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harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#3701: Dec 7th 2020 at 10:07:14 PM

Yeah, I'd imagine as Ironwood continues to desperately grasp at control, it's going to continue backfiring on him. Rule through fear and power only work as long as you have enough people willing to enforce that. And Ironwood is rapidly burning bridges and driving people away from him.

Definitely the Grimm horde is going to be an issue, regardless of whether they manage to start fully evacuating people or not. I think it's a matter of "Give them a fighting chance" versus "Sit there and watch them die". Even if ships are destroyed, it's still likely to save more people than the alternative of doing nothing.

The River is probably one reason that Salem has been waiting so far, since it reaching a city full of people will be a huge advantage for her. Either just from the psychological warfare angle, or if it does indeed use whatever falls into it to create more Grimm. If that's the case as the branch seemed to suggest, that means potentially adding an entire city's population to her forces.

gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York Since: Jul, 2016
Musician/Composer
#3702: Dec 7th 2020 at 10:58:38 PM

Given what happened to Jacques, do you think it fits the How the Mighty Have Fallen trope?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#3703: Dec 8th 2020 at 4:07:06 AM

"And if robyn didnt have her trust semblance? or something go wrong in the fight or R Obyn was salem agent(or being spie by one)?"

My point is that Trusting Robyn had risks but it was also the only option they had available.

That isn't changed by....there being Risks.

"James told ruby know for the simple reaosn salem was already there and any action like that can cause altas to colapse and so far the have being right: Ruby dosent have a way to deal with salem, in fact she sent her hound, oscar is now it her claws and she hold a relic."

So far the Volume has been proving that James was wrong, they could evacuate Mantle first before leaving, they could have found a way to launch Amity. They could have done all those things, and the only reason they haven't is James.

Bow to the Prototype
FergardStratoavis A Fluff Ringer from Bellveins (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
A Fluff Ringer
#3704: Dec 8th 2020 at 6:38:58 AM

Back in Volume 3, we had this longwinded discussion about how Jaune was the worst for not listening to what he was told to do and instead looked back once he heard Pyrrha screaming out in pain. That was attributed to one of the main reasons why Cinder was able to snipe Amber and secure the rest of her Fall Maiden powers.

Ignoring Jaune's actual ability to anticipate and stop such an attack even with his full attention, the discussion became an exploration of a Soldier Versus Warrior trope. With all these revelations we had through the volumes, I can't help but wonder about it now.

Huntsmen across Remnant are undoubtedly warriors. They're mercenaries with colorful weaponry and flamboyant personalities who roll from town to town protecting the citizens basically according to their own whimsy. Every trainee Huntsman we've met - from the protagonists to tertiary extras - had something different or unique going for them.

But here's the problem: there's a war going on, and Huntsmen are unknowingly raised for its purpose despite being taught otherwise. Most Huntsmen would have never learned of it (thanks, Ruby) if all went according to Ozpin's design. Atlas is an exception: it has a standing army and its Huntsmen are heavily encouraged to join its ranks as Specialists. With the exception of Weiss, no protagonist is from Atlas and none of them are soldiers, no matter whether the war is secret or open.

Why wouldn't Yang and Blake make an effort to trust Robyn? Blake recognizes a fellow activist doing what she can for her people while Yang sees a free spirit helping out despite the rules. They're told a bunch of times that Ironwood doesn't care for Mantle all that much and that its technology is outdated because of that fact. They can see a giant hole in the Mantle wall that remains to be fixed months after it's been made. They've seen that dividing is how Salem and her flunkies operate, and butting heads over helping people out shouldn't even be a point of discussion.

It's hard to be a soldier when no one told you that you're one, is my point.

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#3705: Dec 8th 2020 at 11:48:20 AM

Btw, what happened to Team FNKI? I feel like they're missing a good chance to give them some real development.

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#3706: Dec 8th 2020 at 12:03:35 PM

The students were evacuated to the Academy, which is on lock-down. However, I'm hoping we'll see them in future episodes as they learn what's happening. Flynt's backstory is about the little guy getting screwed over, and Neon is a Faunus. So already, these outliers are primed to rebel.

SilentLyfe Since: Apr, 2020
#3707: Dec 8th 2020 at 1:49:19 PM

So, did Ruby tell the world about the Silver Eyes? I mean, if she decided to go ahead and expose the Maidens and Relics, which I still think is a terrible move, then why not tell about how there are warriors that can vaporize Grimm and she is one of them? Could help in rallying aid.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3708: Dec 8th 2020 at 2:38:26 PM

It would just get people kidnapping anyone with remotely silver eyes and forcing them to be weapons under the rationale they can kill Grimm. We don't need even more Child Soldiers.

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
SilentLyfe Since: Apr, 2020
#3709: Dec 8th 2020 at 2:45:51 PM

Then why did she out the Maidens? By that logic they too could be forced to be weapons and if not, killed. Since we know they were hunted and killed for their powers before.

Edited by SilentLyfe on Dec 8th 2020 at 2:47:54 AM

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#3710: Dec 8th 2020 at 3:19:25 PM

I think it's very likely that we don't hear her speech in full, since there's clearly Exposition missing from it.

Watching the scene again, there's a moment where the speech audio is gone while it focuses on Penny outside struggling to keep Amity in place. So it goes from:

"...tear down the Huntsmen Academies" to "I know the idea of the Maidens and Relics..."

So I think that some of the speech is left out.

SilentLyfe Since: Apr, 2020
#3711: Dec 8th 2020 at 3:21:06 PM

Honestly, even if parts were cut, I feel like it would have been better not to mention them at all. Just focus on Salem, talk about how she controls Grimm and is attacking.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3712: Dec 8th 2020 at 3:24:12 PM

[up][up][up]It's harder to identify a Maiden than it is to identify a SEW. I doubt Ruby told the qualifications for the Maidens, so the only thing people would have to go on is that they're women. Aside from that and their eye flames though, do any of the known Maidens seem like they share any superficial traits?

  • Amber lived in the mountains alone and was a young adult.
  • Raven is a notorious Bandit Queen and pushing 40.
  • Fria was an elderly painter riddled with dementia and was on her death bed.
Whereas with an SEW, there's a defining trait people would look for, their eyes. Meaning an SEW would be much easier to catch and/or kill since you only need to see their eyes.

And even then, there's only one Maiden at risk in all this: the Summer Maiden in Vacuo, whose identity is either completely unknown or known only to Theo. Compare that to who knows how many people out there with Silver Eyes. Even if only a small amount based on the idea Salem has been hunting them to near extinction, just the fact their distinguishing trait is in the name means mentioning them puts them in jeopardy.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 9th 2020 at 1:10:16 PM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#3713: Dec 8th 2020 at 5:26:07 PM

Volume 8, Episode 5 thoughts.

