwood as a weakness she can exploit. Cinder's knowledge of Ironwood's fear tendencies and behaviours indicates Ironwood's personality was a strategy for Salem's forces — he was targeted in Vale and is being personally targeted right now in his office. It therefore doesn't matter that Cinder's been separated from the villains for a while because she already knew at least part of the Atlas plan, she just didn't know the timing of it had been changed.
  • Well, Salem's not wrong. She's immortal, she can choose whatever timescale she wants for her plans.
  • Look at Salem pulling the 'benevolent evil' routine. Of course, we're not going to trust that. But she does play that 'I'm such a reasonable person that you've got to be completely unreasonable to oppose me' type of evil so well. And her serene expression as she threatens Ironwood is really good.
  • No, Ruby. You really haven't seen what Salem is capable of.
  • No, Ruby. Jinn didn't show you everything.
  • Still, very visible sign that Ruby chinked Salem's armour with the 'lamp told us everything' idea. That stung her, if only briefly.
  • Heh. The robotic style of her turning her body and head is pretty neat.
  • Oh, look. Ruby just gives the Ozpin position (thwart her plans even if we can't kill her) with a complete lack of awareness or irony that she's going full Ozpin right in front of everyone.
  • And Salem confirms she had something to do with Summer's fate. Also, she effectively confirms that Summer did indeed know that Salem could not be destroyed and tried to do something to stop her anyway. My theory that there's a link between Summer and Raven is getting stronger. Also, my theory that this event is linked to the timing of the Narration in the pilot episode and last episode of V3 just got boosted, too.
  • Salem looks to me like she's messing with Ruby's head in some way. The way the Summer flashback is happening. It almost seems like Salem is deliberately triggering slightly twisted flashbacks. After all, that image of Summer Ruby recalled was a smiling, happy one. But this Summer is frowning and sad and the lighting is dull and moody.
  • Hooray for a bit of sisterly interaction. I'm glad it's Yang who rushed to Ruby's side.
  • And Salem just watches, like the bored curiosity of someone teasing a mouse in a maze with some cheese it has to find.
  • And there it is: the chaos Watts and Tyrian was causing (which, while suiting Salem's plans anyway) were a distraction from the destruction of the long-range sensors. Now they have no idea how far away Salem is or what kind of force she's bringing with her. They don't even know if she's tricking them into thinking there's an invasion coming when there's not.
  • Why does Blake need to ask if Ironwood was being truthful about Amity being completed? They should have known that it's not completed and that Ironwood was bluffing to get Watts and Tyrian out into the open.
  • I'm sorry, Yang, but exactly why are you getting pissed off about Ironwood using a tactic to lure out the villain? Again, Yang's habit of being judgemental and lashing out angrily at any adult who doesn't meet with her personal approval is entirely consistent, but she really does need some character development to address this.
  • Well, the fandom was wondering if Ironwood would order Winter to take Fria's power instead of waiting for her to die, and he's done it. There are Aura transfer machines in Fria's room, so that's probably how it will done. Again, this is a repeat of the Vale Arc, and the attempt to transfer Maiden power from Amber to Pyrrha. And now we have the earlier part of the episode confirmed: Cinder was hoping that her little psycological ploy would send someone to the Winter Maiden whom she could follow. She was right.
  • Worth noting that, in the Vale Arc, it was implied that the Aura transfer was Ironwood's idea, given that it was made clear that the research and technology was Atlesian. I'm therefore suspicious that it may have been Ironwood's suggestion all along, which Ozpin, Glynda and Qrow all agreed to. If so, Ironwood's not copying Ozpin so much as trying to make the same plan succeed on its second attempt.
  • Oh, God. Has Ironwood locked Oscar away? He's already sent Winter to take Fria's power, so does that mean he already sent his men to confine Oscar and the lamp while Teams RWBY and JNR were en route back to the Academy?
  • Seriously, Ruby? You're pulling the 'but you said we could keep it' routine with a man who's now in full-blown paranoia mode and after he's learned you've been lying, keeping secrets and leaking information? That's rather self-entitled of you.
  • Oh, never mind. Should have waited. Ironwood calls Team RWBY out on their self-entitled attitudes. It's about time someone in-universe did that. Give it a bit more time, and the kids will suddenly be wishing they hadn't gone so holier-than-thou on Ozpin. He may have kept secrets, but he was also willing to indulge them whenever they wanted to pull their 'we know better than the people who have the actual experience' shenanigans. They haven't received that grace from anyone else — and everyone in a position of authority who knew the truth about Salem has so far handled the knowledge worse than Ozpin did.
  • The timeline has changed? Those were Cinder's words.
  • So, it wasn't Ozpin who suggested floating the city, it was a former host. My guess is that it was the King of Vale. Otherwise, there was a host between the King of Vale and Ozpin, and I'm not sure there's been enough time for that.
  • Okay, Ironwood, are you sure you understand what Ozma's plan really was? Because, if Oz didn't take something far enough, it's probably because he realised there was a significant problem with the idea and that the idea should never be carried out. It's not that Oz's plan was 'incomplete', it's that it either couldn't or shouldn't be done.
