Yeah, I never really liked how Penny was treated either. Same with Pyrrha. If you stop and think hard about either of these deaths, you realize how cruel they are... and for what purpose?
I'm not sure where this analogy came from, but I like to think of storytelling + tone to be a ball. If you're going to throw the ball to the ground and make your story "hit rock bottom", there is an expectation that there will be a corresponding "bounce" that will balance out the tragedy. I don't really see that done well in RWBY. Some terrible events have great payoffs (Yang + Blake subplots, Ren subplot), but others don't (Pyrrha's death, and possibly Penny's death). Personally, I hope Penny's death leads to awesome things to make it "worth the pain".
Edited by mach56gs on Apr 1st 2021 at 12:52:11 PM
Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 1st 2021 at 4:11:22 AM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
That's entirely different than Pyrrha's death being "reasonable" or "making sense". Just because the writer plan something out or does not make the decision sensible or good. You say:
When that is the reason why Pyrrha died as well? It's a bitter pill to swallow, but you must also consider the very grim possibility that Penny was just as much as a plot device as Pyrrha was. A tragic Pinocchio-plot to further traumatize our heroes and give depth to Winter's character, designed to die twice from her conception as a character.
Ozma is an extremely special case dictated by the gods themselves, we all know this. There is no indication that any maiden has had "previous memories" or "spirits talking to them". We would've seen it by now. Penny's promise of "being with you" is just as effectual as JNR fighting "as though Pyrrha's still with us" - empty sentiment.
I could say the same thing about Pyrrha? And frankly, I though Penny had a corpse after Jaune killed her - I don't recall her body vanishing or that the writers even drew attention to that fact.
Honestly, the only reason why I'm so skeptical is that I'm going to be pretty annoyed if Penny gets all of this convenience and Disney-magic to keep her somewhat involved in the plot while we have actual living characters that need the screen-time and development much more desperately.
It frankly doesn't make sense that Winter would be such a major character that she'd be spending time talking to an incorporeal spirit-Penny when we have so many characters, supporting and non-supporting, that demand screen-time.
Edited by mach56gs on Apr 1st 2021 at 1:25:18 AM
The main difference between Pyrrha and Penny IMO is that the former made a conscious decision to walk to her death. It wasn't a good decision by any stretch of it, but it was ultimately her own. (of course, YMMV on how much it was truly Pyrrha and how much it was expectations put on her shoulders)
Penny just dies. She gets to pick how she dies (that being by Jaune's sword and by bestowing Winter her power), but the moment of death is largely out of her hands.
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Part of the problem is that while RWBY usually does fine at the bringing the characters down part, it isn't great at that place in the overall narrative or properly bringing the characters back up to counter balance that.
When you look at the overall narrative, the characters hit their seemingly lowest ebb, the managed to come back together and rally rise back up, only for the rug to get pulled out from under them and for them to crash and burn again and hit an even lower ebb.
That could work fine in a shorter story, having a fake out before the real rise to victory. But RWBY has been going for eight years and that just makes the whole thing exhausting.
Edited by Gaogaigar54 on Apr 1st 2021 at 1:31:10 AM
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If you look at the platform after the Staff hits the ground, you'll see there isn't a single trace of Penny's body on it. The last we saw of her body was right before Crocea Mors broke, at which point Winter shows up, and Penny's body mysteriously vanishes. Pyrrha's body vanished specifically because of the manner in which she died, Cinder immolating her from the inside out with a flaming arrow. Penny was just stabbed, so that wouldn't make her vanish.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 1st 2021 at 4:32:16 AM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.Good grief. How many pages have you guys gone through since the episode came out? It's going to take me forever to catch up!
Anyway, I'm late to the party, I know, but here are my rambles about the episode.
Volume 8, Episode 14 thoughts
- Maria: Don't you think Penny has had enough people telling her what to do?
FNDM: Yeah! Let Penny make her own choices!
CRWBY: lol ok
- Well. Isn't that a content warning? Let me put on my thinking cap a second, polish my crystal ball, gaze into the future with an expression of enigmatic wisdom on my face and declare in echoing, sonorous tones... that there will be character death in this episode. Now, I know what you're all thinking. How on earth did she figure that out before the opening credits have even finished rolling? Well, what can I tell you? I. Drink. Milk.
- A lot more of the whale has disintegrated, but there's still so much of it left.
- And we're actually given a shot of Salem struggling to reform. Right now, she looks like gooey, liquid fire. That's a visual worth commenting on.
- No sign of Hazel's body.
- And we're straight into the Ironwood/Winter fight, where Ironwood uses the laser-cannon thing like a club as well as a cannon.
- Ironwood's a bit Never My Fault here, still claiming he's sacrificed everything for Atlas. He didn't learn a thing from Nora last volume.
- Winter is reiterating what Nora said, but in so much more detail.
- I take that back. Ironwood's very Never My Fault. No-one's grateful? He's heading into Salem levels of Never My Fault.
- Penny doesn't seem to want to engage Cinder, she keeps Cinder chasing her all over the place. My guess is that Penny is trying to distract Cinder from the refugees, the way she tried (and failed) to distract Cinder from Amity Tower.
- When they fly past the camera, as they get more distant, Penny looks like a bird with the way her swords are fanned like feathers to either side of her, just like wings. With the fire from her feet looking like a peacock train on fire, she's looking like a phoenix. A green phoenix.
- Weiss to the rescue. Her Queen Lancer looks like it's in bad shape though. It's leaving behind the kind of contrails that make me think an engine's blown and the pilot's trying to keep the plane airborne.
- Jaune keeping himself and Nora on mission. Very much the opposite of Team RWBY. It's the right decision. Someone has to help the refugees while the villains are occupied. It's also a good sign for Jaune's future as a crisis-management leader. My guess is that, in the distant future, Team JNR will become school leaders, training the next generation and leading kingdom defence while Team RWBY remain the mission-active team.
- And confirmed. Penny is trying to keep Cinder too busy to target refugees. The problem is that Penny's thinking of the pre-lecture Cinder. This Cinder is currently following the plan. She's buying time for Neo's fight with Ruby, keeping the heroes from helping Ruby.
- And Aura takes a hard hit from the fall. That's the first time we've seen Penny's Aura activate upon damage the way other people's Auras do.
- And, of course, they lose contact with the Staff.
- Cinder correcting Penny's misconceptions. It's not just Maiden power she's after.
- And Blake did indeed sacrifice revenge for Yang in favour of helping others. That's some desperation impatience from Blake there, telling Weiss to get up.
- And Weiss regains her senses enough to get back to her feet, grab the Staff (and her weapon) and run.
- Penny just powered up. She was fighting with eight blades. She's just activated ten.
- I'm a bit dubious about the merits of Blake versus Cinder. She has far less options against Cinder than Weiss does. On the other hand, Weiss is a fake mage fighting against a real mage. Her abilities may be powerful by Semblance standards, but not by the standards of real magic.
- Well, Qrow's clearly holding back and trying to reason with Harriet.
- Okay, leaving the man who is a walking bad luck charm to hold the bomb is a really bad idea unless I'm right about him awakening a good luck side of his Semblance.
- Well, we all expected Robyn to have picked up Elm and Marrow. But Elm's finally come to her senses after Robyn's people-not-bricks comment last episode.
- Nice Elm/Vine Semblance combination going on there to bring the two airships together.
- And Elm's finally giving up on professionalism and going for the friendship route. And that actually leaves Harriet shaken for a moment. Just long enough for Qrow to lose his fight with gravity and the bomb to slide.
- Hah, good luck charm incoming! I Knew It!. The pin just glowed exactly like it did whenever Clover activated his Semblance. I Knew It! II.
- And the bomb just conveniently slid to a stop against the side of the craft.
- I've been expecting Qrow to develop a good luck side for years, ever since we learned what his Semblance is — because he tied it so completely to crow folklore and, as I observed back then, crow folklore around the world is actually a mixture of good luck and misfortune. His surname is Welsh for 'blessed crow'. And you don't carry the name of a divine blessing if you're never going to develop some ability to 'bless' others.
- As soon as Clover showed up in V7, I expected him to be the vessel through which Qrow learns to develop that side of his ability.
- But, this actually a lot more awesome than I was expecting. I was expecting Qrow's first time to be an accidental activation, but he's actually deliberately trying to force his Semblance to achieve something good, and it worked. It's such a small act, but it's such an important and powerful one. That's so much more awesome than I was expecting.