I tend to post first and then catch up on everyone else's posts afterwards to see what people are thinking, but I'll have do that bit tomorrow. You guys have produced more than 10 pages, that'll take a while. tongue

    Thrust 
  • So, it's night. This is the night after the all-night conflict with Ironwood that led to everyone going on the run, being arrested or being shot. We're not going to be anywhere near dawn yet, so it's still less than 24 hours since the V7 finale.
  • Pietro looks worried by his cough and startled by Penny contacting him. That doesn't bode well.
  • Penny's in the Dust mine, surrounded by highly volatile Dust, in a mine that's already partially collapsed once before. She looks very small and vulnerable.
  • And this is the second time we're seeing how Penny's eyes work. This must be setting us up for the hack. I love the little Penny-sword icon in the bottom right-hand corner.
  • The bomb looks like a more sophisticated upgrade of the ones used in Volume 2 on the train and in Volume 5 at Haven. There's obviously a common shaping style even if the details differ.
  • Okay, so Amity was basically completed except for the initial power burst to raise them off the ground high enough to achieve their objective, and they're going to short-circuit the work needed for that by riding a Dust mine explosion. All those people that speculated about sending Salem into orbit on a volcanic explosion had the right idea — just the wrong source and character (it's an exploding Dust mine and Amity instead).
  • I have to say, I wasn't expecting Amity to attempt to rise so early in the volume. I've been expecting the rising to be part of the volume climax, where it rises... just in time for the world to witness Atlas falling from the sky. For Amity to rise so early, I'm wondering if my expectation was... too tame.
  • So, my guess now is that if Amity gets the broadcast out this episode, it's because it'll play into Salem's hands. That's the only explanation for it being now instead of towards the end of the volume, and would explain why Salem didn't want Cinder to leave the whaleship — she doesn't want her subordinates interfering with this.
  • Maria seems awfully happy at the thought of being sat on top of a 'couple of hundred tonnes of thrust'. Dirty old lady.
  • That work mecha doesn't just seem like an early model or industrial version of the military Paladin, its arm cannon looks like a prototype for the arm cannon on Cordovin's mecha, too. That would explain why Cordovin's mecha had a drill. The military model was based on an industrial mining design and retained certain features that would also prove useful on the Grimm.
  • Pietro explaining the plan for the benefit of the audience. I'm guessing it's Ruby who recorded the message. She's in charge of the group trying to make the message happen, after all.
  • And Penny has concerns about the rest of Remnant coming to help Atlas, although her concern lies with whether they're able to rather than whether they're willing.
  • All that Dust and all those bombs, just how big is this explosion going to be? Is it going to have a knock-on effect to Mantle? One thing's for sure, everyone in Mantle and Atlas are going to hear about it. I bet it'll also contribute to whatever is emerging from the tundra near Team YAL.
  • There are so many flags flying that Penny will defy everyone, including her father. That's before I get to the hacking threat.
  • Maria standing up for Penny's choices... and Pietro shuts down that conversation. You're going to have to have it one day, Pietro.
  • Penny flew straight out of the mine shaft is a continuity moment. When we were first introduced to it, there was a blockage. Harriet blasted the blockage when the Geist spooked Blake. I shall avoid launching into a rant again about how explosions in a mine that's at risk of collapse is a really stupid thing to do.
  • Penny inputs the access code in the robot equivalent of telepathy (remote access), which is just another flag about remote hacking, really.
  • And Pietro's chair has a gravity mode. Maria's enjoying this experience a little too much.

    Shipping 
  • And here comes Cinder, all ready to believe she anticipated the heroes better than Salem, only to end up disrupting Salem's plan — again.
  • Oh, her voice sounds a little strange. There's been a lot of that this volume. It's not bad, just different.
  • And Pietro was unable to keep his daughter safe from the fighting, after all.
  • Penny's swords are back. I'm looking to see if the stringes have been fixed or whether she's controlling them magically. But I count nine swords, so that's good continuity — the tenth is in Ironwood/Watts' hands.
  • And Neo did come, after all.
  • God. They're getting good at animating Cinder's psychotic grins.
  • And the arena chosen for Cinder and Penny's battle field is... Vacuo. Talk about prominent flags for set-up and foreshadowing of some kind. For the immediate scene, however, what it makes me think of is the Volume 7 battle between Cinder, Penny and Winter: there were three people in that fight, but 12 swords. Penny was using 8 swords, and the other two were using two each. This volume, Penny has been using 10 swords (9 now that Watts has one). What's Vacuo? A single solid sword and what appears its two halves on either side, creating the appearance of three blades. In other words — this is going to be a sword-heavy fight again. The two Maidens will be creating blades all over the place.
  • Yes, definitely nine blades.
  • Oh, lovely explosion shot.
  • I can only assume that Penny has fallen out of the air because the explosions set off airquakes/skyquakes as well as earthquakes. Airquakes are tremors in the air, such as a sonic boom. Their origins have not been positively identified, but theories do include volcanoes, avalanches, earthquakes and thunder.
  • And Ironwood was actually watching out for Amity's ascent, and is using it to instigate the next stage of his plan. That's probably going to be the hack. I'm glad about that. He assumed he had no way of stopping the kids from launching Amity, so decided to factor it into his planning, especially since he did originally want a broadcast to go out. At least they're not heading too far down the 'villain = stupid' route with him yet.
  • Emerald is also struggling with the thrust... there's Cinder and Penny.... where's Neo? Okay, time to keep an eye out for Neo.
  • Cinder was expecting the whole gang. She knows Ruby well enough to guess her plans, but not guess how Ruby assigns tasks and roles, and especially the role Ruby herself plays. That makes sense for an egomaniac — Cinder likes to be in the thick of it, Ruby tends to avoid dominating or hogging the limelight, but Cinder assumes people are just like her.
  • And Cinder's going a bit mad with all those swords. Looks like it will be a sword-heavy fight, after all.
  • Oh, dear, Penny. Cinder's telling you how she sees you, how the villains see you, how Ironwood sees you. Hacking alert.
  • Oh, and Cinder's opening attack is very reminiscent of the illusion Emerald made Pyrrha see in Volume 3, that led her to overuse her Semblance on Penny. Given that we're dealing with another Amity arena fight with Penny, that's a very nice touch. However, while I think there is a deliberate call-back to the Pyrrha/Penny fight here, I actually think the specifics of what Cinder's doing is an advancement on what she did during her fight with Ozpin. She tore up the floor with her fire and then transformed the debris that kicked up into a massive glass flechette storm. That's when Ozpin went all Matrix on her and destroyed all the flechettes without moving his feet. The difference between then and now is that Cinder's flechette storm was comprised of rough glass fragments, that looked like neolithic flint cutting objects. Now she's manifesting fully-formed blades that take the form of her favourite blade shape.
  • Penny, if you're magically using your swords, now is the time to magically clone their number. Ozpin was able to No-Sell Cinder's attack with ease, but Penny's got a bit of learning to do. She is brand-new at this, after all. She's also technically no more experienced at fighting than Jaune — the Vytal Tournament was her official test fight, which is why she kept insisting to people that she was 'combat ready' throughout Volume 2. So, while she may be a phenomenal engineering achievement — as a protector of the people, she's no more experienced in battle than the heroes are. So, it's not just that she's the newest Maiden on the block — and she's still been a Maiden for less than 24 hours at this point.
  • Wait... for a moment, there were too many swords. Or am I seeing things?
  • And here comes Maria to the rescue. In a mecha. Death flags on Maria rising.
  • I guess we located Neo.
  • And Maria and Neo are, quite literally, having a shipping war over Ruby.
  • Here comes Emerald's Semblance.
  • Oh, I guess all Emerald did was cloak the airship.
  • Here comes Neo's Semblance though. At least someone on the heroes' side now knows what Neo's after.

    Drifting 
  • So, Amity hasn't perfectly cleared the broadcast range boundary (the tip of its gravity crystals is still below the threshold) but that doesn't matter as long as the tower is above the threshold, and it is. Let's see how long it stays up.
  • Not long, apparently.
  • Ah, it was Cinder who screwed up the thruster with her grand entrance.
  • Yeah, worry about drift later, broadcast message now.
  • Aerial battle. High altitude battle, in fact. How on earth can Cinder breathe at this height? Magic, I guess.
  • How long has it been since we last saw Cinder pull her bow? Oh, that's right. Volume 3 — a one-arrow shot on Amber in the vault, but a three-arrow one on Amber in the flashback. They're going to town on the comparisons between the two arcs.
  • And this fight is putting Amity in danger. I really do think that Salem wanted Amity to rise. She wants a message to be broadcast to Remnant. Cinder's going to be in so much trouble for putting the signal in danger.
  • Heh, Penny's programming identifies Cinder as 'danger'.
  • Oh, and Cinder decides to use her brain instead of her desire. She's gone back to the tower instead of continuing the chase.
  • And as soon as Penny understands what Cinder is doing, that small moment of 'otherness' is gone and she's back to being a real girl again, complete with human emotions, such as fear and alarm at what Cinder is going to do.
  • Is Maria going Old Master on Neo?
  • As awesome as this is, this episode is creating a veritable slalom of death flags for Maria.