  • Anyway, my theory is confirmed: I suspected that we were going to see Atlas lifted as high as possible first before its fall from the sky occurs — because the further there is to fall, the more dramatic the situation.
  • And here we are. Watts is getting exactly what he wanted (his indirect, proxy victory) while Oscar's advice is tossed away like so much rubbish (don't give up your humanity).
  • Okay, Team RWBY, here's the problem with Ruby's suggestion and the entire concept of standing their ground. Here are just some of the questions you haven't bothered asking in your self-entitled quest to be the only people allowed to have an acceptable idea:
    • Why does restoring global communication automatically, magically, unite the world in the same thought and deed that will benefit the threat Atlas is facing from the approaching Salem?
    • Does Atlas have time to complete Amity Tower before Salem arrives?
    • Does Atlas have time to then update the other Kingdoms on what's happening in Atlas before Salem arrives?
    • Does Atlas then have time to wait for other Kingdoms to a) agree to send help and b) wait for that help to actually, physically, arrive either before Salem arrives or before she's defeated Atlas if she arrives first?
    • How long does Atlas have to hold out before help arrives?
    • What if no other Kingdoms can help? Vale's struggling with the fallen Beacon. Mistral was left bereft of Huntsmen and a properly school. Both may not be in a position to help. That leaves Vacuo, which is the furthest kingdom away from Atlas.
    • What if no other Kingdoms want to help? Because of things like... oh, the global Dust embargo and shutting borders to the rest of the world.
    • Ironwood said the troops are already exhausted. How much time have they got to recover before Salem strikes? How much recovery time will they lose if they continue evacuating Mantle in the run up to Salem's arrival?
    • How much does Atlas have by way of supplies? How long can they be self-sustaining when so high in the sky?
    • Are they absolutely sure the Staff is limitless and do they have Gravity Dust as a back-up for Atlas should the worst happen?
    • Will there be a contingency plan should the Grimm be capable of flying as high as Atlas?
    • Remember, kids. Ren is so far the only protagonist to have pointed out that the heroes have no plan and aren't even trying to come up with one — they're just flying by the seat of their pants and hoping it magically works itself out somehow while criticising everyone else's plans and actions. Remember, kids. Ren is worth listening to.
  • I love how Ruby thinks that Team RWBY telling Ironwood the four of them are in agreement with Atlas standing its ground somehow trumps Ironwood's authority.
  • And I especially love how Ruby actually expects Ace Ops to side with her against Ironwood when all the evidence to date should have told her that Ace Ops will side with Ironwood against Team RWBY.
  • Yang, didn't Jaune's first mission as a school escort teach you that being a Huntsman isn't always about fighting? Didn't you all have an epiphany in Mountain Glenn that it's not about the fight, it's about protecting the people? Because your 'don't back down from a fight' attitude doesn't give me any sense that you want to protect as many lives as possible here. It just tells me you're reverting back to 'love fighting' Yang. (Note: that doesn't mean I'm siding with Ironwood. It means I'm addressing the flaws in Yang's position right now.)
  • I'm not sure what Vine's message is supposed to be there. If he was pointing out they'd be facing multiple fronts (protect Mantle for the evacuation, protect the evacuation transports, and protect Atlas itself — also, protect Amity while it's being finished), and having multiple fronts in a war makes things more difficult to win or survive, I'd get it. But he says 'you can't focus on one single fight while trying to win a war', which suggests he wants multiple fronts — but, if Atlas ascends into the heavens, there will only be a single fight (Atlas) because Mantle has been sacrificed. He's criticising Yang (focus on Mantle) for something that Ironwood is also doing (focus on Atlas), and that's not a good argument.
  • Well, we all knew Martial Law was coming.
  • The problem is, Ruby, that if you're in a situation where you can't save everyone, you have to decide who you're going to save. The problem here is that Team RWBY doesn't think they're in that situation while Ironwood and Ace Ops think they are. And that's the crux of the problem. It's a good problem for the show to have because we don't know who is right at the moment because we have no idea where Salem is or what level of force she's bringing with her, or even if she's bluffing and not coming at all. The thing is, none of these characters know that either — so Ironwood and Ace Ops have gone glass-half-empty and Team RWBY has gone glass-half-full.
  • Okay, you guys need to find Oscar because he's on the verge of arresting you. I said it at the beginning of the volume when he said 'At least we have you, Oscar' — that sounded more like Oscar was his prisoner than his ally. If he doesn't imprison Team RWBY here, he's going to do it to Oscar.
  • And that's officially Oscar and the Relic in trouble.
  • I'm surprised Ruby managed to get that much out before Ironwood blocked the transmission.
  • So, Penny was sent to accompany Winter to Fria.
  • Yeah, Tyrian's not staying imprisoned. He's going to escape. Probably when (if) Robyn and Qrow turn against Clover. With Tyrian sitting beside Clover, stabbing Clover becomes a possibility (if he can get his tail free).
  • And it's Team RWBY versus Ace Ops — without any Luck Semblance interfering, and four on four.
  • And Oscar is missing. The question is — was it Ironwood he had to escape from or Neo? ... Or both?

