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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#126: Nov 10th 2018 at 3:44:10 PM

Incidentally, here's a wild mass guess; by the end of the season, Salem will get her hands on the relic of knowledge*, and ask a very similar question to Ozpin: "How can I destroy the Gods?", resulting in the same answer Jinn gave to Ozpin.

The result will be a Villainous BSoD.

Then the Gods show up, tired of waiting around for Ozpin to deliver results, and unsurprisingly find humanity wanting. However, because humanity 2.0 came from dust rather than their direct actions, they can't simply Thanos snap them like they did last time, and the final arc of the series is set in motion.

* Possibly because one of team RWBY or JNR, disillusioned with Ozpin and sympathetic to Salem's whole Rage Against the Heavens shtick given what massive douches the Gods have been shown to be decides it would be better to get it over with and see whether she's right about being stronger than the Gods this time around rather than playing a never ending game of keep-away.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 6:48:55 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127: Nov 10th 2018 at 4:54:55 PM

So has anyone noticed that Salem's backstory kind of paints her as a gender-flipped Kratos?

"Hates the Gods for taking away her loved ones"

"accidentally killed her family"

"Cursed with immortality"

Never My Fault attitude

"Basically destroyed the world in an attempt to kill the Gods"

"Ash grey skin (as a permanent reminder of her sins)"

"tried to go straight and have a family"

There's a very different order of events, but some similar overall story beats.

Also, Salem didn't get her forehead dot or tainted veins until some time after her falling out with Ozpin. Part of her attempts to become powerful enough to defeat the Gods for real the third time around?

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 8:12:50 AM

Ryno_v Since: Dec, 2017
#128: Nov 10th 2018 at 5:31:21 PM

[up]Yes I did think that her backstory reminded me of Kratos I honestly thought when she went to the Grimm pool she was going to do the Kratos " gods of olympus have abandoned me fall".

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#129: Nov 10th 2018 at 5:40:32 PM

This show is totally going to end with team RWBY killing God (of light and dark) by the way. We're too far down the gnostic rabbit hole not to have the Gods be the final villains, and I am absolutely hyped.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 8:41:26 AM

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#130: Nov 10th 2018 at 5:40:43 PM

And did they really kill the kids during that fight? You know the rule: no body, no death.

We never saw Roman's body when he got nommed by the Griffon.

We never saw Pyrrha's body when she got incinerated.

Going by that logic, they're alive.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#131: Nov 10th 2018 at 5:44:01 PM

Incidentally, what tropes should we add to Salem when the time comes?

Here's my thoughts.

Rage Against the Heavens definitely, no question about it. A God I Am yep (and to Ozpin since he went through a phase where he went along with that), Dark Messiah yep, Dueling Messiahs (with Ozpin) possibly. We need more clarification about her current goal (my suspicion is she's trying to summon the Gods to kill them.) to say whether it's Well-Intentioned Extremist or Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum or Knight Templar. Considering her whole spiel about creating the paradise the old gods never could, there's also Utopia Justifies the Means in there.

Anti-Villain where I think we'll start having some contention.

Then when it comes to the two brothers...At this point, I'd be prepared to put God Is Evil after they committed mass genocide over their creations standing up to them and threatened to do it again if they don't shape up, and also God and Satan Are Both Jerks. Jerkass God definitely, Light Is Not Good for the God of Light.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 9:00:29 AM

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#132: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:00:13 PM

So did anyone else notice that the Ozpin who started making the cane had a husband and kids? Also was I the only one who thought that when he planned the door it would be Salem looking to wipe out his family?

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#133: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:02:04 PM

[up] Not just kids but kids that appeared to have silver eyes.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#134: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:15:05 PM

The God of Darkness ended up being pretty cool in this episode. Much more reasonable than I expected

On the problem of evil: there's a reason that it's a pretty big debate in the real world. If you have a preconceived view of that it's not fair to make Jumping the Shark accusations of the show for taking an opposing viewpoint of it.

From this episode, it's pretty easy to see how the God of Light's actions could be justified. He mentioned several times about the balance of life and death and I think that's more than just the 'rules' he and his brother agreed to - it is incredibly common in fiction for disrupting the balance of life and death to create tangible consequences. Typically apocalyptic consequences.

The fact that the God of Darkness would bring someone back on a whim doesn't mean there are no consequences - it means he doesn't respect those consequences when someone is feeding his ego. This is still the guy who likes destroying shit and had to be reigned in by his brother.

The God of Darkness destroying everyone is definitely extreme, but I also think that there's more to than than we were told. The God of Light tells Ozma that humanity is no more, but as soon as Ozma accepts his mission he's reincarnated into an existing human society. Either it took some time for him to re-appear, or there were already humans around.

