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Gaogaigar54 Since: Jan, 2020
#5826: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:34:26 PM

[up][up]Honestly if she gets called out on anything it should be her entailment complex and how petty she really is.

Edited by Gaogaigar54 on Mar 27th 2021 at 1:34:57 AM

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#5827: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:36:44 PM

It would have been a cop-out if the virus situation was resolved by "Penny just concentrates real hard forever and it's gone." I have to disagree with the setup being bad writing, it's been established that Aura is a finite resource, and willpower is also a finite resource. Any solution that just ignored the virus would be bad writing, so it had to be dealt with one way or another, which tied into the heroes ultimately needing to get the relic. An alternative could have been taking her to someone who could write a counter-virus and inject the code into her, but at the end of the day it was a computer virus and her body was a robot body, it was always a limitation of her form.

If I may make some generalized assumptions not directed at anyone in particular, it seems a big problem people have with the deaths is that it's not neatly tied up and it cuts off future potential, and while I get this argument I'm against it being that way for all character deaths because apart of death is that it does cut off all your future potential and it rarely comes at an opportune time. Here at least this is Penny making a choice, and I do hope she sticks around in Winter's mind.

And to start of Volume 9 speculation, whose putting odds down on Watts and/or Ironwood surviving? Both were in absolutely terrible positions when we last saw them but we didn't see them die, and there is always something their survival could bring to the plot (Watts can expose Cinder's lie to Salem, and Ironwood....well he can just suffer knowing his actions destroyed his kingdom).

Also I've seen people point out that there are references to the Shallow Sea from the Fairy Tales of Remnant with the stinger.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5828: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:37:31 PM

[up]x3 Even if talking in terms of computer viruses though, there are ways around it. The parameters of the Virus stated Penny had to "open the Vault, and then self-terminate". Opening the vault isn't an issue since that's what they intended. The self-terminate part was the real issue, but they could have wrote ways around it, like having her simulate termination in order to trick the virus and then reactivating her, thereby fulfilling the parameters of the virus without actually killing her. Or, in the case of using the Aura, have the aura act analogous to a Virus Protection program and have it purge the Virus from Penny.

They could have wrote things to not require the only option being to make Penny a fleshy, but instead they did and now she's freaking permakilled. Especially when it not only undermined her original character arc, but it in turn causes several plot elements like her cores, Pietro's aura fraying, and not even Ambrosius knowing what she is now, to all be dropped.

[up]Not when writing a narrative though. Death in real life may be like that, but not when you are writing a story and trying to properly use characters.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 27th 2021 at 4:41:22 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#5829: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:43:04 PM

I disagree with that logic, more works need to have deaths that don't come at the end of character arcs, there needs to be a reasonable amount of major deaths that happen in the middle of a character's arc to cut it off.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#5830: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:43:35 PM

Edited by Heatth on Mar 27th 2021 at 5:46:13 AM

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5831: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:43:59 PM

[up][up]As someone who suffered through Akame ga Kill!, I can tell you that line of thinking is not a good idea.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 27th 2021 at 4:44:19 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#5832: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:44:03 PM

Here's another thing. What do you think Penny being a robot with a human soul is a metaphor for? Like, what's being undermined by Penny being made fleshy?

Because if the idea is that Penny should've been comfortable in her body, then, why is that? I'm sure there are plenty of people out in the world who have very compromised bodies who wouldn't mind having one that's less shit. Those people are no less human.

Penny doesn't need to not be a robot to be human, but by that same token, why does she NEED to be a robot? Maybe her robot body IS at odds with who she is.Maybe Penny is a person who's had to push through the constraints of her body to manifest herself, and her body is indeed a burden.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 27th 2021 at 8:45:22 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5833: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:46:46 PM

[up]It undermines the fact that Penny originally lamented that she wasn't a real girl, that she was Just a Machine, only to prove everyone wrong. That it didn't matter if her skin was metal and her insides were circuitry, that she was human, and didn't need to have a flesh body to prove that, hence why her becoming the Winter Maiden was the ultimate affirmation she was human. But... no, apparently leaving her soul behind means that she is now a fleshy meatbag rather than, ya know, a robot anymore. Her entire character arc was that she didn't need to physically be human to be a human. But now she's a physical human anyway cause why not.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Gaogaigar54 Since: Jan, 2020
#5834: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:52:22 PM

One could argue bringing Penny back just to kill her off again, was kind of a waste of time.

If you are just gonna kill her then let her stay dead.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#5835: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:52:47 PM

[up][up] The concept of Penny having an aura donated by Pietro already undermines her arc if you think the purpose of her arc is to demonstrate that she's a human despite being a purely mechanical construct. It's not like Penny was an AI who gained self awareness purely by virtue of her programming and circuitry and hardware. She was a human soul embedded into a machine.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 27th 2021 at 8:59:07 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#5836: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:52:48 PM

Or alternatively, being turned human reinforces that she was always a real girl. They took the metal body away and what was left was what was always there.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5837: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:57:11 PM

[up][up]Actually, she was an AI that gained Sapience. Her Amity Arena card actually says that Penny herself is the AI in the body, not the body itself.

What's more, is that her experience in Vale has proven to us that Penny's AI is powerful enough to actually integrate with Human society to a fair degree.
She had her own soul. Aura isn't the soul itself, the soul generates the aura. Penny gained a soul of her own just by existing. Pietro donating the aura is just what allowed her to start. Hence the wording of donate.