- However, I've also been expecting Qrow to ever after activate his good luck by flicking the pin just like Clover did. And, given how he practically meditated on the pin to move the bomb, I think that's almost certainly going to become the case in future.
- And Watts activates the countdown. We all expected that.
- Judging by the alarmed look Harriet exchanged with Qrow, I'm guessing she might be coming to her senses.
- Okay, Ruby's a mess. Neo's barely having to try. It's like the V2 fight with Yang all over again.
- Ruby's engaging in excessive, pointless spinning, she does a flip in front of Neo for what appears to be no reason, but I think she was trying to do a leg kick onto Neo and Neo just stepped out of the way... because that's a move that takes far too long to set up against someone like Neo, and broadcasts the intended move so easily that Neo has all the time in the world to move out of the way.
- A close-up to show us that her eyes are full of tears. Just in case we weren't sure whether the bad fighting was deliberate or not.
- A pointless spinning throw that Neo barely even has to move to avoid, resulting in Ruby having to zoom past her to catch the weapon before it can fall off the platform and follow Yang.
- With a bored smirk, Neo hooks herself on the end of Ruby's scythe and gets pulled in the air — but only so she can kick Ruby flying, stressing her Aura upon landing even worse than the Aura stress Weiss and Penny experienced from being blown out of the air by Cinder.
- So, when I say Ruby's a mess, I'm not criticising. It's deliberate. She's so upset about Yang that she's overwhelmed beyond the capacity to fight properly.
- Ah, so Weiss raced off to help Ruby. And she feints with the sword so she can whack Neo with the Staff. Guess what the staff currently looks like? A royal sceptre. You know, just for extra queenly references. (No, I'm not going down the Great War route; the 'royal sceptre' the King of Vale was wielding in the WoR episode was green, implying it was the cane. I still think he used all four Relics to end the war, but I believe we've more or less been told how he used the Relic of Creation — it was to lift Atlas into the air so that one of the kingdoms that started the war could rediscover pride and hope and act as a beacon of hope to the rest of the world as well).
- And Neo gets knocked right through a portal. I have to admit it crossed my mind last week, but I was wondering if we'd see any shout out to the portal battles of Red Vs Blue: not just the infamous Tex fight, but also the Donut fight. I'm actually thinking the Donut fight is more translatable just because most of the doors will be in different locations across Atlas and Mantle, so I don't imagine people can bounce through all of the portals, just some of them.
- And we have confirmation that Cinder has been distracting the heroes so that Neo can fight Ruby. As soon as Cinder sees Neo go through a portal, she ups her game against Penny and Blake, immediately sending Blake flying over the edge.
- We haven't seen that floor portal explosion trick... I actually can't remember the last time we saw it. I last remember seeing it during Cinder's fight with Pyrrha, but I can't remember seeing it since. Has she used it since then?
- And Weiss sacrificing herself to save Ruby in a call-back to her doubles tournament fight when she threw herself and Flynt into a geyser. Stakes are a bit higher this time though and she wasn't thrown into the air last time.
- And Neo's back through a portal, looking more pissed off than she was before.
- Ruby can't wield her weapon one-handed. That's very clear. She's either going to lose the weapon or the Staff and, of course, it's the Staff. Unlike Weiss, Ruby doesn't seem particularly good at improvising weapon use. She really is over-specialised in Crescent Rose and little else.
- And Neo again didn't have to do much work to gain Relic Number Two.
- Ruby manages to land on a path, but it's Crescent Rose that tumbles into the void. Well, that gives us two possible scenarios:
- Ruby doesn't fall into the void, but her weapon did, so she's going to have to learn how to be a Huntress without her weapon for a while. The novels state that Theodore criticises Ozpin for not emphasising fighting with alternative weapons or no weapons enough, so Vacuo's a good place to improve unarmed combat.
- She does fall into the void, but ends up in a different location to her weapon and therefore still needs to go through growth by being weaponless.
- And Harriet's gone from full rage to Heroic BSoD.
- Oh, and Vine is going for the sacrifice to use his Aura to minimise the impact of the bomb.
- And that sends Harriet into full meltdown. Something tells me that Harriet is going to come out of this experience fanatically loyal to her team-mates from now on.
- Oh, and his Aura opens like a flower. I think it's the Udumbara legend that this is referring to. Theory folder for that.
- That is the power of Aura. It can contain a bomb. And, remember: It's Ozpin who has the brokenly powerful Aura. Not that we know what that means. The show has actually got his magic out of the way first before starting to explore his Aura. Which means his magic is more limited in scope than what he can do with Aura and Semblance, even if it isn't dependent on Aura running out.
- And Ruby actually gets vengeful enough to try and 'kill' Neo by shoving her off the ledge, which isn't a side of Ruby we normally see.
- And there goes Ruby's Aura.
- Oh, now that's a moment. Killing two birds with one stone, before Ruby can activate her silver eyes, with a stinging one-liner and grabbing both Relics to boot.
- Neo must be having a bit of déjà vu going on here given what happened to her in V3. But, the fall isn't going to kill these characters, so it'll be interesting to see what happens with Neo.
- And Penny breaks out a new attack move: Blakeball Special!
- It's not very effective!
- I must say. Cinder looks pretty damn awesome holding the staff in that get-up as she breaks Blake's ribbon. I've never been a fan of her costume but the two Relics definitely compliment it well. It's a shame the split-screen spoils the moment.
- And there goes Ruby and Blake. Only Weiss is left. At this point, it's pretty clear she'll fall. It's just a question of when.
- And Penny goes into an Heroic BSoD but there's no rest for the wicked because Weiss is determined to keep fighting with Blake's weapon. And I just realised that Yang is the only person who fell with her weapon. Ruby's weapon fell separately while Blake has only half her weapon — the sheath on her back because she barely uses it anymore and a burned ribbon. Perhaps this detour trip will address that.
- Looks like Jaune's reached his limit by sending Nora to recruit Huntsmen.
- They're standing outside the Vacuo gate. So, if he's sending Nora to Vacuo to get help, then help won't come from there. Nora won't be able to come back.
- Besides, the Huntsmen there have their hands full with a horde of Ravagers and a sandstorm. So, even if they could return, there aren't enough available Huntsmen to do so. Not without refugees dying.
- So, the only help that can come now is if Qrow, Robyn and Ace-Ops arrive. We don't know how Winter's doing against Ironwood right now.
- Oh, Cinder's getting all the digs in this episode. Now she's mocking Weiss for being the last team-mate standing.
- Hello. That's shock on Cinder's face. She did not plan to breathe fire at Weiss. She didn't even know she could do that (we knew because of the end of V7). That's her inner Grimm taking control. Why? I don't see anything in this fight, so I guess this is a sign that Salem's returned?
- And Jaune flies into the fray, Gravity shield first.
- And now Cinder's Grimm arm goes berserk. And, yes, it is indeed a sign that Salem has returned.
- Cinder seems quite pleased by that realisation. I guess she's feeling like Salem will be pleased with her achievements so far. All I can think of is... she used the third question, so how will Salem take that when she finds out?
- Cinder dividing the trio with fire. It's not like any of them bar Penny can do much about that. Weiss doesn't even have any Aura left. Jaune's abilities are ill-suited, except for his Gravity shield.
- God, Cinder's expression is manic.
- And, of course, she gets interrupted from stealing a second Maiden's power by Weiss, who is fighting Cinder without any Aura.
- Something that hadn't fully clicked with me before, but is clear here because we can see it: Cinder's Grimm arm is cutting through Aura to cause its damage and steal the Maiden power. Penny's Aura is visible just before Jaune starts activating his Semblance. Vernal hadn't lost her Aura either, thinking about it. It's very interesting that this arm is circumventing Aura in some fashion.
- Okay, looks like Penny's going for the sacrifice to protect the power, which she's been set up for since the first episode of V8 (offering to take the Staff to Salem), then Ruby telling her that taking the power protected Mantle (which sets up giving the power away to protect Mantle), and then asking Ruby to kill her so she could pass the power to her.
- The others are in Vacuo, Jaune. They can't come through the portal, and they've got a crisis of their own to deal with.
- And Weiss can't give you time, either. She has no Aura and no Semblance. She's fighting a Maiden. Who frankly should have killed her by now but is holding back because plot.