Calling them evil is massively jumping the gun.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:17:44 PM

[up] The humans who came back probably arose from dust given Salem literally said that in the opening monologue, and some time most likely passed. Its also a massive understatement to call mass genocide of your own creations "definitely extreme"; that's absolutely monstrous, beyond the pale, and unforgivable. Worse, they're threatening to do it again if their demands aren't met, and since Humans Are Flawed said demands are basically impossible to fulfill; it's especially hypocritical since they themselves are deeply flawed and far from infallible.

The gods were more than capable of obliterating Salem and everyone who chose to follow her in her rebellion against them, but instead they collectively punished the entire human race for their actions. Moreover, their demands weren't especially unreasonable (not having to watch loved ones wither away and die); the Gods have thus far not given any good reason why resurrecting people is a bad thing.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 9:21:40 AM

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#136: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:32:35 PM

[up] Well of course, Salem cut the God of Light off as he began explaining why he couldn't.

[up][up] One comment I saw reads into the God of Darkness Thanosing them as him being extremely enraged at the fact that his creation used the gifts he gave them to try and kill his brother, who he seems to care about a great deal even if they don't get along. After trying to manipulate him into helping them by making it seem like someone came to him for help for the first time instead of avoiding him out of fear while worshiping his brother. Despite the gifts he gave them and his role in their creation.

Edited by doineedaname on Nov 10th 2018 at 9:33:27 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#137: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:34:28 PM

[up] Okay, for the time being they're off the hook for God Is Evil, but if they don't provide a satisfactory explanation for why they can't just resurrect people and why all the suffering of the human condition exists, they're definitely evil.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#138: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:41:33 PM

I know Salem said that, but that could also be true if the remaining humans rebuilt their civilization from dust. The humans being completely wiped out and then a new species emerging after that just seems too farfetched and doesn't explain how Salem's backstory became a legend.

And they didn't just threaten to wipe out humanity a second time. They left, and gave Ozpin a chance to reverse their decision. If the gods are never re-summoned by humanity, than humanity can just live without them. If they do re-summon them, than they'll either be rewarded with the Gods presence and gifts or wiped out. That's multiple sides to that that you ignored.

Also frankly, there is no reason why they Gods should resurrect people just because they demand it.

Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#139: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:48:05 PM

If these episodes continue to be good, is it possible to write off Volume 5 as Seasonal Rot?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#140: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:49:16 PM

[up][up] It goes far beyond giving out free resurrections. If there are no negative consequences for doing so and they the means to do things differently, the whole fact that the Gods are subjecting their creations to all the numerous forms of suffering inherent in the human condition would make them utterly reprehensible.

So far we know that they can quite easily resurrect people and make them immortal, so aging, disease, and death are three horrible things the Gods are subjecting their creations to. We don’t necessarily know if there are negative consequences to not doing it that way , but I’m skeptical.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 9:51:24 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#141: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:51:58 PM

The God of Light outright says there are, for a start.

Even if their weren't, still no reason they'd be obligated to do so.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#142: Nov 10th 2018 at 6:57:46 PM

[up] Do you believe it is wrong to inflict suffering on other sapient beings when there exist readily apparent alternatives that result in less suffering?

Also, the Gods strongly implied the rules about not raising the dead was about resolving conflict between the brothers, but if the Dark brother doesn’t actually care about that, it’s a pointless rule.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 9:58:32 AM

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#143: Nov 10th 2018 at 7:09:01 PM

[up] I saw a comment elsewhere that I thought was an interesting take on his motives there and willingness to stick by the rule he was so quickly willing to bend.

Thought on the God of Darkness. We can all agree that this guy is a dick. At the same time I kind of pity him though. Its in his nature to be a dick. He seems to be the literal embodiment of the very concept of destruction. By his very nature he finds the very idea of life and creation to be revolting, but then when he finally decided to go against his nature and follow his brother's suggestion to create something grand together their joint creations all rejected him. Once again his brother was the big winner while humanity who were just as much his creations as his brother's wanted nothing to do with him. For who knows how long, perhaps thousand of years he is left to stew in bitterness all by himself, while his brother is showered with prayers and offerings. Even though he gave humanity magic as a gift they have no love for him, only fear. All because of something that he cannot change, the very essence of who he is.

And then one day it looks like things have finally turned around. A human has finally come to him for succor instead of his brother. Finally someone shows him the respect and love that his brother is given as a matter of course. A boon is asked of him and sure it breaks the cosmic balance that he and his brother agreed upon but so what? It's just one minor breach, surely not worth making a fuss about. Someone has finally come to him for aid and he is damn well going to give it to them. And if it finally let's him prove himself superior to his brother then so much the better.

And then it's revealed that it's all a lie. All the love and respect he was shown? Just lies told to manipulate him. Lies that nearly caused him to come to blows with his brother, who he does still care about despite their differences. He retracts the gift that was not asked for in good faith, punishment is given and he puts the matter behind him. Going back to his solitude.

