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Ryno_v Since: Dec, 2017
#1751: Jan 16th 2020 at 12:11:34 PM

Volume 7 Chapter 11 Thumbnail and Description [1]

Title

Gravity

Description

Between Watts, Tyrian, and the seemingly endless swarm of Grimm, evil is encroaching on our heroes from all sides. The biggest threat, however, may be hiding where they least expect it.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1752: Jan 16th 2020 at 4:03:51 PM

What we saw of the world in Ozma’s time didn’t really suggest technology that would allow for space travel; nobody in Salem’s army was carrying a firearm, we don’t see any cyborgs or robots, or even things like trains.

We saw almost nothing about that world to draw much of any conclusions about it.

In light of that I think “different” from Jinn meant poorer.

Well, that goes without saying, giving the visuals we received while she was mentioning it. I'm not talking about the obvious meaning. I'm talking about random possibilities based on hints and interesting wording. I'm talking about the persistent theme in this show that Humanity Revised is lesser and poorer in many different ways that Humanity Prime, that the God of Light has basically said that, in the absence of the gods, humanity cannot achieve its original potential and that even Humanity Prime wasn't achieving it (whatever that may be).

Do I think there are definitely Old World satellites orbiting Remnant? No. Do I like the subversive potential of the theory? Yes. Do I think it fits the show's themes? Yes. Do I care if the theory is wrong? No. Do I think it's a fun theory to play with? Hell, yes.

So if ancient humans traveled to the stars (which raises a But What About the Astronauts? question), I expect they did so via magic instead of technology, but that raises the issue with dust losing potency away from Remnant’s surface.

Well, I'm not discussing ancient humans travelling to the stars. I'm solely talking about satellite technology. That's not the same thing.

So far, the show has sought to differentiate between Dust and Magic. While I connect Dust to the destruction of Humanity Prime, I do not believe that Dust automatically equals Magic. Even if it's crystallised human, I don't believe it's crystallised magic as if Dust and Magic are the same thing that follow the same rules (we've been all but told that Dust and Magic do not play by the same rules).

Dust is going to be a fragment of the whole, not the sum of it.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 16th 2020 at 12:22:48 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1753: Jan 16th 2020 at 6:59:57 PM

We saw almost nothing about that world to draw much of any conclusions about it.

True, but what we saw is all we can go off of, and we saw cities that looked like your standard fantasy setting, an army with no vehicles or firearms; I don't think they had that kind of stuff. It's totally plausible they had various sorts of Magi Tech.

I'm talking about the persistent theme in this show that Humanity Revised is lesser and poorer in many different ways that Humanity Prime, that the God of Light has basically said that, in the absence of the gods, humanity cannot achieve its original potential and that even Humanity Prime wasn't achieving it (whatever that may be).

That's not necessarily a persistent theme. It's something that the God of Light expressed, and something that Salem also alluded to with her plan to supplant humanity with her and Oz's magic wielding descendants; the idea that modern humans are defective, which is one of the ways I have the two of them pegged as Not So Different.


The way I see it, magic was a useful tool, but not really essential to what makes humans what they are, for better or worse. Without magic, humans built technology instead, and in some respects have already surpassed their ancestors, both in terms of what they've built and in terms of the ways they've found to kill things. I think were it not for Salem constantly cooking up newer and deadlier varieties of Grimm, I think modern humans would already have pushed Grimm to the dark corners of the world like its seemed they had in the pre-Remnant era.

So far, the show has sought to differentiate between Dust and Magic. While I connect Dust to the destruction of Humanity Prime, I do not believe that Dust automatically equals Magic.

Dust clearly isn't the same thing, but at the same time the whole "doesn't work far away from Remnant" thing sounds extremely arbitrary, almost as if it was a built in limit designed to prevent humans from leaving the planet, which is exactly what I think it is. However if dust wasn't created intentionally, any built in limit like that would have to be inherited from magic.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 16th 2020 at 10:21:38 AM

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#1754: Jan 16th 2020 at 8:07:45 PM

The biggest threat, however, may be hiding where they least expect it.

