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Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#5851: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:38:03 PM

[up][up]It's almost like they have different opinions or something.

Gaogaigar54 Since: Jan, 2020
#5852: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:38:08 PM

[up][up][up]It's less that the heroes never win and more that they never win when it matters. The only time they did was V5, were the victory was more or less handed to them.

And for the whole "that win was poorly written so it dosn't count" argument. Well the whole point of those wins in the narrative is to make the audience share in that triumph and catharsis. And if the story fails to do that, then it fails to really give another up before we reach the next down.

It dosn't help that whatever triumph their was quickly undone, when the lamp turned out to be more a burden than anything else and Salem got it anyway a couple of volumes later.

The only wins the heroes get are against relative nobodies like Adam or some one off stronger than average Grimm.

Salem has more less become like Aizen and not in a good way.

Edited by Gaogaigar54 on Mar 27th 2021 at 2:40:25 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#5853: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:39:34 PM

[up][up] Yes. But I'm also allowed to have the opinion that it makes the fanbase seem somewhat unpleasable.

[up] Adam was very important to the arcs of Blake and Yang though.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 27th 2021 at 9:43:01 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#5854: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:43:24 PM

[up] Which also means I have the opinion that a fanbase is not a hivemind.

Gaogaigar54 Since: Jan, 2020
#5855: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:43:32 PM

[up][up]But in the grand scheme he and the rest of the WF were nobodies who's downfall had no tangible impact on Salem's crew. In wresting/WCW terms, beating hims was the equivalent of beating a mid car heel, who isn't even in the nWo.

The heroes have some personal wins, but no for lack of a better term real "plot wins".

Edited by Gaogaigar54 on Mar 27th 2021 at 2:43:48 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#5856: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:44:16 PM

@Gaogaigar54: Yeah, my big issue is that Salem keeps winning, and it's not because of how overwhelmingly powerful she is and that's the hint that force of arms doesn't represent a path to victory (Strength Will Not Bring Victory), instead it's seemingly because the heroes and their allies are just continuously grabbing the Idiot Ball or Conflict Ball. In cases like volume 5 where it's her side's turn to lose, they're the one grabbing the Idiot Ball, or more specifically Cinder does and yet she somehow hasn't been killed yet for her Persist Incompetence and Disloyalty.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 27th 2021 at 5:49:23 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#5857: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:45:13 PM

[up][up][up] So do you think unpleasable fanbases don't exist? It's all just different people with different opinions? Honest question

[up][up] As a wrestling fan, I don't particularly mind if a feud is for a title or low on the card so long as I think it tells a good story and the match is cool.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 27th 2021 at 9:50:26 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5858: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:45:44 PM

Matter a fact, a good chunk of her victory this volume had less to do with her own wit, and more to do with everyone being kept occupied by Ironwood being an idiot and Cinder's power boner.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Gaogaigar54 Since: Jan, 2020
#5859: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:48:05 PM

[up][up][up]In regards to the Aizen example, the guy was cool at first but he outstayed his welcome after years of the plot bending over backwards to ensure that everything goes his way and that the heroes were never allowed to get a leg up on him. And it just got tiresome. Salem is pretty much in the same position at this point.

[up][up] But still the faces being able to beat the mid card heels, didn't mitigate the nWo almost never losing (and having their few losses immediately undone).

But one way or the other we need a reason to actualy believe the heroes can actualy "save the world" and at this point they have done nothing to show that they can.

Edited by Gaogaigar54 on Mar 27th 2021 at 2:53:39 AM

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#5860: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:54:16 PM

it's tricky because you want other characters to have agency in a conflict. You can't have every problem be a result of Salem's machinations. But then that means that every time she benefits from the actions of another character that she didn't directly orchestrate, she's going to look like she's getting lucky.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 27th 2021 at 9:54:57 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
Gaogaigar54 Since: Jan, 2020
#5861: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:58:28 PM

[up]I'm sure it's a problem that's made worse by RWBY having jus plain bad pacing, but that dosn't really excuse the problem.