    Tools 
  • Yeah, Cinder's sabotaging the tower. I am utterly convinced now that Salem wanted the broadcast signal and is going to have Cinder's arse for breakfast. It's night-time, after all. I wonder how close to midnight we're getting...
  • Cinder's delusional if she thinks she doesn't serve Salem. She's in for a shock... just counting down the strokes to midnight now.
  • I wonder what Penny was going to say before she changed her words? Anyway, more flags for the hack happening this episode. As if we needed them, given what Ironwood said.
  • Oh, wires confirmed. I guess Penny is still using her wires on the other nine then. I guess it'll be the hack that will be what ends her use of the 'strings'. If the connection between her and the blades creates a weak-point for a hack to occur, then the solution is to tear all the wires from her body, deactivate her link to the swords and then use them wire-free with her Maiden power.
  • I was wondering if Penny would be the kind of Maiden that will simply choose the appropriate element for the job rather than having a specific preference for one element. So far, that's what she seems to be doing. Ice on the supports to counter Cinder's heat.
  • And, of course Cinder takes advantage of Penny binding herself to the tower. Remember what Ozpin said to Pyrrha in Volume 3? The tower must not fall.
  • Grimm hand to the face, reminiscent of the parasite attaching itself to Amber's face — also shown in Volume 3. And I'm even more convinced with that parallel that the Grimm arm comes from the parasite within her rather than being a 'transplant'.
  • I wonder if Salem can sense the Grimm absorbing the power?
  • Well, the Maiden blades were going to happen eventually. Today, we begin with ice versions.
  • And Penny crashes back to the ground with her real blades scattering on the ground and one landing upright, embedded in the arena floor. The Volume 3 references just keep coming.
  • Okay, Maria, that was not the kind of mistake an Old Master should be making.
  • And goodbye Neo's Aura.
  • Wait, why would Emerald's Semblance work on Penny? Even May's Semblance doesn't work on her.
  • And Penny can indeed counter it. Excellent stuff. I guess this was what the constant 'Penny-eye view of things with her little danger-sensor was a set-up for.
  • Wow, Penny really went for it.
  • Penny looks a little eerie as she comes into view behind Emerald and Cinder. That sort of serene 'this is the end for you' expression that we see on villain faces, and which we saw on Ironwood's face just before he shot Oscar.
  • And Penny looks absolutely feral after that bullet missed Dad by inches. We're seeing a lot of behaviour and expressions from Penny this episode that we don't usually see. It's like watching her innocence being stripped from her right in front of our eyes.
  • And it's not quite lost yet. Emerald calms Penny down. The good thing (for Penny) is that what reached her was Emerald admitting she can't beat Penny.
  • And Neo really is not enjoying her situation at all.
  • Well, so much for Cinder 'hiding' her little trip away from Salem. I'm not talking about the fact Salem has her bugged with the parasite Grimm. I'm talking about the fact she's unconscious, or at least insensible.

    Altitude 
  • A throw-away acknowledgement that the temperature at such a high atmospheric altitude is going to be problematic. I've decided to do a separate discussion about Amity's satellite status — see the Atmospheric folder.
  • Well, at least someone is talking about how they felt when Penny was ripped to shreds. The camera focussing on Pietro thumping the arm of his chair with his fist is a call-back to Volume 3, where Penny's destruction leads to a shot of Pietro from the back, before giving us a close-up of his same hand gripping the arm of his chair tighter.
  • Sorry, mate, but part of watching your daughter live her life is to allow it to be her life to live.
  • Beautiful girl gazing at beautiful sky. Cue Ozpin's Volume 2 comment: "nights like these are ones we'll never forget". Cue the other shoe dropping. Any minute now.
  • Robot power plus Maiden power to the rescue.
  • And Bill didn't learn his lesson. He still has his mug. It's funny how it smashes with this drop, but didn't with the previous one.
  • Hey, it's purple dude and his friend.
  • And, yes, it's Ruby giving the message. It sounds like it's Blake doing the recording. From the Happy Huntress's base of operations. If Ironwood didn't know where that base was before, he might actually be able to find it now.
  • Still wondering if the person with the eyepatch in the big picture is a relative of Robyn's. They have the same skin tone and facial structure.
  • According to the subtitles, Ruby is hoping Amity 'Town' will bring people together.
  • Anyway, see the Message folder — for both the words and all the activities and visuals that take place during the speech.

    Puppets 
  • So, as we all expected, the way Penny's swords work allows Watts to worm his way into her programming code by hacking one of her swords to create a remote connection. Theory folder time.
  • The way Ironwood talks about 'Polendina's proxy trick', it sounds like this was a design issue Polendina had to find a work-around for. Watts either found theoretical notes from Pietro's design stage discussing a possible solution, or Watts remember Pietro was going to try this when the problem cropped up during the project. Which is why they're talking about it working as if they've only just been able to confirm it works by Watts getting the sword and taking it apart.
  • Well, it doesn't sound like it's just Amity and the launch terminal. The CCT works the same way. Theory time.
  • Watts replaces the lovely green chip with the sword-shaped symbol on it with a mean-looking red chip with his curly W on it. It's super effective!
  • The hack turns Penny's eyes red just as everyone expected. Given what Ironwood wanted, this is the hacking equivalent of tapping the ruby red shoes together to return home.
  • Penny does her best to fight the hack, but she can't win. We can see what her instructions are — she's to go to the Vault. Her calling out 'Dad' at the end sounds a genuinely terrified cry for help. Props to the voice acting there.
  • And, as Penny loses her sense of control and perhaps even her sense of identity, her parallels to Oscar continue.
  • And, we have another parallel to Volume 3: Penny is shut down by the machinations of Salem's subordinates while at Amity. Indeed, Watts is the reason Cinder was able to use Penny in the first place. Well, Watts and Qrow's Semblance.
  • Her eyes go dead, although in the opposite way to Volume 3. The pupils opened wide in Volume 3 and contract to a pinpoint now.
  • It seems weird that she'd be shut down though. I don't think that's what she was supposed to be commanded to do given that it makes her fall. They don't want her falling, they want her opening the Vault's chamber door.
  • So, Penny goes into re-entry burn and, for a brief moment, her eyes come back to life. I dread to think what she'll look like when she comes out the other side. But I have a theory.
  • And we've been left with two devastated fathers in the space of a single episode.
  • So, they've lost contact with Penny. She's in re-entry, so they would lose contact with her. However, given that Humanity Revised has never had satellites before perhaps they're not completely familiar with re-entry. They will also have no idea where Penny is right now, so even if they know about re-entry issues, they're not going to know right now that's the situation she's in.
  • Ironwood, of course, immediately assumes Watts has been able to do something under his nose, and we're all pretty sure that he has. Even if he's done exactly what Ironwood's asked of him, that doesn't stop him from doing more than what's been asked (say, something for his agenda, too). Especially since Watts freely admitted that Ironwood's ask fits in with his own plans, too. And that makes sense because Ironwood and Salem both want that chamber door opened.
  • However, I notice that Penny's sword is still lit up. If her swords all talk together each other, then her swords are still connected despite the loss of communications. And Watts is clearly watching that power button on her sword.
  • Ironwood must have thrown that very hard for it to end up that badly damaged.
  • Winter has repressed feelings about Penny given the way she's eying Penny's sword.
  • Watts casually tapping Penny's blade (still lit) is far too suspicious for me. That casual tapping is hiding something. He needs his hand on the blade and for people to not be suspicious about it. That's what this is telling me.
  • And now Winter's basically in charge of Ace-Ops for the 'retrieve Penny' scenario. The very fact that Ironwood isn't taking anything for granted tells us there's more to come from Penny.
  • It's worth bearing in mind that Elm described Winter to Penny as in critical condition and we could see her in bed wincing in agony when the medical staff tested her arms. Now she's here, in charge of a retrieval op. Both arms are strapped up (left worse than right) and her ribs look strapped, too. She's clearly not in any condition to be up and about, but she is anyway. And Ironwood doesn't bat an eyelid about it.
  • Oh, yes! Watts has done something. As he took his hand away from the blade, it's no longer lit up. The blade now has no power. I wonder if his finger tapping sent code to the chip via vibration sensors? Either way, since all the swords need to communicate and this sword is dead, that means that Penny's offline or the swords have lost contact.
  • I also can't see the original chip around here, I wonder if Watts pocketed that. I'm going to have to watch these scenes again to see if I can spot what happened to it.
  • And he's nabbed Ironwood's broken scroll. Ironwood's scroll is going to get hacked for again. Another Volume 3 parallel.