[up]Doesn't change the fact that making her human means there's no way to bring her back this time, after we just got her back.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 27th 2021 at 5:00:00 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#5838: Mar 27th 2021 at 1:58:43 PM

The parameters of the Virus stated Penny had to "open the Vault, and then self-terminate". Opening the vault isn't an issue since that's what they intended. The self-terminate part was the real issue, but they could have wrote ways around it, like having her simulate termination in order to trick the virus and then reactivating her, thereby fulfilling the parameters of the virus without actually killing her.

I think the problem is that the mechanics of any possible termination aren't really explored. Does it mean that Penny just turns off the thrusters while hovering over Mantle and breaks into parts upon impact? Or does it mean that Penny reboots with her memories wiped? Or something else entirely? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 'tricking' the virus - are you suggesting Penny turning off and on again would be enough?

Or, in the case of using the Aura, have the aura act analogous to a Virus Protection program and have it purge the Virus from Penny.

That is admittedly a possibility seeing as Penny is rather one-of-a-kind and therefore how her Aura works could be used differently. I'm not sure if Ambrosius' inability to destroy anything extends here though.

[up]Not when writing a narrative though. Death in real life may be like that, but not when you are writing a story and trying to properly use characters.

I don't see why death in fiction can't be like death in real life, though? People in fiction die suddenly all the time, although the method may be different sometimes the fact remains that it is an established phenomenon. I don't know what you mean by 'properly us[ing] characters'. What is your definition of a properly used character?

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
Gaogaigar54 Since: Jan, 2020
#5839: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:02:07 PM

[up]Because more realistic dosn't always mean better storytelling.

In that case its just wasteful and pointless to the narrative.

Edited by Gaogaigar54 on Mar 27th 2021 at 2:02:17 AM

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5840: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:02:31 PM

[up][up]Explore all avenues necessary to the character so that their arc is fully realized in a satisfying manner that leaves no open questions or ends. Pyrrha's death worked because her character was fully realized and her role in the story was to die. Hazel dying in the middle of an arc doesn't work because his arc is prematurely cut off and then makes it feel like a waste of time developing an arc that doesn't get finished.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 27th 2021 at 5:02:41 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Pokesamus Since: Aug, 2016
#5841: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:08:11 PM

The way Hazel went was his arc though. Pursuit of revenge to the point where he becomes worst then the person he’s trying to get revenge on, realization that he has become a monster and then doing everything in his power to make up for it, up to and including sacrifice. You might not like it but that is a character arc.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5842: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:11:07 PM

An arc like that though doesn't work with the character dying as soon as they change sides though, they need to actually be able to atone for their actions, otherwise, like many other instances of Redemption Equals Death, it feels like they didn't have to do much to atone. Yeah, them sacrificing themselves would work... but not immediately after they change sides, only after they actually atone first.

It's the same problem people had with Darth Vader's redemption. "Sure, you terrorized the galaxy, slaughtered children, and acted as the right hand of evil for over a decade, but that's all forgiven because you gave your life throwing your former master down a hole!" There's no actual atonement, no actual attempt at righting the wrongs they did. It feels cheap.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Mar 27th 2021 at 5:16:02 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#5843: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:11:17 PM

I guess I just don't see how Penny turning into a human retroactively makes her not a human before then. Does anyone in the audience think Penny HASN'T been a human all this time?

I thought the scene where Jaune boosted her aura was meant to definitively communicate that she has a human soul and isn't just a robot. Her becoming fleshy is just the Penny that's always been there inside the robot coming out, in a form that isn't constrained by her mechanical parts.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 27th 2021 at 9:14:05 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#5844: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:12:41 PM

@Shaoken: That works if you're in a work where Anyone Can Die. That's not really the case here.


[up][up] Yeah, that's what I hate about Redemption Equals Death, it's used as a cop out for actual Character Development when you want a bad dude to turn good. I'm rather worried the show will end up using an even worse version of that with Salem where she basically gets what she wants (death) just for saying sorry.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Mar 27th 2021 at 5:15:54 AM

Gaogaigar54 Since: Jan, 2020
#5845: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:16:30 PM

It ultimately makes what Penny and everyone else went through with her in the arc pointless and kind of a waste of the audience's time.

It makes bringing Penny back to begin with a waste of time.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5846: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:25:22 PM

When we say "the same problem people had with Vader's redemption" we mean a minority of people, right? Since I've never remotely agreed with it.

I'm neutral on Penny's death, just wish we didn't get like three fakeouts on it.

TwinBird Dunkies addict from Eastern Mass Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Dunkies addict
#5847: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:26:10 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] But what's the alternative? In a galaxy soaked in blood, he's allowed to live? Make incremental change over time, while his very existence twists the knife in trillions of wounds, much less his victims' supposed allies treating him as a patient to be healed, worse yet, expressly hoping one day he'll be a hero to be lauded? He can't make commensurate atonement; a good death is the closest he can come. The same is true of most action-adventure villains.

Edited by TwinBird on Mar 27th 2021 at 5:32:37 AM

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#5848: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:28:18 PM

I just never got why "died saving his son, securing the future, winning the war for the rebellion and kills the ultimate personification of evil" is somehow insufficient in a setting when the Light Side and Dark Side of the Force aren't simply metaphorical.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
#5849: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:31:34 PM

Just watched Eruption Fang's review of the finale.

He's like "It's technically a loss for the heroes, even though they saved 95% of the people they were trying to save and only suffered one casualty on their end."

So yeah, there really are people in the FNDM who think the heroes never win, and also people in the FNDM who think the heroes never lose. It's maddening.

Edited by GNinja on Mar 27th 2021 at 9:32:15 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#5850: Mar 27th 2021 at 2:36:51 PM

[up]x3 Go into hiding letting people believe he's dead and helping make the galaxy better from the shadows as a form of eternal punishment?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.

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