    Scenery 
  • Nice solid opening for graphics, with the gravity biome framed by lava bursts and the aurora in the background through a narrow window at the top.
  • Any symbolism in the fact that Watts, with so many yellow themes, starts off framed on the Vacuo side with its orange flags in the background?
  • It looks like Ironwood's second gun is a negative reverse of the first gun. Same design, same pattern, it's just black and grey rather than white and pale grey. It's also got two triggers.
  • The entire battle has a lot of shades of Reichenbach Falls, the final battle between Holmes and Moriarty. The gravity biomes act as the cliff edge and the half-exposed lava and water biomes act as the falls and rocks below the cliff.
  • The lighting of Ironwood's office, and the way Salem's appearance is animated is very nicely done.

    Likes 
  • I really do like the appearance of Watts' gun.
  • I like the special effects of the gravity ammo from Ironwood's gun when he fires it to get close to Watts.
  • I love the way Watts is using technology in battle. These hard light shields being used as stepping stones across thin air is really fun to watch.
  • The Aura special effects for shattering are very cool and very clear. I do hope they keep this up for future volumes. It's now easy to see the difference between the Aura being under stress and the Aura actually breaking.
  • It's quite neat to see Qrow's perspective of the fight with Tyrian, with the fishing rod coming into view to drag back Tyrian's left weapon, followed immediately by a crossbow bolt.
  • The way they used the chess piece to snap Ironwood's mind and send him over the edge he was visibly teetering on when Oscar told him about Jinn's information. It was so clear in the Oscar conversation that Ironwood had reached the limit of what he could cope with and that anything else would send him over the edge. And that use of the chess piece is fantastic decision for the writers to make. They, and the animators, have portrayed Ironwood's mental breakdown in response to finding that chess piece really well. The way he behaves: the paranoia, the obsessive second-guessing, the doubt — it all brings back the conversation from when he disqualified Team RWBY, where he implied that his extensive injuries were caused by a situation where he saw something on the battlefield that was an 'hallucination' and, as a result, things went terribly wrong. It brings back the way the chess piece haunted the Vale Arc. It makes good use of the chess piece flashback Ironwood had in the Vault of the Winter Maiden. It all explains why he has trust and paranoia issues, why we've seen signs that he's struggling with PTSD ever since Beacon fell, and why he's finally snapped now.
  • The fact that Salem's appearance mimics Emerald's illusion from the battle of Haven including her larger-than-life size, which is a really nice piece of set-up because it shows us why Emerald feels that's such a terrifying illusion to throw at her enemies.
  • The creepy, eerie music as Salem mentions Summer is really good.