- And that's another theme that's been floating through both V7 and V8 — Penny doesn't get to make her own choices:
- Ironwood was telling her to protect, telling her not to socialise, that she couldn't have friends.
- Pietro was trying to keep her safe.
- Ruby was calling the shots when dealing with Ironwood trying to get Penny to come to him.
- Penny's option of taking the Staff and herself to Salem to save the kingdom was shot down.
- Maria ended up lampshading all of this when criticising Pietro.
- She had the choice of opening the Vault door taken from her because of the virus.
- She had the choice of how to be saved from the virus taken away from her.
- And now, here she is. Making a choice. To die.
- Now we know why there was a content warning at the start. It's not just a character dying. It's a character dying by assisted suicide.
- Anyway, Jaune is developing a pattern here: his last moments with Pyrrha before she died (neither present nor had active Semblance), Weiss's near-death in V5 (Semblance activation), Penny's situation here (both present and has Semblance, but she's not letting him use it).
- Is Jaune's sword about to get a power upgrade? If he stabs Penny the energy being, his sword's going to become a 'magical' sword (an energy sword at the very least). It's happens a lot in fantasy storytelling — someone transferring their life energy or magic or soul into a warrior's sword so that sword becomes something more than it used to be ever after. Jaune needs a spot in the theory folder.
- Well, at least Blake's weapon gets to follow her down.
- I guess the brief glimpse of Ironwood and Winter is to show us how the timelines match up.
- Oh, and there goes Winter's Aura, which means she is now screwed. Which probably means she's about to get the Maiden power. I kinda had my heart set on Nora even though it was plot problematic. Then again, I said that when Penny got the power, and I ended up liking Penny as the Maiden.
- Okay, Miles did a really bad job of that scream and sobbing, but Penny's death is going to haunt Jaune.
- But there's a parallel here for Penny and the Beacon arc. Theory folder.
- And Penny does indeed decide to 'return' the Maiden power to Winter. That does seem fitting. Winter wasn't ready for them in Volume 7 — she would have been taking them for the wrong reason and her heart wasn't in the right place. Now her heart is in the right place and she's broken free of Ironwood, so she can receive them for the right reason and in the right way.
- Penny gives a call back to Winter's comment in the V7 finale about Fria being a part of Penny now. But they've used this recurring 'part of you' theme really well in V8 to bring us full circle.
- Winter should now know that there's trouble either in the central location or in Vacuo, however.
- Anyway, Ironwood is trying to take credit for Winter becoming the Maiden. I wonder what Winter looked like at the moment of the transfer? Clearly something visible happened for Ironwood to make his destiny comment and yet he looks so surprised when she activates the Maiden power, as if he didn't know. The only thing I can think of is that he assumed she wouldn't turn that Maiden power on him and was shocked that she did so.
- Okay, these special effects for Winter are amazing. She's straight into an ice-tornado. And she's doing something we haven't seen Maidens really do before: levitating objects, in this case her swords. That's a nod to Penny, but we haven't really seen a Maiden levitating objects since Amber. Her eye-fire is almost identical in colour to Fria's. Both of them had ice-blue Auras.
- And Ironwood goes straight for the kill but gets it deflected back by a shield of ice. Consider how different that shield of ice is to Winter's glyphs. Ironwood blasted through a Hard Light cell like it was nothing. Winter's Semblance was stronger, but still didn't block all of the laser blast. Here, she's using magic, and it deflects his power without even a scratch. That's power levels for you. A well-trained Aura (Semblance) beats Dust, but magic beats both.
- And she's off to find Cinder.
- Cinder abandons Weiss, who is unconscious but conveniently not killed, to target Jaune for the crime of depriving her of her Maiden powers. She'll never forget who Jaune is again after this.
- Jaune's not so lost to grief and pain that he can't retaliate against Cinder. Good. Have we had our quota of deaths and disappearances yet?
- Okay, Jaune's weapon breaks in battle... where the blood is. That's rather Sword in the Stone. He's going to get a new weapon or a reforged upgrade. He might actually fall, too. Theory folder.
- Guess that answered your question, Cinder.
- Okay, is Winter creating the glyph of her Nevermore flock with her magic? Or did her Aura regenerate insanely fast?
- And Cinder is breathing fire again.
- Weiss and Jaune have the right idea. Get well away from fighting Maidens. Parallel to Beacon: Pyrrha helped Jaune leave while Cinder and Ozpin were standing off against each other.
- Oh, and Cinder sees an opportunity to distract Winter by targeting the Aura-less Weiss. She let Jaune and Pyrrha go in V3. I guess the constant Beacon parallels are getting too boring. Let's throw in some Haven parallels instead.
- I'd completely forgotten about Jaune's portable shields.
- And there goes Jaune's Aura.
- And there goes Weiss. Winter's scream isn't very good either. It sounds like she's crying 'Whine!" rather than "Weiss!" Anyway. That's all of Team RWBY through the looking glass.
- Jesus. Now that's the only scream that's been well done in these past two episodes.
- Is that Salem screaming? Or Something Else? Something connected to wherever Team RWBY, Neo and all those refugees have gone?
- Oh, and the realm starts collapsing the moment Cinder leaves. Did she just use the Staff? It would explain why it's 'instantaneous' — the audience was frozen in time like everything else because activating the Staff freezes time.
- And Jaune is indeed falling. He definitely needs a spot in the theory folder.
- Well, at least Winter saw enough to be able to report to the others.
- Meanwhile, Robyn, Qrow and Ace-Ops are going to have to fly to Vacuo.
- Poor Nora. You need to accept you can't get through and help the people right in front of you, Nora. She's completely ignoring the danger around her because all she can focus on is the danger Cinder represents.
- Which means the only people fighting the Grimm are Team ORE. And they're clearly about to be overwhelmed because the Happy Huntresses don't seem to be fighting. They're hanging around in the crowd by the portal. Seriously, ladies. There are people dying right in front of you and the portal is clearly impassable. Either you're helping, or you're baggage.
- And it's the Winter Maiden to the rescue. Hovering above the people it's her duty to protect. Everyone, the Kingdom of Atlas-Mantle may no longer have a physical kingdom, but they do now have an Ice Queen.
- Looks like we'll get to see the sulfurfish properly next volume.
- And Winter goes to town on the Grimm and the weather. Theory folder.
- So, Ironwood isn't dead.
- And Salem travels like black smoke. That's a shapeshifting form right there. So, I think I was right about the Branwen twins being clues that magic-users can shapeshift. However, Salem's shapeshifting is very much driven by her Grimm connection. At times, she seems more Grimm now than human. There are bits coming off the smoke, magenta and purple, like Ruby leaves petal contrails. Except these aren't petals. I'm not sure what they are, hence 'bits'.
- Oh, Cinder. Haven't you figured out yet that Salem knows everything you've done because that Grimm inside you reports to her?
- Anyway, these lies: she downplays her success (stating from the outset that she failed). She blames the heroes for saving thousands with the Staff (true), that Neo killed Ruby (false, but it was the original plan she hired Neo for), that Team RWBY used the lamp's final question (false), that the Maiden escaped because she was protecting the Relics (half-true).
- Ironwood's reactions are interesting. When he hears Cinder saying Neo killed Ruby, he begins shaking and starts gritting his teeth.
- Okay, the way Salem studies her as she talks and then says no cost is too great seems to me that Salem does know Cinder is lying, but doesn't care because she's got two Relics out of it, and she can wait for the questions to come around again. She's immortal, after all.
- But she also lies to Cinder: the reference to creating a new world means that Cinder doesn't know Salem's true end-game either. So, of Salem's remaining subordinates, Tyrian and Mercury know the truth and Cinder doesn't. Cinder is the only one who doesn't know. I wonder if Cinder will be as calm about Salem lying to her as Salem was about her own lying.
- I love how they completely ignore Ironwood was they walk past him. They can't even be bothered to kill him. What's the point? He's on a crashing city. He'll be dead soon anyway.
- Hm. So, it sounds like Salem knows how to use the Relic of Creation, given that she clearly knows that only one creation can exist at a time. And she'll know the password because Cinder will give it to her. So, we can look forward to Salem creating things now. It will be interesting to see how she handles Ambrosius' Exact Words clause.
- God, I completely forgot about Watts. Well, Cinder's ensured that he won't be able to reveal to Salem that she lied about Jinn. I knew Cinder wasn't complimenting him when she said he deserved this.