I suspect that must mean Salem and/or her allies are here...

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#1755: Jan 16th 2020 at 8:47:09 PM

Or, ya know, Cinder and Neo.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#1756: Jan 17th 2020 at 5:16:25 AM

funny thing here, I watch the after show were monty talk about episode 1 and 2 or season two and he said that he dosent call dust magic by using clark third law(not by name), saying that dust is on thing.

But considering the fact the maiden are the maiden because they use magic, I wonder if there is no other issue here.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1757: Jan 17th 2020 at 8:41:51 AM

[up] It’s Outside Context Magic, or at least it’s intended as such. As it stands dust and particularly semblances were nebulous in terms of the rules they operated under, and consequently the “WTF magic is real?” From the heroes came across as Arbitrary Skepticism.

If I’d been world-building this, I’d had ditched semblances entirely, and made hunters powers depend on consumption of dust, ala the Templars use of Lyrium in Dragon Age. and I’ve have fleshed out the actual properties of the substances a bit more.


Show a periodic table with an extra section on it, mention that dust consumption was thought to gradually drive huntsmen mad...until chemists discovered that was actually due to heavy metal contamination, and have modern hunters use wearable injector rigs instead of grinding up dust and taking it as a (likely cadmium laced) potion. “Real” touches like that are what you need if you want to sell the idea that, to the denizens of the setting, this is a science, not magic.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 17th 2020 at 11:42:07 AM

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1758: Jan 17th 2020 at 12:37:15 PM

It's totally plausible they had various sorts of Magi Tech.

But... a Magi Tech setting is exactly what we've been discussing. Isn't it? What else would it be?

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1759: Jan 17th 2020 at 3:24:34 PM

[up] What I was saying is that there's no good reason to think the more familiar industrial age technology that exists in the modern setting existed back then; if ancient humans in this setting went to space I'd guess it would involve magical Teleporters and Transporters.


Anyway, it's an interesting idea, but there's another serious issue with your specific idea of Magi Tech satellites, namely the confirmed existence of binoulars in the setting. You really don't need very high magnification to pick out objects in orbit, and the implication that optics in general exist. Not necessarily things at the altitude they'd need to be in order to be stable for thousands upon thousands of years, but even a basic telescope will resolve those kinds of things.


Maybe there's a moon base on the far side of the moon, but that runs into the issue of Remnant's moon not being tidally locked to the planet, hence why the moon sometimes looks whole.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Jan 17th 2020 at 9:53:55 AM

TwinBird Dunkies addict from Eastern Mass Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Dunkies addict
#1760: Jan 17th 2020 at 3:48:29 PM

[up] I'm not sure the moon is a moon at all; it doesn't seem to have phases except for the face it presents, which makes me think it's always opposite the sun - i.e., outside Remnant's orbit, in its own.

Edited by TwinBird on Jan 17th 2020 at 6:51:40 AM

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1761: Jan 17th 2020 at 4:36:21 PM

[up] In one of the Wo R episodes we got a shot of Remnant from orbit where the moon has a visible terminator.

Thebrawlbro Since: Aug, 2013
#1762: Jan 18th 2020 at 8:32:58 AM

Well, time for Team RWBY vs the Ace Ops. Everyone knew this was almost certainly gonna happen. Watts may or not be dead, could see them going either way with this, but the implication for now is definitely that he's dead.

MrBishop Eighth Seat from The Figverse Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Eighth Seat
#1763: Jan 18th 2020 at 9:06:31 AM

If someone could just take the Ironwood vs Watts song and inject it directly into my veins, that'd be great, thanks.

Seriously though, this was easily the best chapter this volume so far for me. I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. Just when we think things are going to be okay... that's when the big stuff drops. (Maybe literally, soon)

Statera est clavem
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#1765: Jan 18th 2020 at 9:36:45 AM

Welp... shit has officially hit the fan.