    Dislikes 
  • I didn't like how Yang's response implied Team RWBY thought Cinder was dead. Yang had no idea what had happened to Cinder — she came down after the fight was over: Vernal was dead, Cinder vanished, and her mother was about to enter the chamber. Yang, and therefore Team RWBY, actually had no reason whatsoever to think Cinder was dead. Missing? Yes. Dead? No.
  • Yang's accusatory 'And she's here?!' yell and associated glaring comes across as her blaming Ironwood for Cinder popping up in Atlas. It's a stupid reaction, but is entirely consistent with Yang's portrayal ever since her meeting with Raven in V5. So, when I say 'stupid', I mean this is one of Yang's big character flaws still active and in full force — quick to judge others, cast blame and start shouting at people, and usually getting what to be angry about or who to be angry with completely wrong. She needs character development to address this, which I hope will eventually happen.
  • Not a huge fan of the Protagonist-Centered Morality we've got going on with Team RWBY. It is consistent characterisation for them, but they're coming across as very self-entitled in this volume — it's a very 'my way or the highway' attitude they've been taking, especially given the fact they're kids and keep running roughshod over people who probably have more experience and training than they do. Like I said, it's consistent characterisation for them and it's common for teenage hero stories (sadly). I do hope they get character development to move away from this, and it's encouraging that they've been called out for part of it in-universe. It's possible for the teenage heroes to win the day without being obnoxious about it.