    Grimmbusters 
  • And we're back with Team YAL. Apparently, Ren's now out of his mood and inside... and Jaune clearly didn't get any sleep.
  • Yes, Yang. That was the broadcast. You know... the thing you thought would be impossible?
  • Sounds like that wasn't the first explosion, which means that might have been keeping Jaune awake anyway. Time to find out what signs our Wyvern Counterpart is going to have left behind.
  • Uh...
  • Okay, was not expecting that.
  • And anything that falls in just vapourises. Nice.
  • Okay. A river of Grimm. You know, when I said that Oscar having a bit of Hound goop landing on his cheek made me think that we've got a mood-slime situation on our hands, I wasn't actually expecting the full-blown river to be recreated. Ghostbusters II even involved an evil supernatural entity using the power of the river of slime as part of their end-game, which required the kidnapping of a kid called Oscar. Okay then, I guess we need to get one of the characters to take a sample, sweet-talk it, sleep with it and give it that loving feeling then paste it to the nearest towering, iconic statue they can find and walk through Mantle and the slums singing Higher and Higher by Jackie Wilson. This is why we saw Banjo Man from the start of Volume 7 in the slums this volume. He's the Chekhov's Gunman. Stop the presses, everyone, I have solved the plot!
  • Actually, it's dawn, so perhaps Team YAL did manage to get a little bit of sleep. I'm confused. Has an entire night really passed?
  • You know, the river of psychomagnetheric slime in Ghostbusters II was created by a Sloar, which was some kind of giant reptile monster thing... that would fit into Solitas' theme (giant prehistoric dinosaur monster thing). It probably originates from underneath where the whaleship is hovering, hence its prominent presence in the one scene shot of Team YAL. So, this river is either from some kind of Remnant version of the Sloar... or it's whale pee.
  • End Credits: The concept art shows that it's still night, just starting to get lighter (not quite as light as in the episode). And the riverbanks are ice rather than rock. Also, there are branches of Grimm ooze creeping up the banks from the river to the surface all along it — looking like Tainted Veins on white skin. I wish that had been kept in for the final scenes.


    Atmospheric 
  • Okay, it's beginning to look like Amity is in Remnant's equivalent of the thermosphere. So, using real life:
    • The thermosphere is approximately 50-400 miles above the earth. Below it is the mesosphere (approximately 30-50 miles above the earth) and above it is the exosphere (approximately 400-6,000 miles).
    • In between the mesosphere and thermosphere is the mesopause, which is boundary between the mesosphere and thermosphere. This can fluctuate, so is roughly between 52-62 miles above the earth. It's therefore safer to say that if it's below 50 miles, it's the mesosphere and if it's above 62 miles, it's the thermosphere, and the bit in between is fuzzy. Every boundary has a 'pause' where one layer transitions into the next (so between the thermosphere and exosphere is the thermopause, between the mesosphere and stratosphere is the stratopause, etc.).
    • The Kármán Line occurs at (by international standards) around 62 miles high (50 miles by NASA and the US military). It's an artificially designated boundary, based on the atmospheric entry point (which is approximately 62 miles high), between the atmosphere and outer space to control what countries claim as their airspace. It's basically an attempt to use the atmospheric entry point as an attempt to draw a line through the mesopause for jurisdictional reasons. Either way, it's effectively saying that the thermosphere and exosphere are 'outer space' and therefore not eligible for jurisdictional claim whereas the mesosphere and lower can be claimed as national airspace by countries. It's also around the Kármán Line where aerodynamics end and astrodynamics begin (hence atmospheric entry), and it's also where the most common auroras occur.
    • The aurora can be different colours depending what gases are colliding and at what height. The most common auroras are green, which is oxygen clashing. This usually happens at around 50-70 miles, so at the bottom of the thermosphere. Note, oxygen can clash at higher altitudes (up to 200 miles), but higher altitude oxygen causes red auroras instead of green ones.
    • The International Space Station and low orbit satellites sit in the thermosphere, which is considered 'low earth orbit'. At 248 miles, the ISS is above the Line and therefore doesn't have to worry about national airspace.
    • The mesophere is the layer where we see the shooting stars (meteors burning up due to atmospheric entry).
    • I'm not entirely sure what the numbers on the trajectory are supposed to represent. If they're feet above ground, then the broadcast signal line is approximately 300,000 feet above ground (which coincides with their numbers, as long as you replace the dot with a comma: 284.432, which shows Amity sunk too far below the line to maintain the signal, becomes 284,432 feet above ground, which is 54 miles, and it almost bang-on the start of Earth's mesopause as well as being very close to NASA and the US military's definition of the Kármán Line. It's also where Penny is hovering level with the aurora, which is what we'd also expect for a green aurora on Earth. She also begins re-entry burn below Amity (so, transitioning into the mesosphere). In other words, the Broadcast Signal line is approximately where the Kármán Line is.
    • Unfortunately, it's also where we see Penny and Cinder flying just above the top of the clouds. While there is a type of cloud that exists in the mesospheric layer, those aren't the clouds we see. 'Normal' clouds reach the stratosphere, at highest, which means they were probably fighting in the stratopause.
    • Cinder shouldn't be able to breathe at that height, and definitely not while in the mesophere; she should also be badly exposed to radiation and cold (the thermosphere is a very hot layer but so thin it would feel unbearably cold).
    • While we can hand-wave this with 'magic', the interior of Amity is exposed to the elements thanks to both the impromptu 'door' Cinder decided to create and the roof, which we see Penny fly out to go and compensate for the damaged thruster. So, Pietro and Maria definitely shouldn't be breathing... or at a comfortable temperature.
  • Anyway, my point is that the dialogue is vague about the heights to get away with things. The animation and scenery, however, is what give us an indication of the atmospheric heights, and that's a mixed bag.
    • I think they're going for a 'space station' style situation where Amity is supposed to make it into the thermosphere for broadcast. By our standards, that would make Amity a true satellite, a low orbit satellite on a par with Earth's low orbit satellites and the ISS.
    • However, the animation and scenery varies between making it seem like it's just above the stratosphere (just above the clouds where she and Cinder fight) to the lower thermosphere (just above the mesopause) when she experiences re-entry burn (Amity looks like it's in the blackness of space, while she's falling into the fuzzy blue zone — which looks like the ozone layer, which is the mesophere again).
    • While all that could be argued that this is where the whole 'lift Amity higher' thing comes into play, I'm approaching this from the basis of what's on Pietro's screen. Basically, if we approach this from a 'lifting Amity' perspective (i.e., what the scenery is telling us), the external animation is more consistent and the major discrepancy is therefore that Pietro's screen doesn't quite sync with what we see of Amity's external environment. And, of course, if we ignore the fact that these characters need to breathe (among other things).