- I wonder if Cinder will tell Salem the Lamp's password? She claimed Team RWBY used it, so she could claim she doesn't know the password. That way, Jinn would never be able to reveal that Cinder asked the question.
- Still, can you imagine how 'pedestrian' Ambrosius would think creating fire would be? That's worse than floating a city.
- And Ironwood gets to live with his failure. Or, more accurately, die finally understanding just how completely he failed. Cinder's had some cracking lines this episode.
- I love the sound dampening for the crashing of Atlas into Mantle. And that we don't hear Qrow frantically screaming Ruby and Yang's names into his ear piece.
- Ah, so that's the reason why there such big lakes on the outskirts of the kingdom, they'd dammed up the area to create the kingdom, and a lot of the tundra surrounding the city is iced-over water. The earthquakes caused by the crash landing would breach the dam and bring the water back.
- Well, there's nothing like the cleansing power of water to wash away the sins of the past. Or hide them.
- The world now officially has three kingdoms. I see now why they wanted this volume to cover only two days. Atlas-Mantle will become the Lost Kingdom of Remnant. The Kingdom that drowned beneath the waters because of its own hubris. Remnant's equivalent to Atlantis — Atlantis was named after Atlas, too. And it fell in a day and a night.
- In terms of what's happened to Atlas and Mantle, this is a 'win' for both sides.
- For Salem, she has two Relics; she knows how to use at least one of them (Creation). She wants Ozpin to see her destroy absolutely everything he created, everything he built, before the world ends. So, it's important for her to destroy the Academies and kingdoms. She doesn't care if people are alive or dead when the gods come, she only needs them divided.
- For the heroes, while they've lost two Relics, Team RWBY, Jaune and Penny, most of those are still alive. While they've lost the kingdom, saving the people is more important than saving the infrastructure, and they saved thousands of lives. They also kept the Maiden power from Cinder. And, as I said in a previous episode, everywhere in the background we see little seeds of unity sprouting whenever Salem's laid waste — like the racist human family becoming so united with the Fox Faunus family and Uncle Brock. So, there is hope on the heroes' side.
- This does not, of course, include the current situation the heroes are now in.
- The final word of the episode: Checkmate. My guess is that 'Checkmate' is the true title of the episode and 'The Final Word' is just the crossword puzzle clue to obtaining it.
- And there is a stinger this year. Theory folder for that.
- Remember CRWBY interviews years ago back in Volume 1 or 2 when Monty, Miles and Kerry said there was a beach episode planned? The creators did say that the V9 'detour' was planned even before V1 aired. Where are we in the stinger? On a beach.
- The opening shot of the episode.
- The whale still disintegrating away is such a good mood setter for the episode. There's still that soft pink sky in the background to give it a somewhat mystical air, but in the foreground is utter ruination.
- There is so much ash from the whale that it looks like smog, giving the foreground a filthy, polluted atmosphere. Added to that is all the black ooze, some from the mouth when it was producing Grimm, but the rest from its inside, complete with the red tendrils, which somehow creates more squick than if it had been blood. It gives the foreground a really toxic look.
- And bringing it all together is the rib-cage, sticking out of all the smog, but white and just catching the evening sunlight here and there make them stand out and give the whole thing that 3D finish.
- Salem's regeneration.
- The close-up shows inside the whale, where we see the contrast between light and darkness all the more clearly: the toxic remains of the whale carcass, the filthy smog in the background and, again in between, the white ribs, catching all of the light.
- Right in the foreground, in the darkest portion is the darkest event of all: Salem looks and moves like liquid fire, and crackles like a bonfire. Smoke flows across the ground to be absorbed into that central 'form'. It's such a contrast with other fire motif we have in the show: Yang's hair, which is all sunny, yellow and full of brightness whenever she activates her Semblance.
- It's a good nod to what was happening to her when Oscar activated his cane: she was in the process of being burned alive by Hazel. Here, it's as if she continues to burn without reprieve for as long it takes to regenerate. As if she's been forced to burn for hours until she has fully recovered.
- It's as if Oscar stretched out the experience for her. The fandom speculated that it took her hours to reform from Hazel because she made that choice. It helped break him, and that's what she was aiming for. Here, she has no reason to delay regeneration and every reason to regenerate as fast as she can. Yet here she is, hours later, still regenerating.
- It did look like everyone and everything were slowing down as the cane exploded, and then speeded up to normal as the power moved on and dissipated. It was most visible with Ace-Ops and Weiss's falling tray. If Oscar did distort time with that explosion, then Salem is not just 'burning' while regenerating, but taking even longer than she wants. Meaning that Oscar's effectively stretched out the experience of being burned alive for as long as possible.
- And, of course, in the entire scene, there is no sign of Hazel's body anywhere at all. It's completely gone.
- The visual depiction of Vine's Semblance extending from inside the airship like a flower to wrap around the ship is a really nice touch. I'll discuss that more in the theory folder. But, after all the ugliness that just happened over what Harriet was going to do and that it cost Vine's life to fix, them flying off into the soft, pink, beautiful landscape is a real contrast between the ugliness of human behaviour and beauty, innocence and timelessness of the environment in which it happens.
- The Stinger imagery is very interesting.
- Crescent Rose:
- Does anyone else get a Planet of the Apes (1968) vibe from the sight of Crescent Rose sticking out the sand, blade partially buried?
- By that, I mean the opening credits ended on Crescent Rose, standing alone, blade in the ice on the tundra. Now the weapon is in the same position, but its blade is partially buried in the sand.
- It's like the ending of the original Planet of the Apes, with that iconic shot half buried in sand.
- The landscape:
- The water is golden and the sand has a reddish hue, which matches the hue of the cliff behind it. That's a rather realistic continuity considering the 'unreality' of the scene.
- In between the beach and the cliff is a very cultivated-looking grassy area filled with curly palm-style tree-like plants that tend to be a classic when depicting Alice in Wonderland style settings. They're on top of the cliff underneath the tree, too.
- There are plants around them, including orange ones that rise out of the ground with that distinctive triangular appearance of the flowers that were in the Vault of the Winter Maiden. I expect there to be a connection.
- The plants are either small or the shells are large (I lean towards a bit of both, given that the plants look small at the top of the cliff by the tree). As in bigger than murex shells. In any other show, being that white would mean 'bleached' or 'fossil'. In this show, it's more likely to mean 'Grimm' connected. Except this is likely to be a far weirder experience than something as 'normal' as Grimm.
- And that leaves us with the tree. With its oak- or willow-influenced bark and dark trunk features and that canopy which tends to be a rather stereotypical 'oak' look to it. The trouble is, it's probably more likely to be intended to be a willow, given the fact it seems to have desert mistletoe on it, which grows on desert willow (the depicted tree, for the record, is not what desert willows look like). And that has all sorts of implications. Which is what the theory folder is for.
- Overall, at first glance, it looks like a coastal scene, but the cultivated look of the grass line makes me wonder if we're actually dealing with a lake or an oasis instead. I'm keeping an open mind on that front.
- Crescent Rose:
- I really do like CRWBY's decision to stick with the soft pinks for the sky and tundra appearance. The palette really does make the important characters pop in the foreground, where all the action is taking place. Seeing it through the back of the airship when we first visit Qrow and Harriet really did make the pair stand out against it.
- There is no doubt about it. Winter's ice tornado looks stunning. In fact, she looks stunning as the Winter Maiden. I think she might just be the most visually impressive Maiden we've seen. Yes, Cinder and Fria both pulled off massive outbursts of power (V3 and V7 respectively), but Winter makes it look elegant and graceful.
- I love the near silence of Atlas' landing, done to soft music to give it a sense of pathos. That was really well done.
- Tiny visual details: the long-shot of Atlas coming down to land. We can just see smoke billowing where tail off the whale once was. So, even in the long-shot, we can see the disintegration smoke still billowing. That's some very nice continuity detail.
- I didn't think it was a good look last episode, but it wasn't bad enough for me to comment on it, but watching Penny on the Queen Lancer... her bare-legged look really is terrible. It doesn't suit her at all.
- Okay, that camera zoom into Cinder when she lands after knocking Penny and Weiss off the Queen Lancer avatar is... weird. The head move, the eye opening, the grin. It's all completely off in timing. I'm not sure what they were going for there as a result. It doesn't work.