    Predictions 
  • I'm not yet certain that Watts is dead because the entire fight seemed inspired by The Final Problem. Although Watts has come back from the dead in terms of his back story, the key to the parallel is for the character to come back from the dead for the audience/reader, not just the characters. In terms of the Reichenbach Falls fight, the reason it unfolded the way it did was because Moriarty was able to keep tracking Watson, no matter what precautions Holmes got Watson to take. Once at the Falls, Watson was caught up by someone from the town telling him that a patient needed to see an English doctor, so he abandoned Holmes to return to the town. There, he discovered that the message was a hoax to separate him from Holmes so that Holmes was alone when Moriarty attacked. When Watson returns to the Falls, all he finds are signs of a struggle that suggests no survivors and a letter from Holmes which claims that Moriarty permitted him to write that final message to Watson.
  • There's a bit of Watson-Inception going on in this fight: the fight effectively becomes Holmes versus an Evil Watson who is playing Moriarty's role at the Falls, while Salem plays the real Moriarty figure, in a 'what if Moriarty didn't show up and sent a loyal stooge instead' scenario. Meanwhile, Ironwood takes a role that's a mixture of Holmes and the real Watson in a 'what if Holmes had been as fooled as Watson was' scenario. Either way, the message from Moriarty gets delivered to the duped Watson — in this case, a Seer Grimm carrying a message from Salem. In other words, Watts has taken both the Watson and the Moriarty role in terms of the fight while the real Moriarty is, in effect, Salem. Watts has delivered the final message to Ironwood in the form of the Seer.
  • My theory that there's a link between Summer, Raven and Salem in terms of Raven's knowledge and bitterness felt like it gained some wings in this episode. My theory is also linked to what Ozpin may have known, as I think Raven would have used a teleport between herself and Ozpin and between herself and Summer, but still Ozpin arrived too late to save Summer, but in time to have the conversation we hear in the pilot episode and see concluded at the end of V3. My theory is that, while Ozpin didn't know Summer was going off to confront Salem, he does know what happened to her. My theory also includes the possibility that Yang misinterpreted why Taiyang shut down after Summer's death — that Ozpin actually told Tai what happened and it's Qrow who was left in the dark, possibly on Taiyang's request. I do think Tai may know much more than anyone thinks — certainly much more than Raven thinks, but that his reaction has been very different. Three members of Team STRQ have been shown to have special abilities, I'm sure Tai will have something to reveal, too. Anyway, I've mentioned this theory multiple times before, I just feel like this episode has lent it wings.
  • The way Ruby is breaking down, it's like her silver eyes are short-circuiting. I wonder if Salem knows how to push a SEW into a state of mind whereby they effectively lock up their silver-eye power and cannot access it. I won't be surprised to find that Ruby suddenly learns at a terrible moment that she can't access her power — as if it's gone. They'll think that Salem 'stole' the power, but it'll later turn out to have locked up inside Ruby's soul by Ruby herself during this mind-twist of Summer's memory that Salem just did. After all, it was ultimately the memory of her mother that made her consciously activate the silver eyes against the Leviathan, so that seems to be her trigger for access the power right now. If Salem has mind-twisted that memory, she might have twisted the link. Ruby will either have to mend that link or find a new path to her power.
  • Worth pointing out that even if Salem is bluffing them about being on her way to attack, she's succeeded at dividing the heroes. Ironwood's ultimate fear appears to be ending up like Lionheart, so he's doing the exact opposite: instead of cowering in fear, he's lashing out in fear. Instead of terror driving him to submit to Salem, it's causing him to defy her blindly. This appears to have been Watts' goal: tip Ironwood over the edge so that he throws away everything he's ever worked for to achieve something he (deep down) is terrified is unachievable. In the process, he alienates almost everyone he could have called a friend and ally, splitting the strength and power of the heroes, and exhausting them even before Salem herself has listed a finger.
  • I think we're going to learn why Ozma never wanted to complete the theoretical plan that Atlas might be able to fly as high as it wants with the Staff powering it, but it might not be in V7. Ironwood's acting like Ozma was somehow cowardly to not go through with it, but he's also acting like he doesn't really know why Ozma didn't want to go through with it, which is why he describes as Ozma's plan as 'incomplete'. Meanwhile, Ozma's plan is much more like to have been complete because it wasn't the plan Ironwood's telling himself it was. Oscar mentioned something about Atlas being the symbol of the standards all humanity should aspire to reach — a city that's a dot in the sky because it's so distant it may-as-well be a 'satellite' is not going to be a source of inspiration, it'll be viewed as isolationist and having abandoned everyone else — it won't just have abandoned Mantle, it'll have abandoned the whole world. Atlas's current position is, in a sense, within 'touching' distance; it feels reachable and achievable. Or, at least, it should feel that way (we know a lot of people in-universe don't feel it's that way). But here's the catch: this Ozma speaking about humanity. Meanwhile, Ironwood is currently stripping himself of humanity because he feels the only way to defeat Salem is to become a worse monster than he feels she is. That leaves Ironwood in no mental state right now to understand what Ozma's perspective for a flying Altas really was.
    • P.S., I'm still suspicious that the Staff of Creation is genuinely 'limitless' power. I suspect it works for a set period of time and then has to reset (like the Relic of Knowledge resets every eighty years). I'm expecting taking Atlas high into the atmosphere might burn through that allotted time faster, or simply that the time limit is almost up on the Staff and that Ozma intended for Atlas to 'dock' every few decades ('for routine maintenance', of course) to reset the Staff and then restore the float for another set period of time.
  • There was time between Ironwood spotting the black queen, recalling Ace Ops and the kids, and Ace Ops and Team RWBY actually arriving at his office. We know he'd issued orders to Winter in that time to go and take the power from the Winter Maiden because we also see Penny receiving her orders to return to Winter. That means there was time for Ironwood to 'collect' Oscar and the Relic of Knowledge, given that it's pretty clear that he'd already made up his mind about trusting or arresting Team RWBY even before they entered his office. Cinder showed no signs of being with Neo, which means Neo also would have gone after Oscar. My guess is that Neo and Ironwood's troops converged on Oscar at more-or-less the same time and turned on each other. Oscar was able to give both the slip while Neo made short work of Ironwood's troops. Now Neo is hunting Oscar.
  • The set up seems to be for Team RWBY to take on Ace Ops and then go after the Winter Maiden issue (so Cinder, Winter, Penny and Fria) while Team JNR deal with the Oscar and Relic of Knowledge issue (so Oscar and Neo). Meanwhile, Ironwood will be trying to bring down both teams and there will be a third wing which is the issue between Qrow, Clover, Robyn and Tyrian. I expect Tyrian to be able to escape, but the positions of everyone does flag a potential scorpion strike on Clover — especially given his lucky Semblance.
  • Random thought. I realised, as I watched the opening credits, that the layout of Team JNPR at the beginning is ALPN (Alpine, a shade of green). Juniper was also a shade of green. I'd been wondering about that for a while because I couldn't get past ARON (Arran, which is a pale yellow-beige colour that lies somewhere between ivory and oatmeal).