    Message 
Ruby's words:
  • Remnant now knows the Kingdom of Atlas is under attack, badly, and Ruby's calling for help.
  • She tells people not to panic, and tries to introduce calm by insisting that their enemy isn't new and it's not a case of kingdoms turning on each other.
  • She emphasises that the White Fang and Atlesian army were controlled and manipulated by Salem to destroy the Huntsmen Academies.
  • She reveals the Maidens and Relics, which acts by itself as a callback to Volume 3.
    • Pyrrha was told that the Maidens used to be public knowledge until their lives ended up in so much danger they had to be hidden from existence and turned into a legend instead. Pyrrha was also told there were concerns about what upheaval this might cause to society since the truth might even up-end religious beliefs and upset the social order enough to bring Grimm running.
    • Of course, Ruby hasn't been told any of this. Only Pyrrha was. She's still in 'telling the truth will make everything better' stage of her beliefs. She's not thinking about the scale of consequences or even the consequences of scale. She tells people not to panic, but I don't think she's got any understanding of the scale that word has the potential to cover. On top of that, she promptly drops both Glynda and Theodore into the shit as well.
    • Her message is short on any practical information. Yes, it needs to be a short message, but she uses it for all the stuff she acknowledges people won't be able to easily believe (she admits it sounds crazy) and then says Pietro will give them all the useful information that they actually need to be able to prepare for Salem the way she wants them to (or even to come up with a plan to fight back the way she hopes they will). Salem is coming, but she's not saying when; Salem has manipulated organisations, armies and the Grimm, but she's not saying how far Salem's arm reaches; Salem's immortal and unkillable, so she can be stopped from winning but she can't be permanently stopped; she's been defeated before, but Ruby's not going to tell you how or when. Atlas is on the verge of falling, but Ruby's not going to say what works and what doesn't. So, Ruby's message boils down to: we know she's coming, we know she's unkillable, we know she controls the Grimm, and we know Glynda and Theodore already knew about it. But, hey, at least I warned you she's coming, told you to trust the two people who were part of a conspiracy to hide all this from you, and then told you not to panic — amirite?
    • She's basically dumped responsibility for dealing with the entire fallout of her message onto the shoulders of Pietro, Glynda and Theodore. And since Pietro's almost impossible to communicate with right now so he can't do the bit she told Remnant he'd do (pass on the practical information), she's made Glynda and Theodore the sole contacts for every question the entire world will now have about her message, most of which they won't be able to answer: a) because they didn't get the practical information Ruby left to Pietro; and b) because Ruby doesn't know if Glynda and Theodore were as in the dark as Qrow and Ironwood were about some of Ozpin's information on Salem. In fact, she'd have to assume they were. So, from her perspective, the two people she's told the world to rely on for answers are only hearing about some of this information for the very first time, just like everyone else.
      • Disclaimer: I'm ignoring my theory that Glynda and Theodore (and Taiyang, for that matter) actually knew more than Qrow and Ironwood did. That's because, even if my theory is right, Ruby wouldn't have any reason to think they know any more than Qrow and Ironwood did. She would have to work from the premise that some of what she's saying in her message is going to be news to Glynda and Theodore — the very information that causes so much backlash when people find out about it, dumped on their shoulders without warning.
  • She manages to warn the world about Ironwood while she's at it. So, on top of everything else, she's asked Remnant to help Atlas if they can — but if they do turn up to help, don't deal or coordinate with the guy in charge. Let's not forget that there's been a Dust embargo on the world since the fall of Beacon and that Atlas's borders have been closed to prevent the rest of the world even reaching them. So, even if people want to help, can muster up enough help (and they don't have any information on what 'enough' help looks like), they've still got logistical issues like Atlas' closed borders to deal with.
  • Then we need to look at Ruby's assumptions about Salem. She thinks she has it all figured out: why was Salem hiding in the shadows for so long? It's because she's got a weakness; it's because she's scared of humanity; it's because she knows humanity can beat her; her being immortal is irrelevant, let's just all join forces in unity and give her a kicking that'll keep her down. We don't actually know ourselves how we're going to beat her, we don't even know how to save Atlas yet, but that's okay — just ask Glynda and Theodore to come up with a plan for us, and then do it all together because as long as we all hold hands and sing 'Ding Dong the Witch is Gone', we'll win! Of course, we don't know how long that win will last for because she's unkillable, but, hey, this about kicking the can down the road for our descendents to deal with, amirite?
  • In fairness to Ruby, she's not wrong about Salem regarding the concept of a united humanity as a threat, her speech is, after all, a call-back to Salem's Volume 3 speech where Salem acknowledged a united humanity is a threat. She's just right for the wrong reason right now. Especially since it's clear from her smile that Salem wanted this broadcast to happen. I've got visions of Salem walking into her torture boudoir and telling Ozpin and Oscar what Ruby's just done and gloating that he should have told the kids the real reason for why he's been keeping her secret — as in, Jinn may have told the kids what Ozpin was hiding, but she didn't tell them why he's been keeping Salem's existence secret. Not the full reason, anyway. After all, Jinn did indicate that Salem's functioned in the light of day in the past, which should be a giant red flag to the heroes that Ruby's assumptions have some problems.
  • Either way, by the time the story does reach the point where the whole world rallies, it'll obviously be behind Ruby as she's now the face of the resistence.

Visuals and activities during Ruby's speech:

  • The first shot looks like Mistral's train station. So, that's our 'Kingdom of Mistral hears this message' shot.
  • Saphron and Terra hear the message at their home, which is our 'Argus, as a symbol of the rest of Anima, hears this message'. Now they know what Jaune's mission was and what they were aiding when they helped the kids get to Atlas. However, we don't see Cordovin at all, which is a shame. Perhaps it's for the best, given Ruby's warning about Ironwood.
  • The sign that Atlas hears the message is Whitley. He's depressed and apathetic, and he's in his father's study. Notably that portrait of Jacques hangs directly behind him, like Jacques is still haunting him, still breathing down his neck, even though he's not there. It's a clear sign that it needs more than just putting Jacques in gaol to rescue Whitley from his influence. It's also a good sign that Whitley's not getting Jacques the legal help he assumes is coming. (Assuming any lawyers would want to get involved, given that martial law's been declared.)
  • The Slums hear the message. How they do that is probably because of the portable technology that the refugees brought with them, since the Slums likely has very little to their name. So, thanks to the refugees, the Slums' normal residents get the message. However, it's Racist Grandma's family that's sitting with Fiona's uncle and other Faunus (including the fox family, whose child was bonding with Racist Grandma's grandchild). So, what they're getting in return is an education in how to give up their prejudice against the Faunus. I also have to point out that one of the Faunus is sat on bare ground, on the one patch of snow that's by them. It's another wet bum! I'm going to turn wet bums into a drinking game.
  • And then we get our very first look at Vacuo. Red tones of a dying sunset. That's a really nice, unspoken sign of time zones. It's already dark in Solitas, but Vacuo is much further south, and it's only dusk there. Shout-out to Sun and Neptune — and, oh look, no sign of Sage and Scarlet, as usual. No outfit change yet. That'll be saved for when we actually go to Vacuo, I'm sure.
  • The shot of Ilia has mountains in the immediate background, so I'm going to say she's still in Mistral, rather than being in Menagerie. Although there are mountains in the background of Menagerie, rooftop scenes usually emphasised the trees. Even when mountains made it into shot, they were distant and behind the trees. The background shot of Ilia is much more like Mistral, which had mountains very close up and no sense of being surrounded by forest or jungle. There's a plot set up here because Ghira calls her while Ruby is talking, which is almost certainly going to be in response to Ruby's message (especially since it did sound like Blake was recording it). That tells me that Ghira is still in Mistral as well. They did have a lot to do there about human-Faunus relations in the aftermath of Haven, so it makes sense for them to still be there.
  • Joanna's visual tells us that the evacuations are still occurring and haven't finished yet. This is what we'd expect given how little time has passed and the fact that Team YALO couldn't continue helping because Oscar was kidnapped.
  • Penny is starting to really struggle to keep Amity stabilised as the speech continues. And I really didn't want to have to be able to say this, but this shot of Penny confirms that she does wear white hotpants underneath her dress.
  • The way Shopkeep looks at Glynda when Ruby says she can verify what Ruby's saying is the truth. Glynda has never looked so speechless. No pun intended given that she still technically doesn't have a voice actress (although this is a good sign, contrary to the popular fandom theory that she's been killed off because she has no voice actress, that she will indeed get a new one when she needs to come back into the story again). Here's the thing though: Ruby states that Glynda and Theodore can verify what she's saying, but as far as Ruby knows, Glynda and Theodore don't know any more than Qrow and Ironwood did — as far as she knows, some of the information she's revealing is going to be news to them, too.
  • Ironwood and Ace-Ops: Ironwood's calm about the whole thing.
    • Harriet is so upset that she switches the broadcast off at the mention he can't be trusted — exactly as Robyn said, Harriet can't cope with the truth right now.
    • Vine's eyebrows rise and he looks at Harriet when she switches the broadcast off. As usual for him, it wasn't easy to see what he was thinking while Ruby was talking. Harriet's gesture does clearly surprise him, however.
    • Elm's reaction is interesting, however. When Ruby says Ironwood can't be trusted, she looks down. Unlike Vine and Marrow, she doesn't look at Harriet when Harriet shuts off the broadcast, she looks at Marrow.
    • Marrow, however, is the most interesting of the lot: He's smiling while Ruby talks. It's a slight smile, but his face is untroubled, even uplifted, and the smile is definitely present. When Harriet switches off the broadcast, he's initially surprised and visibly upset as he looks her way. And I think this is why Elm glances at him — she notices he's upset with Harriet.
  • Tyrian is watching this news, looking angry, but that's okay because Salem is at his side to comfort him... except, when he looks up at her, he's smiling. And so is she. In fact, she looks delighted. Which means I was right — she wanted them to get Amity up and running; she wanted the message to be broadcast. And this is probably one of the reasons (there seem to be several) why Salem's been sitting around instead of attacking. It's not just about obtaining the Relic or obtaining the password from Oscar, etc. She was giving the heroes time to get their message out to Remnant.
  • Nora's bandaged to the hilt, and Weiss is more worried about her than the message being played. Blake looks thrilled and Ruby looks... well, shocked. Maybe it's the first time she's ever heard the sound of her own voice and she's thinking 'Do I really sound like that?' or perhaps she's just surprised they managed to get Amity working.
  • And Taiyang's first clue that Ruby's okay is ripped from his grasp just as he's hearing how dire her current situation is.