  • To all of you who wanted Ironwood to go Knight Templar, you got your wish. And he's turned into an idiot in the process. He had a good fight with Watts, though I have no idea if he killed Watts after. But Cinder choosing to taunt him has sent him over the edge. He's gonna ascend Atlas into the heavens and leave Mantle to die, and he's gonna declare Martial Law. He wants RWBY arrested and is forcing the Ace Ops sans Clover to do so. And while Marrow is the most reluctant, he's complying with orders at the moment, but it is possible he will be the one Ace Ops to defect.
    • Now, I say he's turned into an idiot because in his entire moment of turning Knight Templar, he fails to see how many mistakes he's making.
      • He's using a former plan of Ozma's, to send Atlas in the Heaven's, and claims he's doing what Ozma didn't because Ozma wasn't strong enough. Instead of, ya know, actual reasons why Ozma didn't, like causing panic, low air levels due to reaching a higher altitude, higher risk of aerial Grimm, higher risk of damage during storms. No, its just cause he wasn't strong enough.
      • He's alienating allies who have issue with what he's doing and ordering they be arrested, when the only thing they did was omit the truth, and yet still demonstrated they are against Salem and want to help him. Yes, this is a clear parallel to what happened with Ozpin, but its even worse really, since while Ruby had to force the truth out of Oz by using Jin, Ironwood only learned because Oscar told him, and made it clear it was because he trusted Ironwood. So the parallel isn't identical, if anything, its worse on Ironwood's part, since unlike Ozpin did to them, the protagonists did choose to trust him, its just he apparently won't accept anything but complete honesty from the outset even if they're Properly Paranoid.
      • He's cut all communications after Ruby warned the others. He's possibly even turned Penny and Winter against him since Ruby's message got to them too.
      • Not to mention his decision to send Winter to get Fria's powers is a case of History Repeats, one that Cinder outright invoked. Cinder didn't know where Amber was hidden, and only found her by following Ozpin after he came to get Pyrrha. And now she's gonna find Fria by following Winter, having figured out that she was Ironwood's candidate after he called her.
    • Ironwood is making more and more shortsighted decisions out of fear and panic, and its making him go from a Well-Intentioned Extremist to flat out Lawful Stupid.
  • RWBY meanwhile reaffirm their vow as Huntresses is to the people of Remnant, not any government. This is what sets them apart between the Ace Ops, and more accurately highlights the flaw in Atlas Academy's teachings. Huntsmen are supposed to be free to do as they desire, its why they're basically glorified mercenaries. While Atlas may not conscript students, they do heavily indoctrinate them into being loyal to the Atlesian Military. Robin and her Merry Huntresses aren't the norm for Atlas Graduates, they're the outlier. Most Atlas Graduates are more akin to the Ace Ops, loyal to the Military. Its why the Ace Ops sans Marrow kept questioning RWBY on their loyalties, as if the fact they were Huntsmen should mean they are by default loyal to Atlas. Marrow is the only one not doing so because he has Conflicting Loyalty. He's the newbie in the group, meaning he's likely fresh out of the Academy, and he's the least indoctrinated. He's seen how RNJRWBYO have interacted, he's worked alongside a lot of them, and even struck a minor friendship with Jaune. He did what the other Ace Ops couldn't do: he didn't treat it just like a job.
  • Turns out Watts was carrying in his bag a Seer for direct contact with Salem. Makes sense really, since he only needed his Scroll and Rings to hack into things, so the bag seemed superfluous. And apparently a Seer can kill itself to project Salem and let her interact with more than one person. Salem seemed to have more spikes on her, so I'm assuming she ditched the dress and is wearing some Grimm themed armor. And she confirms what many thought: she had a hand in Summer's death. And judging by her deliberate mention to Ruby after Ruby brought up her past, as well as knowing Summer is related to Ruby period, Salem knows a lot more about the Rose family than we thought, and knew saying it would make Ruby break down.
  • I am concerned that right before Ruby broke down, her Silver Eyes nearly went off. Considering so far that she's thrice before activated them from Strong Emotion it would seem that while the clear mind technique Maria suggested is more useful, Ruby being forced to a mental break can cause the SEW to go out of control. And since Ruby constantly bottles up her emotions, well, I fear she'll be losing what little control she had over her powers.
  • Conversely to the Watts vs Ironwood fight being awesome, I found Tyrian vs. Clover, Robyn, and Qrow a tad... underwhelming. While it was cool seeing Qrow go all out on Tyrian again, Tyrian barely put up a fight and went down way too easy. Though with Clover about to fight Qrow and Robyn now that Ironwood has lost it, Tyrian may take this opportunity to turn it into a Mêlée à Trois.
  • Lastly, Oscar has gone missing and the Atlesian Knights guarding him have been destroyed. JNR are likely gonna go after Neo, since its obvious this was Neo's handiwork. I question though what is Neo's endgame. Why take Oscar if the Lamp was all she needed? Is she gonna make a deal with him to try and get his help in facing Cinder? Did she even take him and he hasn't just run somewhere else? Are they fighting right now?
So, yeah, shit has hit the fan. And depending on how this goes, I may fear this will make me dislike Ironwood. I had hoped that this wouldn't happen after his talks with Oscar. But nope, we're going full on Civil War now. Just great. Hopefully Marrow, Penny, and Winter make it out of this and defect to the protagonists side, and hopefully Ironwood regrows his brain next time.