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1905: Jan 22nd 2020 at 5:17:18 PM

Salem looks to me like she's messing with Ruby's head in some way. The way the Summer flashback is happening. It almost seems like Salem is deliberately triggering slightly twisted flashbacks. After all, that image of Summer Ruby recalled was a smiling, happy one. But this Summer is frowning and sad and the lighting is dull and moody.

My own interpretation of this is that Salem just is that good at picking up on people's insecurities. Ruby incidentally seemed to have touched on one of her's. It’s similar to how she uses Tyrian insecurities to punish him for failing her instead of (physical) abuse or threats, and I think is indicative of her Long Term Intentions for Ruby.

And Salem confirms she had something to do with Summer's fate. Also, she effectively confirms that Summer did indeed know that Salem could not be destroyed and tried to do something to stop her anyway. My theory that there's a link between Summer and Raven is getting stronger. Also, my theory that this event is linked to the timing of the Narration in the pilot episode and last episode of V3 just got boosted, too.

Is that the theory that the narration in the pilot episode/V3 and the "smaller, more honest soul" they're talking about was actually Summer? I had that theory way back when we first learned Salem wanted Ruby alive, and I'm only more convinced now that I'm on to something after the discrepancy between how Salem dealt with Maria (Assassins) and how she tried to deal with Ruby (bring her to me alive and unharmed).


Notice how Salem stops short of saying "Your mother said that to me. Right before I killed you." I have no doubt her intention was originally to just kill Summer like all the previous SEWs when she and Raven came to confront her, but I suspect something ended up happening that made Salem decide the next time a SEW came along she would be keeping them alive.


As far as Summer's fate goes, my guess is still that she ended up being tossed into the pools of annihilation, came out corrupted, and committed suicide, much to Salem's disappointment.

Meanwhile, Ironwood is currently stripping himself of humanity because he feels the only way to defeat Salem is to become a worse monster than he feels she is. That leaves Ironwood in no mental state right now to understand what Ozma's perspective for a flying Altas really was.

I'm really hoping he achieves at least short term success; when the Knight Templar can give And It Worked as a Shut Up, Kirk!, it presents an excellent challenge to the heroes worldview.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 22nd 2020 at 8:42:37 AM

SomeNewGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#1906: Jan 22nd 2020 at 5:25:58 PM

I'm just hoping all the buildup of Marrow being the most humanized and sympathetic of the Ace Ops, as well as being the only one whose shown a willingness to question the team's blind loyalty to authority, bears fruit.

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#1907: Jan 22nd 2020 at 5:26:40 PM

Not a huge fan of the Protagonist-Centered Morality we've got going on with Team RWBY. It is consistent characterisation for them, but they're coming across as very self-entitled in this volume — it's a very 'my way or the highway' attitude they've been taking, especially given the fact they're kids and keep running roughshod over people who probably have more experience and training than they do. Like I said, it's consistent characterisation for them and it's common for teenage hero stories (sadly). I do hope they get character development to move away from this, and it's encouraging that they've been called out for part of it in-universe. It's possible for the teenage heroes to win the day without being obnoxious about it.

Yeah, I hate it too. Like, it's been present since either V5 or V6, but it's really forming a pimply head with this.

Especially since they called out Ironwood for lying about the tower when he did it to lure out one of Salem's agents. So, what? Lying to someone because you don't trust them is fine, but lying to take out a villain is not?

And that's not to mention how Ruby and her friends are upset about Ironwood leaving Mantle, but last I checked, they didn't stick around Argus to make sure the Grimm were taken care of and just assumed the one armed mech they busted can handle them just fine.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#1908: Jan 22nd 2020 at 5:37:12 PM

I really don't see how RWBY is reacting with Protagonist-Centered Morality. The narrative isn't saying RWBY's morality is the right one, its just that they don't believe in sacrificing Mantle and engaging in The Needs of the Many. They are still kids really since they weren't probably trained and haven't experienced the horrors of the situation they're in, but they also aren't really acting like entitled brats either, since they just don't want to support a man who they think is abandoning innocents to die.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1909: Jan 22nd 2020 at 5:42:25 PM

Ironwood does that too, but he's a much better fighter, and comes up with some really interesting maneuvers (Ok, I legit thought this word was spelled Manouvre for some reason, and spent quite a few confused minutes understanding what it was actually spelled like. English is sometimes really weird) to show just how experienced he is.