    Visuals 
  • The opening shot is of Amity. It's the first time we've really seen the location it's been parked in. We knew it was an abandoned mine that had suffered an explosion that killed, among others, Ilia's parents, but not much more. It's a boxed-in area, and it's hanging in the sky lower than the mountain peaks around it, so there are visual signs of why this would be a good physical location to park it. Even though it's high in the air, it still feels like it's in a 'protected' place. I like how the purple miasma is beginning to dominate the clouds, with the red lightning. But the moon, barely visible though it is, and the light from Amity are dominating the colour palette (pale blues) for now.
  • As always, the Dust mine looks very pretty with its glowing veins of Dust. Pretty in a dangerous, deadly sort of way. Penny looks very small and vulnerable surrounded by all that volatile Dust, especially with that warning sign right by head (just to remind the audience how volatile it is).
  • They've been really good with their palette contrasts this volume. The blues and blacks, with white and purple overtones of the landscape contrast with the bright colours of the explosion. Not just the yellows, but the purples, ice-blues, water-blues and reds. It's like watching fireworks blending into one explosion, and they've got secondary explosions going off, too. The explosions are very effective, visually. The sky looks really pretty with its mixture of miasma clouds and natural clouds. The natural clouds are highlighted by the moon and the miasma clouds are highlighted by Salem's reds. In between, stars peek out here and there. I think at this point, I'm watching the show for the scenery.
  • The aerial shot of Amity rising from the multi-coloured explosion is really nice.
  • When we first see Ironwood, his map is of the southern end of Solitas, where the kingdom is located. Just as with Volume 7, the kingdom is denoted as 'Atlas-Mantle', so I think that term for the kingdom is here to stay. The icon reflecting the kingdom is the Atlas icon and it's green. To the west-north-west is Salem, depicted by a red giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers (we don't see the teeth, but I'm tickled to see the lionfish fins are present). Amity is located north-east of Atlas-Mantle and west of the first lake — the smaller one, although it's clearly still a vast size for an inland lake. There are lots of yellow dots scattered around. The most extreme ones are to the north-west of Amity, to the east of Atlas-Mantle (and to the south-east of the first lake) and some so far west that they're on the western island. I'm therefore going to guess that these are the military sensors? I don't think they're troops, or groups of Grimm. So the sensors that were knocked off-line in V7 make the most sense to me.
  • I normally make my first post a combination of my thoughts as I was watching the episode and my wider thoughts about it and the plot/characters. However, I spotted a discrepency during the openly salvo of the Penny/Cinder fight that I wanted to double-check.
    • She starts with nine swords because Ace-Ops stole one. When Cinder flechettes her with the knives, Penny forms two defensive wheels, one of four swords and one containing five swords.
    • As she is slammed back into the wall, the wheel of five swords suddenly changes to a wheel of eight swords.
    • I watched this as close to frame-by-frame as I could get (which isn't that close on RT's site. The camera doesn't shift away, there's no break in the scene but suddenly her wheel of five becomes a wheel of eight, as if the extra four swords had always been there.
    • It doesn't look like a normal animation error. I wonder if it's an asset cloaking issue? They've mentioned in DVD Commentaries that they have to 'hide' items or clothing or even people sometimes to achieve certain effects.
    • For example, when Jaune grabs Ren from the shower in Volume 2, Ren's clothing is in the wardrobe — a second version of Ren's character model was stuffed into the wardrobe and his body switched off (making him invisible), leaving only his clothing behind.
    • I wonder if Penny's sword wheel is the same sort of thing — use the same wheel, but switch on and off swords as needed, and someone just forgot to turn the extra swords off for a couple of frames?
  • That's a really nice aerial shot of Solitas and the region in which Atlas-Mantle is located. It's a really nice shot how how the clouds are scattered and the extent of Salem's miasma, and the cracking of the ice into water is really nicely done. However, there's a perspective problem: Atlas is too large for the mountains around it. A side view from the whaleship showed us that Atlas' height doesn't fully clear the highest peaks, and that the size of the city and its floating rock, though vast, does not dwarf the mountains. In this image, the size of Atlas and the whaleship relative to the mountains is completely wrong.
  • I cannot fault, however, that stunningly beautiful shot of Penny framed by Solitas's version of the aurora and the moon. The colours are superb, not in the least because the colour schemes are compatible. The sky is greens, with hints of purples, blacks and the white of the moon. Penny is green and black, with hints of pink (the bow) and white (her blouse). That's a really well-done shot.
  • The final scene of the tundra with the River of Grimm flowing through it towards the unsuspecting distant kingdom is a really nice piece of artwork. I do really like the mood of the sky.

    Likes 
  • When Penny successfully inputs the access code, I like how her smile of delight at it working suddenly fades into sadness as she remembers why she thinks it's a bad thing she's there.
  • When they're outside Amity, I really like that little head tilt with an almost empty expression that Penny does as she's zooming in on Cinder and trying to understand what Cinder's doing. It's a little moment of 'robotic' instead of 'human' from her. I quite like that tiny moment of 'otherness' about Penny.
  • I spotted so many call-backs to Volume 3 (and a few other volumes at times) that it could be turned into a drinking game for this episode. It did become fun to try and spot them as the episode went on.
  • The fight between Maria and Neo was fun. It wasn't just because we had an ancient and crazy Old Master fighting one-handed, it's that we've never seen Neo so frustrated before during a fight. She is so good at what she does, that she's made fights seem effortless. Even that time Ruby Mary Poppins'd her, the fight itself was easy for her. I'm glad they used Maria for this: Neo may be extremely good by the heroes' standards but she's still not a match for the Grimm Reaper, even though Maria's so old and out of practice.
  • Penny's voice acting is phenomenal in this episode in exactly the scenes it needs to be. The way the voice actress says 'Dad' and 'I love you', for example — she nailed those scenes.