- When Qrow is telling Harriet she's making a mistake, I'm really not feeling his voice. He sounds like he's losing his voice because of a sore throat.
- I'm not impressed with Ruby's spinning weapon throw and speed-chase to catch it on the other side of her opponent. It looks slow and clunky and far too easy for her opponent to identify what the move is and block it, or even intercept it. As it is, Neo's completely casual 'are you even trying?' turn makes it worse. It very much telegraphs her ability to intercept it if only she could be bothered.
- Vine's Semblance
- Vine produces 'tentacles' which quickly become petals and fold backwards to encase the entire airship in his Aura.
- In the ancient texts, the flowers of the udumbara are hidden inside the fruit. So, the tree never seems to flower. Once, every three thousand years, a flower bursts through the fruit and spreads its petals.
- The udumbara flowering therefore symbolises something extremely rare and precious. So, the flower is said to be able to save the lives of the dying.
- The udumbara is related to the fig and description of its legendary flowering is semi-related to fig flowers, a 'fig' is basically a group of inverted flowers. It's a receptacle where flowers grow on the inside. Later on, the fruit will grow here, too. But it is very much a plant whose flowers are hidden inside the 'fig'.
- The way his Aura splits, opens and curls back is very like a spider lily, which is a flower associated with death, resurrection and guiding the dead through reincarnation.
- There's a legend that if spider lilies bloom when you see someone, you will never see them again in this life.
- In the Aesop's fable (the Elm and the Vine), the most commonly understood moral of the tale is a marriage-based bond. However, older traditions and variations on the story regard it as a moral about undying friendship, specifically, friendship that continues beyond death.
- Ruby and Blake disappearing (and everyone else):
- Disappearing into golden light is how the God of Light dissipates in Jinn's vision.
- It's also how he sends the resurrected Ozma back to the afterlife. When the God of Darkness kills humans, they turn to black ash. Ozma disintegrates into golden ash/orbs.
- So, the golden orbs and light that's part of Ambrosius' magic is very much from the God of Light. That means the way everyone disintegrates when falling from the realm is also connected.
- Jaune's development:
- He's almost certainly got both character development and weapon upgrades in his future (although I suspect weapons upgrades will be occurring for Team RWBY, too).
- I mentioned the possibility of Jaune ending up with a magic sword. Here are just a few reasons why.
- Crocea Mors (the main inspiration for Jaune's sword) was believed to be a sword with supernatural powers. It reflected the light of the sun and, once swung, would kill whomever it cut. The sword is said to have been forged by Vulcan, the Roman god of destructive fire; he also became the god of metalworking and the constructive fires of the forge through his Greek counterpart, Hephaestus. What's less well-known about Vulcan (but which is very relevant right now) is that he was also god of the desert (the Roman explanation for why deserts were so dangerously hot).
- Gram, the sword of Sigurd. It was originally wielded by his father until it broke in battle. It was eventually reforged into something so sharp and durable that it could cleave anvils in half without damage. The sword's Norse name means 'Wrath' (in modern German, it means 'grief'). It was wielded by Sigurd against the dragon Fafnir, and was the only sword that could defeat the dragon. The sword came from Odin. He placed it in a tree called Barnstokkr (that is sometimes associated with Yggdrasil, the world tree). Only the person who could pull it out could wield it, which was Sigmund. I mention it here, but I actually think Gram is a candidate (along with Excalibur) for influencing the Relic of Destruction. Put it this way, if the Relic of Destruction is in a plinth or in water, the primary inspiration is Excalibur; if it's in a tree (and tree themes are definitely cropping up with Vacuo a lot now), the primary inspiration will be Gram. If it's associated with a stone/plinth or water but has a name that's associated with grief or rage, it'll be a mixture of both.
- Excalibur, a very muddled myth of a sword. The Sword in the Stone was the proof of Arthur's royal lineage. He wielded it until it broke in battle. That's when he received Excalibur from the Lady in the Lake, on a couple of conditions, one of which was that he returned it there when he no longer needed it anymore (he couldn't pass it on to others). Some of the oldest legends have the Sword in the Stone (really, a sword in an anvil on top of a stone) and Excalibur be the same sword. Then they became separate swords, and the anvil disappeared from the story entirely. More modern Arthurian influences tend to conflate the sword in the stone and Excalibur, but not in a way that's conscious of the very earliest legends. Excalibur's abilities include it being an unbreakable sword, it made its wielder unstoppable on the battlefield (able to slaughter entire armies of men), and it could cleave anything with a single hit. Whenever it was first drawn, it would release an intense light that would blind the enemy. The sheath was more powerful than the sword, making the wielder invincible — as long as he carried the sheath, he could not be injured.
- Caladbolg, another sword with a very muddled myth. It has variously been Caladfwlch (Excalibur), the sword of Fergus mac Róich or of Fergus mac Léti. Its abilities were very similar to Excalibur's. There was no shining light, but it enabled its wielder to slay entire armies and it could blast the tops off mountains by using the 'Three Great Strokes'. Caladbolg and Caladfwlch have the same translation (Irish and Welsh for 'hard cleft'), which doesn't help the confusion.
- In Celtic tradition, the special swords of heroes will always be forged in other worlds and always had to be returned to their source. Returning Excalibur to the Lady of the Lake rests on this tradition. The Lady of the Lake also gave Sir Gawain his sword, same rules. In Norse tradition, the special swords came from the gods or were forged by smiths with special gifts that were blessing from gods (such as Regin reforging Gram, which came from Odin). This is not unique to Celtic and Norse traditions; special weapons right around the world are often other worldly in origin, being forged in other realms, by non-human beings or gods, gifted to great heroes either as a blessing or a curse. Sometimes the weapon can be passed down the hero's lineage, sometimes it has to be returned from whence it came, and sometimes it breaks with the death of its wielder, or the last battle of its wielder, and cannot be reforged by normal means — it needs otherworldly reforging and only for the next hero who is destined to wield that sword.
- In storytelling tradition, it's very common for a character to start off using an ordinary sword that eventually gets broken in battle. It then undergoes some kind of magical reforging — either a magical character sacrifices their life to reforge the blade, or it gets reforged by a supernatural smith of some kind, which imbues the blade with abilities it didn't previously have. Sometimes, the sword doesn't break but the swordsman is falling behind in terms of the threat level of the story — especially if there are powers and abilities and magic that everyone else has — so a magical character, often in the process of sacrificing their own life, imbues the blade with their own magic as they die — for the hero to have to stab them to do this, or 'sheath' the sword in the ground soaked by their blood, is one common method of doing this. To give one example, the Sword of Leah undergoes this process twice: the first time, it is imbued with the magic of the Druids by 'sheathing' in the mystical lake Hadeshorn; later, it's reforged after breaking by 'sheathing' it in the earth that is being transformed by the sacrifice of a magical being.
- Almost all of this can apply to the Relic of Destruction as well. Given that this Relic is a sword, we're probably looking at one of the sword-users among the heroes wielding it. While I would expect Ruby to 'ask' of it something (she seems like she's going to be the one who activates all four Relics), it makes more sense that it be either Weiss, Blake or Jaune who uses the Relic, as they're the sword-wielders. Given that Jaune is a Paladin in concept, he seems to fit the concept better. Especially since his abilities are best suited to protection and building up others. Wielding a force of 'destruction' is counter to that and seems right. I've been saying for a long time now that I think the Relic of Destruction is going to be accompanied by the symbolism of 'not wanting to be used'. Killing Penny puts Jaune on a path towards not wanting to use power unless there's absolutely no choice, especially if it's destructive power: Ozpin died, after trying to get Pyrrha and Jaune away from danger, because he stood between Cinder and power; Pyrrha died, after mimicking Ozpin by getting Jaune away from danger, because she stood alone between Cinder and power (in this case the CCT); Weiss almost died because (for a moment) Jaune's Death Seeker behaviour stood between Cinder and power; Penny died because Jaune's ability to do what must be done stood between Cinder and power. This is turning into a pattern for Jaune, where his involvement in Cinder's pursuit of power began as peripheral but has gradually become more and more central with every occurrence until now, where he has been the primary cause of Cinder failing to obtain power she's after.
- This means Cinder's primary two blocks to her ability to gain more power is Ruby (a threat to the power she has) and Jaune (a barrier to future power). That's in keeping with their abilities: Ruby is a very powerful offensive force, an invasive threat that represents what can be done to Cinder; Jaune is an increasingly effective defensive force, a passive threat that represents what Cinder can be prevented from doing.