[up]For what, not immediately trusting the person who was a hair's breath away from declaring Martial Law with a secret that undoubtedly make him declare Martial Law? Yeah, good he called them out on that.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jan 18th 2020 at 1:41:45 PM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
SomeNewGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#1766: Jan 18th 2020 at 9:39:26 AM

Can't wait for the sea of people giving Ironwood the Draco in Leather Pants treatment like they did Cordovin despite the fact he's clearly, blatantly lost his mind.

[up][up]Well that didn't take long.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#1767: Jan 18th 2020 at 9:42:53 AM

So uh, yeah, Salem is on the way, and there's two episodes left in the volume. My guess is that Ruby goes off alone to confront her, and gets captured. Salem directly references Ruby's mother, and how "she was wrong, too" about not having to kill Salem to stop her. Notice how Salem is vague about what actually happened to Summer; she doesn't say "She said those same words, right before I killed her"; this makes me like my corruption theory even more. Ruby also breaks down into tears. I'm betting the next episode she'll be acting like she's fine and everything's fine despite it being obvious to everyone that it's not.

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#1768: Jan 18th 2020 at 9:53:29 AM

[up][up][up] For backstabbing the person who put a lot of trust in them by not only lying to him but also going behind his back and giving his direct competition insider secrets when he brought up why he didn't want them leaked. And then they only told the truth when half the city's on fire.

It's one thing to not trust the paranoid man. It's another to basically trigger that paranoia by lying to his face.

Edited by Psyga315 on Jan 18th 2020 at 9:59:07 AM

SomeNewGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#1769: Jan 18th 2020 at 9:57:31 AM

"backstabbing" Oh for fuck's sake dude, Ironwood was acting sketchy as fuck and the team was still reeling from having a major benefactor ending up being shady behind their backs. The whole point of this arc was that after what Ozpin pulled, they had no idea who they could trust. And they told Robyn about the tower because they needed her help and they needed to stop Mantle and Atlas from tearing each other apart.

But no, go on, tell me more about how he's totally justified in becoming a dictator willing to murder thousands to save tens.

Edited by SomeNewGuy on Jan 18th 2020 at 9:58:06 AM

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#1770: Jan 18th 2020 at 9:58:39 AM

[up][up][up] Ironwood may have lost it but what other options do they have? They can't beat Salem in a fight, Ozpin only ever managed a pyrrhic victory against her while he was at his strongest. Her showing up means the best they can hope to accomplish is keep her busy enough that she can't kill absolutely everyone after she defeats them. Fighting Ironwood is only going to make things worse because even if they win everyone's weakened more by the fight and Ironwood not being in charge leaves the military's leadership decapitated. Convincing him was their only real shot at making the situatio better and Yang keeping secrets (once again given Raven's Maiden status) made that that much more difficult.

The only real option they had other than this, is ask Jinn for a way to salvage this mess.