    Dislikes 
  • I really don't like Penny's red eyes. They're tomato-red. Even though there are no pupils, this isn't eerie or ominous because it's a far too cheerful shade. it's like someone squeezed a dollop of tomato ketch-up onto her eyes. It's an awful look and just comes across as narm to me.
  • I think they could have been tighter on the animation to show Amity's atmospheric height. It's like they couldn't quite make up their minds how high to have it. As it is, they end up in the thermosphere (or mesopause), which is enough height to be classified as low orbit and therefore as a true satellite or space station. However, Dust hasn't been capable of reaching satellite heights in the past. Ironwood did imply in Volume 7 that they were going with the Amity idea because they'd managed to get some kind of breakthrough in technology to achieve it, but it's never been directly acknowledged. It really needs to be.
  • I'm not a fan of us only seeing Sun and Neptune without any sign of Sage or Scarlet.

    Theories 
  • So, Salem wants the world to know she exists.
    • Just to get it out of the way, Cinder's in trouble. She almost stopped the broadcast from happening, which would have interfered with Salem's desires. Cinder put her desires ahead of Salem's, and Salem warned the audience in V6 that doing this means their own desires would be lost to them. Since Cinder's desire is (among other things) for power, that is what Salem can take away from her. But I've banged on about the Midnight Moment enough. Suffice it to say that I really am expecting it to happen this volume.
    • Like Ironwood, the kids are thinking that Ozpin's method of fighting Salem in the shadows is fighting on her terms and making things easier for her. The fandom tends to think this, too. That's why Ruby's group was determined to get a message out and that's why Ironwood basically let them; he did want a message to go out, too, in the beginning — it's basically Ironwood's plan that Ruby's group is completing.
    • What we're probably going to discover is that everyone doesn't understand the full/real reason why Ozma has been fighting her in the shadows. There's something Jinn didn't reveal about why Ozpin is so afraid of Salem becoming public knowledge — that it's not fighting in the shadows that plays into her hands, but fighting in the light of day.
    • There's obviously a lot Jinn hasn't told us because there are so many gaps and questions regarding what she did show. But, one thing she did show is that there was a time when Salem did function out in the open, where her existence wasn't a secret. Sometimes she was a recluse and sometimes she was a fake god ruling entire kingdoms and plotting world domination.
    • So, while Ruby is right that Salem does regard a united humanity as a 'noticeable threat', she's right for the wrong reason. Ruby's come to that conclusion because she interprets 'working in the shadows' as evidence of being afraid of confrontation, as proof that being in 'the light of day' is her weakness; she seems to believe that Salem working from the shadows now means she's always worked from the shadows. But that isn't what Jinn showed us. That's not what Jinn showed the heroes. Salem used to work in the light of day. The heroes haven't paid enough attention to what Jinn showed them. They need to ask the question: if she used to work in the light of day in the past, what drove her into the shadows? Why is Ozma so afraid of her coming back into the light of day? What hasn't Jinn told them?
  • Maria and Cinder's Grimm arm
    • I don't know if Maria saw enough of Cinder to register the Grimm arm. We actually in the same boat for Ruby, who would have been able to see Cinder's Grimm arm at the end of Volume 7, but has shown no sign of registering that information.
    • Ruby still doesn't know the link between Cinder's appearance and her silver eyes at Beacon. She doesn't even know Cinder's obsessed with her.
    • In Volume 6, Ruby told Maria that her silver eyes reacted to Cinder and Maria told her that perhaps there was something Ruby wasn't seeing.
    • Now, they should both be able to see that Cinder has a Grimm arm, which would explain the Haven incident to them.
    • The heroes still don't know how Amber's power was stolen yet, so they still don't have enough information to connect Cinder's scarring with Ruby, especially given the presence of the Wyvern.
    • While it's not possible right now for a discussion on the silver eyes and Cinder, there is enough information for the conversation to begin happening. Hopefully, the subject will crop up. It might even occur via the Oscar situation, given that we don't even know if Ozpin knew or guessed what had happened to Amber.
  • As fun as it was to watch Maria fight Neo with one arm behind her back, I wonder if there's a more sentimental reason for it, too. Her weapon has lost its twin, and not using her arm in battle (for the single-handed part of the fighting) is almost a symbolism of that loss. Ruby did point out in V1 that weapons become an extension of the Huntsman that wields them. So, losing the weapon is like losing the arm that wields it.
  • It's interesting that so much of Atlesian engineering seems to rely on this idea that everything needs to work in unity and being unable to compensate is one part of it goes down — so, affecting one affects them all. So, I wonder if this is a limitation of Dust-based technology. If Dust is a part of humanity as we all speculate, then it could be the nature of Dust to seek unity. After all, Humanity Revised is a fragment of its original form, a remnant. If Dust is another fragment of that original whole, then the very nature of it could require 'unity' for it to function properly. In the World of Remnant episodes, we're told that the value of Dust is how the Aura triggers it so that its effects can be utilised. That's a unity of Dust and Aura to achieve something together neither can manage alone. Just as the Maiden power sought out its other half in Volume 3, both Dust and Aura seeks that which makes it whole. Or, in this case, 'complete'.
  • The tale of two puppet masters. Pietro is Geppetto, Pinocchio's father and Pietro has controlled Penny's strings remotely through consent, turning her eyes gold. Watts is the puppet master who controls Penny against her will, turning her eyes red.
    • There is a villainous puppet master in the original story: Mangiafuoco, who has red eyes. In the Disney version, Mangiafuoco is renamed Stromboli (but retains the red eyes). In most retellings of Pinocchio, Stromboli is the name that gets used.
    • Stromboli does control Pinocchio for a time, until Pinocchio escapes. Geppetto and Stromboli do come into conflict over Pinocchio's fate. In some retellings, Stromboli is connected to the whale that ends up swallowing Geppetto and Pinocchio.
    • So, if Pietro is Geppetto, and Watts is the rival puppeteer, Watts has to be playing the role of Stromboli. He gets bonus points for be connected to a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers that is itself inspired by the story's whale. That does bode well for Penny's ability to escape Watts' control eventually... but, since Pinocchio went into the whale willingly, I still maintain that Penny will make the choice to complete whatever the hack mission is for an agenda of her own.
  • Penny's fall. Now, re-entry should burn her down to her metal, and we don't know if her metal could survive.
    • I did mention at the beginning of Volume 7 that I was concerned about a vaporisation scenario occurring to kill her off in a way she can't come back from. My scenario was that she willing sacrifices herself for others in a manner that will end up getting her killed that way.
    • So, this scenario does actually work for that scenario. However, since she became the Winter Maiden at the end of Volume 7, I've had the theory that she didn't simply gain the Maiden power from Fria, she gained a fully functional Aura (something she didn't seem to have previously, given that she was running solely on a fraction of Pietro's Aura).
    • So, while this re-entry burn does fit my original scenario, it also fits my thoughts about how we'd learn she has a fully functional Aura if that is indeed the benefit of the magic she gained. Whether an Aura can survive re-entry burn is certainly a big question — I'm guessing most Auras won't survive it. However, magic might.
    • So, regardless of how it happens, I do believe she'll survive this fall even though it fits my vaporisation theory from Volume 7. The reason for that is because they still need to open the Vault. At this stage of the story, it doesn't make sense to pass on the Maiden power unless it's to someone who is already involved, and that would be Winter, Weiss or Nora (I do not believe Ruby is eligible for Maiden powers).
  • So, if it's not about Maidens, what was her eye-shine moment?
    • Clearly, she realised something in that moment. Her eyes become suddenly alert and widen in surprised realisation before she closes her eyes. I speculate that, in that moment, she realises she's been hacked. The re-entry has broken the connection between the swords that's needed for the hack to work. This has given her enough time to realise what's been done to her and why, and that the vulnerability is her swords. Her 'I love you' to Pietro is because she's made a decision that she isn't sure she'll survive, so she's saying her goodbye now, while she still can.
    • This is where my play-along scenario comes in. Penny is going to go through with the hack commands because — just as going along with Ironwood benefited Watts' own goals — going along with the hack benefits Penny's own goals, which brings her back to the idea that she raised regarding taking the Winter Maiden and Relic of Creation to Salem.
    • Now, there are two options for the hack scenario.
      • She comes out of re-entry capable of resisting the hack and plays along from that point.
      • Her distorted, electronic 'I love you' contains a coded message. Between the broken phrases she spoke over the comm and the final 'I love you', Pietro has enough information to figure out she's being hacked and starts trying remotely anti-hack Penny. He will eventually win, but Penny will able to play along for a while so that no-one will immediately realise that she's been de-hacked.
      • The opening credits suggest the second option is more likely given that it implies a hacking war between Pietro and Watts.
      • One of the consequences is that she'll need to end her dependence on wire-controlled swords and controls them as a Maiden instead, therefore solving that hacking vulnerability.
  • Now, purely for fun, although I don't think this is going to happen, let's explore a scenario where Penny does actually lose her Maiden powers to someone else as a combined result of the re-entry burn and hack.
    • The clearing up of her eyes can allow for a 'last thought' of an eligible candidate before she tells Pietro she loves him.
    • Technically, Pietro would seem like the last thought, and he's not eligible meaning that the Maiden power would go to someone random. But the 'I love you' was a decision moment for her.
    • So, we've got enough animation to suggest she has the opportunity to think of the Maiden transfer candidate. We've also got enough to randomise the recipient (her last words to her ineligible father).
    • So, we're going with the non-random option: she thought of someone to pass the power to. Why would she pass the power? Because she knows she's been hacked. She can't fight the hack, but she can go into a 'death' scenario (reboot) thereby triggering the Maiden power being passed on. She'll turn up at the Vault, as per the hack, but there's no Maiden power, so the Relic remains protected until they can figure out who the new Maiden is. That would explain the brief confusion in Ironwood's office: the reboot isn't because of what Watts did, it's because Penny's protecting the Maiden power by making sure it's been passed on by the time she reaches the Vault. To pass it on, she simulates death: by rebooting.
    • In Volume 7, my main candidates for the Maiden power were Weiss, Nora and Neo. I personally preferred Nora. I flagged at the time that Weiss cuddling up to Penny at the end of V7 was a flag for something. However, we're now in a situation where Penny has admitted she wishes she wasn't the Maiden, has been made to feel guilty for 'stealing' the power off Winter, and blames herself for what happened to Nora.
    • In this scenario, I think Nora would be the primary candidate. While Winter may be a candidate in terms of passing the power to the one who 'should' have it, the problem is Winter's continued loyalty to Ironwood. Since this scenario is about protecting the Maiden power from Ironwood even though she's been hacked, then Winter cannot be the recipient Penny would choose. That leaves Ruby (whom I actually think is ineligible), Weiss, Blake, Yang and Nora. Of those, Nora's critical condition might be the swing factor — she sacrificed herself for Penny; perhaps the Maiden power can help her.
    • So, Nora's back up and functional because she's the Winter Maiden and Penny turns up to the Vault half-exposed to her metal, burned, robotic and terrifying, but still functional and in some desperate need of restoration work. We'd again have another parallel to Volume 3, except that Penny wouldn't require the kind of rebuild that was required after V3 — so no Aura sacrifices needed.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 8th 2020 at 4:10:39 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Gaogaigar54 Since: Jan, 2020
#3714: Dec 8th 2020 at 5:33:14 PM