In American English it's 'maneuver' and in British English it's 'manoeuvre'. You were probably thinking of the British English spelling, but you forgot the 'e' in the middle of the word.

Is that the theory that the narration in the pilot episode/V3 and the "smaller, more honest soul" they're talking about was actually Summer? I had that theory way back when we first learned Salem wanted Ruby alive, and I'm only more convinced now that I'm on to something after the discrepancy between how Salem dealt with Maria (Assassins) and how she tried to deal with Ruby (bring her to me alive and unharmed).

No. My theory (and I've had it for years) is that Ozpin and Salem are talking in the aftermath of Summer's death. Salem is predicting that Ozpin won't want to weaponise Ruby because of what happened to Summer but that she'll force him to do so anyway; she's telling him that, when he finally does, he can look forward to her ensuring Ruby suffers the same fate as her mother.

I interpret the '...know that you send her to same pitiful demise' as effectively being '...know that you send [Ruby] to the same pitiful demise [that befell Summer]'.

So, while I do expect Salem to want Ruby alive, I think she wants for a short-term reason, one designed to gut Ozma's faith, hope and optimism. After that, Ruby will serve no further purpose and can be disposed of.

Our theories are fairly similar and we've both had them for a long time. I think the main differences revolve around the extent to which Salem wants Ruby to live — even there, however, I don't think our theories are massively different, especially since we both think it's connected to something that happened with Summer.

I'm just hoping all the buildup of Marrow being the most humanized and sympathetic of the Ace Ops, as well as being the only one whose shown a willingness to question the team's blind loyalty to authority, bears fruit.

Yeah, I forgot to mention Marrow in my post, but I'm pretty much expecting him to be the key to RWBY overcoming Ace Ops (assuming they do, which I'm expecting for this show). As it stands, RWBY shouldn't be able to defeat Ace Ops, but the big factor is Marrow's Semblance.

Really, they should just have Marrow 'Stay' Team RWBY, cuff them and toss them in prison. Or, Marrow could just 'Stay' Ace Ops to allow RWBY to escape.

Marrow not using his Semblance until later may make sense if everyone's too muddled in the room for him to 'Stay' one side or another (at once) or if he's so conflicted, he's making up his mind what to do, and only uses his Semblance once he's decided. And he does look conflicted in this episode.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 22nd 2020 at 1:45:10 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1910: Jan 22nd 2020 at 5:48:01 PM

[up] Salem is talking about him sending his “smaller more honest soul” to the same pitiful fate as “his guardians” after they fail and presumably die, and he turns to said smaller soul.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1911: Jan 22nd 2020 at 5:52:47 PM

I know. But I still have a Summer interpretation inserted in there, which is why I didn't quote the whole thing.

The reason I slide around the 'guardians' comment is because the 'guardians' (and Ozpin looking for a 'guardian') has been a thing since the beginning of the show. However, the Maidens were created between Volumes 2 and 3. The creation of the Maidens seemed to replace the 'guardian' phrase in the episode where Ozpin and Qrow's discussion actually makes the switch (Qrow asks if Ozpin's found his guardian yet and Ozpin replies that Maidens choose themselves — and then we learn he's talking about Pyrrha).

So, it looks to me that the creation of the Maidens has changed what the guardians were originally going to be, and that may (or may not) affect the conversation between Ozpin and Salem. I'm therefore rather wary about references to 'guardians' as a result.

Aside: if I had to guess what the 'guardians' originally were going to be, it's that they were probably 'one guardian per Relic' and the reason the Maidens were apparently relatively easy to slot into the existing storyline is because they finally gave a nebulous 'guardian of the Relics' concept some actual structure in terms of abilities, flavour and how they'd work. Meanwhile, the SEW have been a thing since the very beginning, too, and therefore we don't know what the relationship between the SEW and original 'guardians' were going to be (if there was one at all).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 22nd 2020 at 2:04:04 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1912: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:03:21 PM

[up] I think “guardians” refer collectively to the Ozluminatti and the Maidens, and more generally the Hunters, during volume 2 Glynda mentioned RWBY and JNPR were the future guardians of the world. Anyway the reason I think it’s before summer died is because Salem talking as if he hasn’t already sent his smaller, more honest soul to try and defeat her.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 22nd 2020 at 9:17:39 AM

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1913: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:09:28 PM

Well, yes, the 'smaller, more honest, soul' is Ruby. I just think they're talking in the aftermath of Summer's fate.