The heroes making little to no progress against the big bad for most the story isn't always bad. But at this point it's been eight years since the show began and the heroes have made zero headway against their big bad.

At this point is there really anyway for Salem to be defeated in a satisfying way? To bring it back to Aizen, his defeat was an anti climax, but after half a decade of him being the height of invincible villain, there was never going to be a way for him to lose that wasn't anti climatic.

While I know the V2 and V5 volumes were objectively much worse. They never really made me consider dropping the show. But frankly after this final, I'm honestly considering it.

Edited by Gaogaigar54 on Mar 27th 2021 at 3:13:01 AM

Slater130 Since: Jun, 2013
#5862: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:01:23 PM

The win at Haven is not Zero headway no matter how much you insist it is. The Academy and Tower still standing matters.

Pokesamus Since: Aug, 2016
#5863: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:03:23 PM

And while the villain's did win when it came to Beacon, they still can't get the thing they actually need from it.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5864: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:04:57 PM

[up][up]The building itself is standing, but it still got shut down and the students had to go to Vacuo as a result. And the tower being up means little if all four aren't up, with Beacon and now Atlas Tower being down. And while Beacon can be rebuilt, Atlas can't considering the entire city crashed into the ground. And the only viable alternative, Amity Tower, is currently not an option due to Cinder breaking one of the thrusters and lacking a network to connect to, since Ironwood shut it off remotely.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 27th 2021 at 6:09:36 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#5865: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:06:36 PM

So do you think unpleasable fanbases don't exist? It's all just different people with different opinions?
Back in the day, I used to think that there were unpleasable fanbases that could never be truly satisfied.

However, recent fandoms, like this one, have showed me that you can't truly please everyone. There will always be someone who doesn't think highly of a masterpiece or someone who will defend what most consider shit.

In the end, it's all a matter of different opinions. To think otherwise encourages a mob mentality that leads to fandom fractures where you either have to Love It or Hate It.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5866: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:14:04 PM

In all honesty, I had hoped this would have been not a flat out loss for the villains, but at the least a tie. That each side would gain one Relic, Atlas would still fall, but Penny would survive and go to Vacuo. To further the idea of them not being able to kill Salem, but stop her by locking her in a stalemate like Ozpin did. Instead though, Salem now has two relics despite doing nothing to earn them in either case, and the heroes have flat out lost. And taking the novels into account, just going to Vacuo doesn't solve any of their issues since Vacuo is in no condition to take all of these refugees in.

This whole volume feels like everything the Heroes have done this time around sans Ruby's message amounted to nothing.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#5867: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:22:27 PM

So to bring the thread around to something a bit more light hearted after the finale, it looks like we get to name FOFD's next DND character.

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#5868: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:25:38 PM

Oh man, so many pages to catch up with.

Uh......man I am staying as far away from Discourse as possible. Apparently, people are already sending death threats and harassment to Kdin (and likely the rest of CRWBY).

I'm still processing this absolutely wild ride. I'm....hurt and sad about Penny, but I'm going to wait to see where things go. There is overall a sense of things not being concluded, on all points. It hurts so much, but at the same time I'm struck by how joyful Penny was about it all.

Vine's sacrifice also hurt, but at the same time it worked for me. The one person that had consistently kind of been quiet, logical, and didn't seem to care shows how much he truly does care. He goes out having fully embraced the love he felt for his friends, and following his heart instead of what is "logical". Yes, it was something only he could do. But it wasn't about the math or the odds, it was about love.

Neo is next for Redemption Arc, difficulty up? I didn't expect her AND Jaune to fall. But it's an interesting division of the teams.

Cinder really just went I unlocked the Power of Friendship, then immediately murdered both of them because I'm full of spite.

Ironwood's fate is......man. It's going to fuel a million theories over the break. Because he was still alive in the Vault, and we never see what happens. The ambiguity of it is going to drive the fandom inside. (Bonus: Jason's message similarly gives no indication of things. Just thanking people and talking about the awesome passionate people in the crew and fandom. In comparison to other actors that have given a clear-cut message when their character died.)