- Besides, in both Celtic and Norse traditions, when a hero gets an otherworldly blade or a blade reforged through otherworldly means, it generally means there's an extremely powerful 'monster' that needs to be slain by that sword. Often (but not always, especially in Celtic traditions) a dragon. Who's increasingly breathing fire from the mouth these days?
- Winter and the refugees (Volume 9):
- I'm expecting the refugees to be the desert and not close to the city. They will have to trek through the desert, facing Grimm and mole crabs, and whatever else the desert throws at them.
- This will enable them to be the secondary storyline to what's going on in the void, as it'll be a relatively uncomplicated storyline: keep the refugees safe and alive while walking... somewhere. The Winter Maiden will be the Protector of Atlas and Mantle, their nominal leader, and even capable of protecting them against heatstroke since she can cool the temperatures they're dealing with.
- Meanwhile, they'd probably need to rely on Ozpin's knowledge of Vacuo to try and get to the city.
- Team ORE + Nora gives us Team OLVE (or OLEV, I prefer OLVE — either way, it's Team Olive now).
- Yes, I've put Oscar first. I don't have such a problem with a temporary team that's missing the two established leaders (Ruby and Jaune). And Oscar was usually being visually placed in a leadership position (foreground, closest to the camera, or central in the frame). It would be nice to see Ren or Nora in charge, and ideally it would be that way around since they're part of the original team, but it does feel like Oscar's being set up as temporary leader in the absence of Ruby.
- That said, I expect Winter to be the Atlas-Mantle leader in terms of protection. We've effectively got three groups: the refugees (who might have subgroup issues initially between those who are from Mantle and those who are from Atlas, although I expect that to ease over time, as was shown in the background between the Mantle and slums groups); the Happy Huntresses; and Team OLVE. So, protection of the refugees will be coordinated between Winter, Team OLVE and the Happy Huntresses. I expect Whitley to come to the fore as the 'civilian' leader of the refugees. My gut instinct is that he's heading down an engineering route, like his grandfather. Which is why I've joked in the past about him becoming Pietro's apprentice.
- Speaking of which, Amity may turn up at Vacuo at some point when people expect it least, depending on what's going on with Pietro, Maria and the thruster issue. They didn't have time to address it for the broadcast, but that doesn't mean they can't potentially patch it given a bit more time.
- Qrow and Robyn
- It frankly looks like Team RWBY didn't think of saving the military. Only civilians were given doors. There were no doors in Central Command, and no military has come through the portals. So, Team RWBY has basically left the entire military behind to die.
- So, what did happen to the ground troops? Did they all die? Or were they evacuated into military ships? There is still a fleet of ships, however. They haven't come through the portals either.
- My theory is that they may have been evacuated into military ships, and now the surviving fleet will follow Robyn's airship to Vacuo. So, Vacuo will end up with both refugee civilians and military, both — but at least there will be a military available for continued fights against Salem.
- It's actually possibly they could arrive at Shade Academy before the other refugees, if the portal opened into the desert rather than the city outskirts. So, at least Theodore will be up-to-date by the time the group arrives, and we don't need to waste much on-screen time with running through catch-ups. I do expect Theodore and Rumpole to be pissed off with Ozpin and the entire city to be resentful of the problem that's just been dumped on them. Not simply because the novels have warned us that Vacuo has a problem with the other kingdoms, but because this crisis would be a massive impact on any city.
- Penny's death: Beacon Parallels
- I've been going on a lot this volume about the parallels between Penny and Oscar. Right down to their eyes turning gold when someone is allowed to take control of them.
- Yes, Penny said in V7 it would be just like Beacon again, and yes, a second redhead has died, and Jaune has been left sobbing on both occasions (although for slightly different reasons). That's too obvious a parallel to dwell on.
- And, yes, the fandom once learned that Jaune was originally going to get Pyrrha killed, but they changed their minds. Now, he gets Penny killed. Indeed, does the job himself. But I don't think that's the main point either.
- Also, remember the fandom ribbing Jaune for turning his back for a moment, allowing Cinder to get into position to kill Amber without anyone noticing until it's too late. Well, now the situation is reversed: it's Cinder who turns her back for a moment, allowing Jaune to get into position to kill Penny without anyone noticing until it's too late.
- Most importantly, I'm the one who's been banging on for years about Ozpin throwing the fight against Cinder, to voluntarily die.
- As I keep saying, my theory is that he sacrificed his life to ensure Cinder didn't get both the Maiden power and the Relic. Since she had the Maiden power, his sacrifice kept the Relic out of her reach.
- Here, Penny is doing the same thing in reverse. Cinder has the Relic, so Penny's sacrifice keeps the Maiden power out of her reach.
- She uses the exact same reasoning I've been using for my Ozpin theory: If Cinder has the one, the heroes cannot afford to let her obtain both.
- The Beacon Relic has been discussed in this volume. The exchange between Salem and Oscar reminds us that the Beacon Relic is still hidden, that Ozpin did something unusual, and no-one except Ozpin knows what that is. Not even Oscar. Now Penny's doing a sacrifice to make sure Cinder doesn't gain both the Winter Relic and the Winter Maiden power.
- Penny's death: Oscar/Ozpin/Ozma parallels
- Fria was the first time we saw a natural Maiden transfer when two people were together. This is the first time we see a natural Maiden transfer when two people are in different locations. It happens in a way that mimics the God of Light's meeting with Ozma just before Ozma was reincarnated.
- This is another sign of how the Maiden power seems to have remained linked to Ozma's reincarnation cycle, and therefore may remain more linked to him than anyone knows.
- If so, what does this say about Ozpin's own reincarnation? I've wondered this before, but is Ozma able to choose a host by thinking of an eligible boy as he dies, and therefore goes through this void meeting? Does he refuse to do choose, which is why his reincarnations seem to be in random people all the time? It's strange for the Maiden power to be so completely linked to Ozma's reincarnation cycle and not be giving us some clues to Ozma's own reincarnation process. Does this mean that Ozma can meet his new host in this realm?
- I've already said that I think Penny's transformation is a clue about Ozma's reincarnation because she was left as a soul without a body, which is the same situation Ozma is in. They both have a soul, Aura and memories that are retained in the world of the living, but they have no physical body in which to contain it.
- Ambrosius had no idea what the outcome of his creation would be. He had no idea what Penny would become. And her robot body has indicated to us that she's some kind of energy being as her Aura contained... nothing. There was no physical body underneath. We therefore have no idea what death will mean for her.
- The Maiden power follows Ozma's reincarnation cycle even though it's separated from Ozma. Penny is the only other being who is even close to Ozma's state of being and she was carrying this when Ambrosius carried out the request.
- When she talks to Winter, they're both in the void. Penny is actually there first, waiting for Winter to show up. It's the same thing for Ozma was for his pre-reincarnation chat with the God of Light. The God of Light only showed up after Ozma arrived.
- The God of Light said this place was between realms. Does that mean it's between the realm of the living and the dead? If so, is this a place where neither life nor death exist as we understand it to work in the living world? What does it mean for someone like Penny to 'die' in a place that seems to lie between life and death? Not just for Penny, but for everyone else who's trapped there right now.
- What does it mean for a unique being who is a soul without a body, who seems to be made of Aura, to sustain a fatal wound in a place that exists somewhere between life and death? What are the rules on death in this place? We know it can't loophole the rule of not bringing people back from the dead otherwise Ozma and Penny could have been resurrected that way. They weren't. The rule remained intact.
- When Penny exchanges Aura with Winter, her Aura is neither green (her colour) or pale blue (Winter's). This is unlike Fria, who passed the power through a light blue Aura transfer. Instead, the Aura is gold. The colour of the God of Light.
- The transfer then happens in the same way as the silver eyes and Ozpin's cane. A bright light that whites out the screen. However, before it fully whites out, we see Penny fading away. Except she doesn't fade away. She fades into Winter.
- While the Maiden power doesn't seem to function like Ozma's reincarnation in full (Maidens do not hear the voice of the previous Maiden of their season). Penny is basically mimicking Ozma's full reincarnation. The power doesn't simply engage in an Aura transfer (as we saw with Fria). The whole of Penny transfers to Winter. In golden light.