Edited by doineedaname on Jan 18th 2020 at 1:14:13 PM

VoidsEmpathy Emissary of the Void from Realm of In-Between Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
Emissary of the Void
#1771: Jan 18th 2020 at 10:10:15 AM

I don't think that any one side is entirely at fault here, and that's probably the point. Salem being there was all that was needed to set him over the edge, even if she was speaking through a projection. Not only that, this entire thing could have been a distraction while she attacked Vacuo.

Ever since the fall of Beacon, Ironwood did what he thought was best by keeping his kingdom as secured as possible and that didn't even work. He trusted Ozpin's students to help him despite everything that was set against him. As he himself said, had it not been for the lack of trust from them and Robyn's own actions, he wouldn't have been pushed this far and it's blowing up in their faces by doing exactly what Ozpin had done by lying through omission.

[DATA LOST]
Mizerous Pet Owner from Hell Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Pet Owner
#1772: Jan 18th 2020 at 10:11:48 AM

Cinder:KeIkAkU dOrI!

Edited by Mizerous on Jan 18th 2020 at 1:12:04 PM

Just Makima.
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#1773: Jan 18th 2020 at 10:13:32 AM

[up][up][up][up] So what should they have done? Kept it all a secret until it blows up in the worst possible way ever? They're no worse than Ozpin at that point.

TwinBird Dunkies addict from Eastern Mass Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Dunkies addict
#1774: Jan 18th 2020 at 10:14:53 AM

Well, at least the subtitles are back.

When I saw Watts counting, I was sure the fight was going to end differently. I guess that's what they wanted me to think.

Once Watts's aura breaks, Ironwood seems to be going for an award in Just Shoot Him.

...so I guess he killed Watts? If not, I'm not sure what he did. The only reason I can think to offscreen it like that is if Watts is still alive, though.

So there's the fight in the opening.

Wait, is Cinder's apartment in the Academy? Why are there apartments like that in the Academy?

Yang and Blake are damn lucky Salem showed up when she did.

If I had any doubt that the last question would be used on Summer, it's gone now.

...did Oscar tell Ironwood the true purpose of the Relics? ...did Ozpin?

Well, my assumption that Atlas would be crashing down may have been exactly wrong.

So now Clover has to arrest his ex and his crush, and Winter has to kill an old lady. Yay!

So this is the bit where the heroes all fight each other. I first thought this was coming, then that it wasn't, but apparently it comes at the end? We've only got two more episodes left in the volume, so what the hell are we going to end on?

Edited by TwinBird on Jan 18th 2020 at 1:23:40 PM

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#1775: Jan 18th 2020 at 10:32:29 AM

We're gonna end on a cliffhanger and a lot of bullshit. The decision to have Ironwood go Knight Templar was a bad one when they already had Oscar tell him the truth. If they wanted him to go Knight Templar, they shouldn't have had Oscar tell him the truth and had him learn some other way. If they wanted to use the Oscar scene, don't make Ironwood go Knight Templar. The entire point of that scene was Oscar making sure Ironwood didn't go off the deep end and that he knew the protagonists did trust Ironwood and could trust them. And yet he seems to have taken the exact opposite idea from this despite taking the original idea earlier. Plus, Ironwood has pretty much lost his goddamn mind now and is making stupid decisions, not just from a strategy standpoint, but just from a logic standpoint.

I can only see the Volume ending on the Ace Ops and RWBY in tatters, Cinder ready to try and claim Fria's powers only for something to go wrong, Oscar and Neo doing whatever, Qrow and Robyn in the midst of fighting Clover, Tyrian escaping, Ironwood trying to send Atlas into the sky, and Salem launching her assault on Atlas. Cue Cliffhanger, and a lot of bullshit out of the desire to turn Ironwood into both an antagonist and an idiot.

[up][up]There's no point in arguing. No matter what any of us say, we're not gonna agree. So for the sake of my sanity, I'm bowing out of this particular argument. You think what you want, I'll think what I want.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Jan 18th 2020 at 1:35:50 PM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.

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