And then the humans that he created had the audacity to attack him and his brother and attempt to kill them with the gift he gave them. I do not agree with his decision to kill off humanity but just like I can see why Salem did the things she did I can also kind of see why he as a being of pure destruction would look at humanity and decide that he has not gotten anything out of creating them and that the time has come to pull the plug. Again, he is evil as fuck, but I can't help but wonder what would have happened if someone had approached him in good faith and asked for a boon that he could actually grant

Edited by doineedaname on Nov 10th 2018 at 10:09:54 AM

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#144: Nov 10th 2018 at 7:14:16 PM

...Well, I'm back on board entirely. 3 solid episodes, especially that last one, sold me on this. I'm finally getting what I wanted out of this.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#145: Nov 10th 2018 at 7:24:24 PM

[up][up][up] They're not inflicting suffering.

There's definitely more to it than you're suggesting - the God of Light talks about a balance and the agreement with his brother, and you've pointed out how it doesn't make sense for that rule to only exist to prevent conflict between the brothers.

Edited by Saiga on Nov 11th 2018 at 1:29:14 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#146: Nov 10th 2018 at 8:12:51 PM

[up][up] That comes as a surprise. I'm honestly surprised they pulled their shit together like they did.

[up] Maybe it's because they don't want people to be clued into the fact that there's no afterlife and they're just devouring the souls of the deceased in order to sustain their own existence, ala the Gods in Divinity? Ozma didn't seem to remember the afterlife at all, and while that's commonplace enough to avoid offending religious sensibilities, they've already crossed that particular line by involving creator gods directly in the plot.

We don't know the real reason the Gods had a rule against resurrecting people, and it's entirely possible it's something that makes them look even worse (like what I proposed) rather than something that justifies their apparent callous disregard for the suffering of their creations.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 11:16:29 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#147: Nov 10th 2018 at 8:16:20 PM

Anything is possible but I wouldn't just jump to the most evil idea possible.

Ozma's dialogue makes it sound like he DOES remember the afterlife, he seems too certain about how it works. If he came back and realized he didn't remember it, it'd be weird that he'd still be certain how it works.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#148: Nov 10th 2018 at 8:18:13 PM

[up] His dialogue was basically "WHERE AM I" both times he was resurrected. He asked the God of Light to pass on the afterlife under the assumption that Salem would be there, but if he'd actually been in the afterlife he'd have known she wasn't. If we're going with my own theory, the Gods presumably have told people what to expect in the (nonexistent) afterlife, and Ozpin's expectations are shaped accordingly.

As far as anything being possible, there's not much room between something monstrously evil like that and some (in my opinion contrived) reason to justify the Gods' refusal to alleviate one major component of the suffering inherent in the human condition, namely death and its siblings of disease and aging. If there's an actual in story reason it's going to be one of the two.

I'd also like to point out that, going off of Rooster Teeth's estimates, there's probably going to be around 3 to 6 more volumes of show remaining. There's only so much mileage they can get out of Salem as a central villain once all the cards are on the table about her, and given that's seemingly the case maybe 1/2 of the way through the show's planned run, that strongly suggests to me that she's not going to be the final antagonist, and the only logical escalation from Salem would be the Gods themselves, ala Xenoblade, which it should be noted also used the "Gods are sustaining themselves off of the souls of the dead" twist, and which I now strongly suspect was a direct inspiration for the plot of RWBY, given it had a very similar twist involving the past and motivations of its apparent main antagonist.

That's a super Doylist line of reasoning, I grant you, but I think it's fairly sound.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 11:36:29 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#149: Nov 10th 2018 at 8:38:21 PM

I find it more feasible than he believed that he hadn't found Salem in the afterlife than he still believed he knew exactly how the afterlife worked despite being dead and having an unexplained lack of memory of the afterlife.

And honestly, without any more reasoning the gods aren't monstrously evil. So no, there's plenty of room. It also doesn't have to be contrived to have a reason for resurrection having consequences - that's a big part of many belief systems, and messing with the dead is usually a terrible idea in most of fiction as well.

Edited by Saiga on Nov 11th 2018 at 2:40:01 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#150: Nov 10th 2018 at 8:48:50 PM

[up] There's not really a strong indication he knew exactly how the afterlife worked, he just had an idea that he'd be able to see Salem again.

Also, "without any more reasoning, the Gods aren't monstrously evil" is patently false. Without any more reasoning they are, through willful negligence, responsible for all the incalculable amounts of suffering inherent in the human condition, since it's not at all clear that there are any good reasons for their rules about life and death.

Maybe they are by their intrinsic nature incapable of acting any differently, which I suppose would make them non-evil, but still a detrimental force for the world that ought to be excised if possible.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Nov 10th 2018 at 11:52:32 AM


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