- The ultimate path for someone who has been a Ozma parallel to this degree is to become the equivalent of Ozma in Oscar's head: Penny, inside Winter's head. But, if this follows through to its natural conclusion, that means Winter should pick up some of Penny's abilities (or at least way of doing things) — if not as completely as Oscar's situation, then at least to some degree.
- There is one other option:
- That Penny can recreate her body because her body mimicked a real human body but was an energy form.
- Her energy has been disrupted and the Maiden power has passed on because she went through 'death', but she 'reincarnates' into her own body, one of her soul's own making.
- So, instead of reincarnating into a living person like Ozma does, she creates herself as a living person for her to reincarnate into. She's reincarnating into herself.
- If so, she may not have the Maiden power any more but she does have her robot abilities. When Team RWBY asked for Penny's new self, they asked for whatever was part of her soul. Now, Penny's robot abilities may have been part of the robot body, but they were also part of her identity. They made her Penny.
- We can see that in the fight against Cinder. Penny instinctively activates her swords, only to find she has no swords. She has no robot body to bring forth robot swords. So, she manifests them, and they take the same form as her Aura — energy with no physical form underneath. And they are created using Aura pieces coming together — the reverse of a shattering Aura. Also, when she initially uses the Maiden fire in a similar manner to her robot thrusters: she hesitates then gently bobs down to a landing.
- So, I would expect these abilities to be part of her soul, her identity. At the very least, the swords seem like they might be her Semblance. So, I wouldn't expect her to lose the swords even if she lost everything else.
- The Stinger
- We are well and truly past the looking glass. The environment reminds me of Tweedledum and Tweedledee's long poem in Through the Looking Glass..., which is set on a beach. I don't recall any beach references in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Given that the portals were mirrors and reaching this realm requires falling through an abyss, I'd say we're looking at themes and elements from both books, rather than just one or the other.
- The orange plants are reminiscent of the white, blue and gold plants of the Vault, which implies Ozma may have some familiarity with this realm. Once Winter has told them what's happened, I won't be surprised if Ozpin knows they're not dead, but also knows they're in trouble only they can rescue themselves from.
- The tree:
- I've mentioned in the visuals folder that the tree is a rather typical oak design for animation/art, but is more likely to be a willow, given that it has desert mistletoe hanging from it. While oak trees are famous in legend for the idea that druids harvested mistletoe with golden sickles from them, oak mistletoe is rare. It's much more common to find it on other species such as willow. It's very common on willow. However, it tends to ball up, like a round nest, rather than dangle as it's doing in the Stinger. Desert mistletoe dangles like that, and it grows on desert willow.
- I've mentioned desert willow in the past: when the novel RWBY: Before the Dawn first came out, Sun imagines a tree with leaves that seem to shine like gold. But no-one else can see it, and he has never been able to forget it. Now it forms the basis of his Semblance activation because of how unusually vivid that memory has remained to this day. There's obviously something mystical going on there and my first thought at the time was that this is linked to the golden trees that formed the central altar in the Domain of Light and which the tree in the Vault of the Spring Maiden appears to be inspired by.
- This tree has some interesting colours built into its texture, including areas where it almost seems to lean towards a gold sheen and areas where it becomes violet, and a few others in between. Desert willows have leaves that are the bright shade of green that, when caught in the light just right, have a slight 'gold' tinge to them.
- There's obviously some 'world tree' vibes going on with this tree, as there are for Sun's image, the God of Light's tree and the tree in the Vault of the Spring Maiden. There are an awful lot of cultures around the world that have 'world tree' concepts — some directly, some indirectly. Even the Bible has the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge. One of the first trees in this fandom are likely to think of is the Norse tree, Yggdrasil. Yggdrasil is an ash tree, and isn't the only tree of significance in Norse tradition, although most other significant trees tend to have some kind of relationship, even if only symbolic, to Yggdrasil — for example, the tree in which the sword Gram is buried by Odin, waiting for the single person who can pull it free. Another example is Glasir, a tree with golden leaves that grows by the doors to the hall of Valhalla.
- Among other things, Yggdrasil has three roots that go to three places: two wells and a spring (Mimisbrunner, Urdarbrunner/Urtharbrunner, and Hvergelmir), all though all can be described as wells, springs or lakes. And this tree, of course, is by what looks like a coastal beach, but which could be a lake beach for all we know. However, the different tales describe the roots as going to different places (the realms of the dead, humanity and jotnar or the realms of the gods, primal ice where Hel was once cast, and jotnar). The latter comes from the writings of Snorri, which can be a bit questionable.
- However, one reference is worth mentioning because of the colour of the water, which is golden. In Through the Looking-Glass, And What Alice Found There, Tweedledum and Tweedledee cite a long poem. The setting is a beach, where the sun is shining on the sea in the middle of the night. What little we see of the sky has the purple tones of sunset, but if this is a Wonderland-inspired realm, then it may not mean sunset at all. It might be a genuinely purple sky. Or, we might not see much of the sky because what's in the sky is a moon instead of a sun.
- Anyway, one thing to bear in mind about Yggdrasil is that it does have some darker imagery associated with it, which is the source of its name. It was the place where Odin was hanged for nine days and nights to obtain wisdom and knowledge, which allowed him to become a seidr, a role typically held by women (and Odin did have emasculation insults hurled his way for his 'women's craft'). The eye he sacrificed was to Mimisbrunner (the well near the land of the frost jotnar), so that he could drink from its waters of wisdom.
- Yggdrasil itself was set in loam; clay loam soils will often be the same colour as the cliff in the stinger, but Yggdrasil's loam tends to be shining white; Urdarbrunner was in the lands of the gods (well, the Aesir, at least) and associated with the three maidens of knowledge, the Norns (one of whom was called Urdr), who shaped the lives of humans; anyone who enters these waters will have their skin turned white as bone.
- Hvergelmir was associated with Niflneim, the world of mist, frost and ice. In the Gylfaginning, Hel was cast into there by Odin and given power over the nine worlds: when the dead came to her, she could apportion them between the worlds as she saw fit. In Hvergelmir, were many serpents and the dragon Nidhoggr, who gnaws on the roots of Yggdrasil and also on the corpses of the truly damned (comparisons between Nidhoggr and the God of Darkness can wait for another day).
- While we're at it, I'll briefly mention the primordial void, Ginnungagap, from which all things come. It is cold in the north (thanks to spillover from Niflheim) and hot in the south (thanks to sparks from the realm of fire, Muspelheim). Creation happens in the middle, where the cold and heat meet. The void itself is charged, but with magic rather than electricity.
- Yggdrasil is at the centre of the cosmos, touching everything, and it will start shaking the day Ragnarok comes. The tree itself is, among other things, a symbol of suffering, because it's constantly being gnawed on at the roots, leaves and branches by various beings and animals.
- And, having said all that, I don't think this tree is going to be solely inspired by Yggdrasil. I think there's more going on here, given the Lewis Carroll influences.
- This is going to be a journey of the self. That's what the opening credits meant. I've mentioned several times that the defining thing driving them was placed in the defining thing that identified them: Summer's grave on Ruby's cloak; Weiss's training to get stronger over her heart; Blake's decision to leave the White Fang over her blades; Yang at the family's home training field over her hair.
- They will probably see people from their past (including dead people), but in ways that aren't quite 'real' or 'right' because they'll represent things about themselves that they need to recognise, confront, understand and work through.
- There will be a way out from the very beginning, but they won't know that because they won't be ready for the way out... as Yang said to Ambrosius, you can find your way in and out of the Void if you know how to do it. That's the key. There will always be a way out, but there won't necessarily be the right comprehension to get out.
- So, this is a journey through the soul. It will either destroy them or better them, but they will not return as the people they were. They will be changed.
- This will be an opportunity to learn more about the void, possibly the gods, and basically learn more about Remnant and humanity's situation.
- There may be the opportunity to save people who fell from the bridges when Cinder attacked, depending on what the heroes go through.
- Meanwhile, Vacuo will be the journey to find the city and keep the refugees. They'll deal with Grimm and mole crabs along the way, starvation and thirst, lack of Dust for the Huntsmen, heat and lack of shade (the Winter Maiden may be able to help with some of this).