It's definitely a Darkest Hour, and everyone is reeling from it. It feels very much like a mixed bag, because the loss of a kingdom and two Relics really amps the tension. Salem is marking this a victory, even if she didn't get EVERYTHING she wanted. And I notice we don't see Monstra's corpse when Atlas falls, so the theories it may be linked to her and revived may be true.

Atlas becomes Atlantis, huh? The lost city, the proud technological wonder that falls below the water.

In terms of population, we really don't ever get a clear picture. But Remnant seems to have a MUCH smaller population than the real world, partially because we know that each Kingdom basically had ONE large city. And everything else was small villages, and frontier of people trying to establish new homes. The numbers we've gotten so far is "Thousands" for Solitas, "Millions" for Remnant as a whole, and "over a hundred" for the large village in Vacuo that CFVY helps. So it's very likely that MOST of the kingdom's population was saved.

Which makes it basically a huge Pyrrhic Victory. They managed to save most of the people, but lost the kingdom itself and both Relics were stolen. The Lamp being out of questions renders one major threat reduced, since Beacon's Vault remains sealed and hidden. But Salem has half the collection now, raising the threat overall.

Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#5869: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:31:21 PM

[up][up] I suggest either Aroner or Posy.

[up] Remains to be seen whether the show will count the kingdom's people as its kingdom rather than the physical place. If the former then maybe there could be an interesting twist re: the God of Light's proclamation of the world being united and such

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Psyga315 Since: Jan, 2001
#5870: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:33:28 PM

This whole volume feels like everything the Heroes have done this time around sans Ruby's message amounted to nothing.

And the darker part of the fandom might even say "Ironwood was right."

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#5872: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:44:45 PM

Ultimately, there was plenty of blame to go around. Everyone was making mistakes, and Ironwood's Sanity Slippage meant that he couldn't recognize the opportunities in front of him. That at any point, if they had been able take the Risk of reaching out to each other, they could have come out on top.

A lot of it involved the heroes lacking resources, and doing the best they could with limited experience/resources. It was notably the first time they have been 100% on their own, mostly going it alone without the guidance of more experienced people like Ozpin, Qrow, or Ironwood. They stumbled, struggled, and managed some but not a perfect win.

And on the other end, the unwillingness of the Atlas side to reconsider ultimately doomed them. Winter and the Ace-Ops hesitated on acting on their feelings for too long, no one willing to recognize and admit Ironwood had broken. That he needed to be removed and forced to chill the fuck out.

Maybe things would have gone differently, if not for the combination of Jacques mocking/lying to him and Watts letting him out of his cell.

And it's interesting that at its core, Ironwood feels resentful towards people. That he feels like he's taken on all the burdens, done everything to protect them, and that no one was GRATEFUL to him for all he did. He was so wrapped up in the narrative of being the Savior and the Hero, one we see that other people actively encouraged in Atlas. And he couldn't let go, and realize his actions were just making things worse for him and everyone else.

askjdkjds. Never Found the Body Uncertain Doom here we go.

https://twitter.com/darkavrora72/status/1375895504870117383/

Edited by harostar on Mar 27th 2021 at 6:56:18 AM

TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#5873: Mar 27th 2021 at 4:00:49 PM

So anyways, should be interesting to see Jaune get a new sword, and Blake hopefully a proper weapon upgrade (side note: props to Weiss for not even hesitating to pick up the gun and start blasting; I don’t know that it would add anything really beneficial to her style if she were to get one in the future, but it was a nice sight to see).

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#5874: Mar 27th 2021 at 4:09:50 PM

Tbh, I really hope whatever the heroes find down in the underworld is worth it.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#5875: Mar 27th 2021 at 4:11:44 PM

Oh I just thought, Pietro

His daughter actually survived when he thought she was Dead, but is dead now

Imagine if they had a Hope Spot, One of them mentioning being with Penny and hes initially overjoyyed thinking "Penny! Shes okay!?" And then....

Edited by Snoketrope on Mar 27th 2021 at 4:12:37 AM

Bow to the Prototype

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