You have to bear in mind that I also think we don't know everything about Raven yet either, which goes back to Summer's fate — so I do believe she factors in here and that there was a clue in the way Salem commented on the second eye being blinded when Tyrian claimed he had killed Qrow. In the Odin mythology, Odin deliberately sacrificed his eye to gain knowledge, but that sacrificed eye remains in the darkness to where it was consigned, still watching. And that very much describes Raven — she's a knowledge-themed character whom we know has continued to pass on intel about Salem to Ozpin despite her claims that she no longer has anything to do with him and his fight and in defiance of her own rules about never helping more than once.

We also don't know why she abandoned Yang.

Ignoring that, we certainly have something to learn about Tai.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 22nd 2020 at 2:12:15 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1914: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:14:37 PM

[up] Considering everything we know about Summer makes her out to be a carbon copy of Ruby, there's not really any criteria that Ruby meets for "smaller, more honest soul" that Summer doesn't, and the most obvious one (in fact the one that's clearly being talked about) is as a Silver Eyed Warrior.


I never really commented about whether Salem wants Ruby alive for the long term. Assuming she isn't actually her great-great-great-great-great-...-granddaughter (which admittedly doesn't seem impossible), I would imagine Salem views Ruby no different than her other followers prior to recruiting them; a person who can serve her interests in a unique enough way to be worth keeping alive, for a time at least. In Ruby's case I think the specific goal is "make her as broken and twisted as I am", and rub that in Ozpin's face; if successful there's not any particular reason to stop there, because it won't stop being painful for Oz, unless Ozpin actually does just give up at that point, in which case Salem has won and can destroy the world or do whatever it is she wants to do.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 23rd 2020 at 3:03:05 PM

SomeNewGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#1915: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:15:53 PM

...Uhhh, so Crunchyroll just released a promo of the series with Blake and Yang's letters being bloodily cut from the logo and I am very afraid all of a sudden.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1916: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:23:02 PM

[up] Link? They're not going to die. Not permanently at least.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1918: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:29:12 PM

[up] I strongly suspect this volume is headed towards a Downer Ending. Depending on whether they go straight into Salem's attack on Atlas, possibly an ending where Ruby goes to confront Salem, gets utterly trounced, and carried off by her flying monkeys, Cinder gets away with the relic of knowledge, and Ironwood is now a brutal military dictator with his own grand design for the relics.

wild mass guess Weiss ends up inheriting the Winter maiden's powers from Winter, who kills herself rather than allow Cinder to take the power after being beaten. Unfortunately, she's more or less cornered by Salem's forces, and ends up dragged off along with Ruby.wild mass guess

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 22nd 2020 at 9:31:40 AM

SomeNewGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#1919: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:31:26 PM

The last time the logo was being slashed in promo material, it was for Volume 5, and the W was being cut almost clean through the middle. And we all know what happened to Weiss that volume.

VoidsEmpathy Emissary of the Void from Realm of In-Between Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
Emissary of the Void
#1920: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:36:31 PM

It's almost like they're not being subtle at all now with another possible team split, except it's in half rather than individually. If it's for just the volume, maybe, but at this point I'm not sure if it even matters now.

Edited by VoidsEmpathy on Jan 22nd 2020 at 9:37:10 AM

[DATA LOST]
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1921: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:51:42 PM

[up] To me the most likely team split involves Ruby being captured by Salem, you could come up with some reason or another for Weiss to be dragged along as well, and then you have that. Maybe next volume opens with Weiss and Ruby at Evernight as Salem's "guests" (Salem means it when she says they're free to leave...But it's not like they can actually go anywhere considering they're surrounded by Grimm), and Blake and Yang in an Atlesian military prison.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 22nd 2020 at 10:22:34 AM

SomeNewGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#1922: Jan 22nd 2020 at 6:53:28 PM

People on tumblr are also theorizing Blake is going to lose a leg due to the placement of the slash.

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#1923: Jan 22nd 2020 at 7:02:47 PM

It's gonna be a fake out bait thing.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1924: Jan 22nd 2020 at 7:04:44 PM

[up] Maybe. The volume is definitely ending with either a downer or a cliffhanger.


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