- The Schnee family will come into their own. Klein is a doctor; Willow will have no access to alcohol so she's going to start going through withdrawal; Whitley will come into his own considering the fact he was showing hints that data science and engineering are going to be his forte — he'll probably be helping create shelters, and protection and, once in refugee camps, he may be able to structure the camps to be efficient in terms of resource use and sharing. In short, if Winter's the overall leader, then Whitley will effectively become the civilian leader, working with Fiona to organise the survival of the refugees.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 1st 2021 at 11:41:27 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.If your theory is true Wyld, I'll take back my issues with Penny's death since it will mean we won't be losing her! Hooray for Penny!
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.Re: Jaune's sword, I'm inclined to think he might ditch it entirely. Joan of Arc was not a great warrior - she was an inspiring one, who never killed a man, and preferred her banner to her sword.
While Jaune is paladin-themed, his character arc has been mostly about embracing defense much more than offense. In many ways, he is the complete opposite of what most fantasy narratives have their male heroes be.
Early on he learns to open up emotionally and confess his secrets to his team, accept training from Pyrrha, and even not shy away from femininity; the two times he has used Crocea Mors' greatsword mode, it wasn't much good; here in the Atlas arc he primarily upgraded his shield, and got a few cool hard light gadgets to act as barriers. And, of course, most blatantly, his Semblance is healing and empowering.
Ditching most of the sword (a weapon explicitly said to have been used in the Great War, and now used to essentially euthanize someone) and reworking it into a banner wouldn't be that much of a stretch.
In addition to all this, I've seen a few people speculating that Jaune being involved in the process suggests at something. Like, his Semblance boosts other people's Auras - their souls. What does that add onto the equation, to Penny, who is ambiguously human and dying in a weird in-between place? Would Penny even know or guess at this? She certainly learned a lot about Ruby's Semblance from observation alone, is there something similar here with Jaune's?
It's stuff like this that makes me want to give CRWBY the benefit of the doubt.
Edited by Crinias on Apr 1st 2021 at 6:04:33 AM
I really don't understand the merits of having another Ozpin/Oscar situation play out for Winter, a character who has barely any presence in the story other than Volume 7 and 8.
I'd rather spend time in Volume 9 focusing in Wonderland and having Ren, Nora, Oscar and Winter manage the Atlesian refugees rather than to waste time removing all of the tragic + dramatic potential of the previous volume.
I think this theory trying to save Penny is shaky and flies in the face of themes of RWBY. Penny enveloped in a bright golden light means that she's somehow been blessed by the Go L? Or that she's somehow ended up as another Ozma? (Even though that breaks the rules the Go L set for the world, and only specifically made an exception to Ozma out of their own magic).
Why not just assume that the Golden Light is just Penny ascending to RWBY-Afterlife, which we know is canon? Why not apply Occam's Razor: When a maiden dies, they transfer their powers to another female. There's no mention of transferral of consciousness or identity. Penny fading away before exploding in a bright gold light? That's her leaving to the afterlife. Penny's body disappearing at the very end of the episode? If there wasn't any focus given to Penny's body, why assume that she disappeared? Her corpse could have rolled off the platform and into the void, it could have been an animation oversight, etc.
Beyond just the logical doubts, I must re-iterate the story-writing problems that this sort of twist would incur. Reversing her death and putting her in Winter's head does nothing to move the story forward, and only makes our characters spend more time wasted on trying to get Penny back.
I understand what it is like to desperately wish there is more to a character. I was there with Pyrrha. A lot of people were there with Clover. Or Watts. Or Hazel. It's a stretch to think that Penny deserves different treatment all of these other characters. There is nothing indicating Penny's death is a fakeout, it is more conclusory and final than any other death we've had in RWBY. She even has one last scene with Winter to provide her character complete closure. If only other characters were so lucky.
Having a character exist in a fighting series only to not fight is... interesting. Shikamaru was a strategist and still took charge in fights. Sakura was a healer and yet still had significant power in fights.
What you're advocating is for Jaune to become the Hiroto Honda of the story. I don't think that's a good fate for a character, or a rewarding one.
Edited by mach56gs on Apr 1st 2021 at 3:13:10 AM
What you're advocating is for Jaune to become the Hiroto Honda of the story. I don't think that's a good fate for a character, or a rewarding one.
It's entirely possible he'll just get a new sword and be done with it. I'm just saying that I, personally, don't think that'll happen.
Similarly, I'm not much for the theories of him getting the Sword of Destruction... but then again, if you had to trust someone with a weapon of mass destruction, it'd probably be him, because he's had to kill now and wouldn't do so again lightly.
Edited by Crinias on Apr 1st 2021 at 6:21:13 AM
I do think it is interesting that Penny chooses assisted suicide. I kind of have mixed feelings on it though.
On the negative side, there's the whole "transfer the Maiden power" thing which kind of muddles the message, since Winter with that power does swoop in and fight a little before going off to protect the civilians. So that's interesting to mull over.
On the positive side, I do like that Penny made a conscious decision to die and that Jaune respected that decision enough to actually help her go through with it. Though it was in the heat of battle, so I hope there won't be a "there had to be another way, we could/should have figured something out" plot in Volume 9. Also why I don't want her to be alive somehow or resurrected, it would invalidate her decision.
So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr![]()
Ugh, I'd pass on the relic of destruction theory as well - way too corny. If Jaune is going to be a good fighter and a successful huntsman, I would like him to achieve it out of his sweat + blood, not because of some magical macgauffin. The story clearly indicates that Salem will eventually get her hands on all four relics, anyways.
I'm not exactly sure what Jaune will do for fighting here on out. Using the claymore as both an offensive and defensive tool seems possible. I for one am happy that I'm not entirely sure what will happen to his character and his story moving forward.
Edited by mach56gs on Apr 1st 2021 at 3:30:59 AM
@mach Because that makes no fucking sense!
- For one thing, she can't have gone to the afterlife since the rules of the Maiden powers says the former wielder's soul merges with the new one, and the merge is nigh identical to Ozma's situation anyway outside of hearing voices in the head! That was the entire damn point behind the "is part of you" Continuity Nod, it wasn't being poetic, it was being freaking literal!
- How would her damn corpse roll off the platform when she was flat on her back and nothing knocked it off!
- How does her even still living undermine the message of life and death when the message is freaking broke anyway! Light and Dark quite literally played tug-o-war reviving and killing Ozma because the former hated someone ignoring his sanctimonious bs and the latter just liked having someone actually ask him for something! There is no singular meaning of life and death in this show, it's just the gods are freaking assholes!
- And no, her character is not complete, since the end of the volume completely undermined her character! Since she didn't need to be a literal human, she already was human without a fleshy body! All making her human did was make it easier to kill her!
- And don't act like this is the same as other characters being dead, since she is in no damn way like other characters! She is literally a soul born into existence after a man gave up part of his to bring a robot to life, became a robot with a soul, died once, got repaired, was validated as human by becoming a maiden, got made into a "soul without a complete body", and now her soul has merged with someone else's soul! She is nothing like the other characters who were just ordinary humans. And the only person remotely like Penny at this point is Ozma, who is still here.
[Deep breath]
I know I need to calm down, but frankly speaking all of the arguments you are offering are rage inducing.
I just know I'm gonna be thumped for this, but you know what? I don't care. Bring on the thump mods. Cause this needed to be said.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 1st 2021 at 6:38:46 AM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.Edited by Crinias on Apr 1st 2021 at 6:41:17 AM
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Well for starters, it's not complimentary to his fighting style meaning he'd need to learn to fight from scratch. He's trained in swordplay. A banner meanwhile is closer to spearplay.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 1st 2021 at 6:47:16 AM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.And if you want to be technical, Jeanne d'Arc did have a sword. The Sword of St. Catherin.
Frankly, it's weirder his sword was called Crocea Mors, since that was the sword of Julius Caesar.

If the intent was to say "dear viewers, people who die will stay dead because that is how it is in real life, and we all need to deal with grief", then I agree they shouldn't have brought Penny back to life in the first place, or explicitly told us back in volume 4 that Ozpin can't exactly stay dead.
That opens up the doors already - as mach56gs says, death is death. At the time of volume 3, for all anyone knew, Penny and Pyrrha were equally dead, narratively speaking. Trying to draw a distinction between the two is a sleight of hand. If one can come back, the other can too, from a writer's perspective. That's the First Law of Resurrection at work.
We can't know if Penny will stay dead this time or not, and I don't think we should pretend we have anything other than expectations or hopes to base our thoughts on. And, mind you, we also have every right to feel angry and upset over this development, as long as we don't harass anyone about it.