[up][up]I think it's worth noting that given how rare SEWS are Ruby and Maria may well have been the only ones currently around.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3715: Dec 8th 2020 at 6:00:59 PM

[up][up]...So you're saying we can still have "Maiden Nora" without losing Penny?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#3716: Dec 8th 2020 at 7:18:33 PM

[up]Hell, yeah!

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#3717: Dec 8th 2020 at 7:48:55 PM

Three cheers for that idea!

Penny arrives at the Vault, no longer the Maiden.

They ask who has the powers now, if Penny gave them to someone else.

Nora cackling in the background surrounded by lightning.

Ironwood: ...well, shit.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3718: Dec 8th 2020 at 7:57:54 PM

I'm still waiting on Nora backstory after all, and they haven't been subtle in demonstrating she has some tie to Solitas. So her being in this coma is actually the perfect opportunity: have her suffer a Near-Death Experience where she flashes back to her early life and how she ended up in Kuroyuri, and then sees a light representing the Maiden powers. Once she sees them, she wakes up as the new Winter Maiden!

  • And for extra thematic points, when she gets the powers, she sees Fria, due to the whole "Freyja" idea to go with Nora's "Thor", making Fria technically her grandmother, tying back to how RWBY Chibi subtly foreshadows the main series with this line from Nora.
    Nora: Come on, my granny punches harder! Seriously, she is scary strong.


Then we still get Penny having affirmed she's a real girl and not at risk of dying from trying to take the Maiden Powers, Nora has significant Plot Armor protecting her from dying till at least the final season, and she gets to kick Ironwood's ass as a full on demigod while he has no way of taking control of her or stopping her!

It could also quite literally make her Penny's sister since she'd have a piece of Penny as part of her, and the Ginger Sisters would be able to make it out of this mess together.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 8th 2020 at 11:02:47 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#3719: Dec 8th 2020 at 8:55:32 PM

M Mmmmmmm what if nora become the winter maiden and battle a huge serpent grimm that is under the ice?.

You cant be thor without your jormungader.

Granted we all know exactly what would happen then.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3720: Dec 8th 2020 at 9:00:06 PM

[up]... Do you want Nora to die?

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#3721: Dec 8th 2020 at 9:03:43 PM

Random thought, but seeing as we have the floating Grimm dragon already we might get a Sigurd parallel, which would be interesting. Probably won't get a Brynhild parallel, of course, but that's alright.

Come to think of it Salem's story parallels a bit with the Fafnir story. Not a lot but it's interesting.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3722: Dec 8th 2020 at 9:19:11 PM

Well, I found my awful take of the week, courtesy of the absolute hack that is adel aka. That Volume 8 is ruining Nora's character. Yeah, putting him under "Hate for Views Critics" was definitely warranted. Especially when he posted a reaction of Episode 5 less than a day after it was released, ignoring the fact Roosterteeth doesn't like reactions until the episode is publicly released under the rationale of "I paid for a first membership, so I can post my reaction if I want to."

Lord I wish it was possible to completely block Youtube channels.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 8th 2020 at 12:24:32 PM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#3723: Dec 8th 2020 at 9:22:21 PM

[up][up][up]No, of course no *nervious laugh*

But I dont see nora as winter maiden, I don think any main chararter will be a maiden since they are too OP and this show already is having problem with that a times.

Also nora is a red head and we know what happen to them in this show.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3724: Dec 8th 2020 at 9:25:30 PM

[up]...Penny is pretty much a main character at this point. Cinder is a main character even if a villain. We already have two maidens in the main cast, and one is a newbie, and the other is a complete joke.

And knock it off with the redhead jokes. Last one to die was Adam, and he only makes No. 3 since Penny's death didn't stick.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 8th 2020 at 12:27:07 PM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Altris from the Vortex Since: Aug, 2019 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#3725: Dec 8th 2020 at 9:28:35 PM

Huh. Regardless I find it a bit annoying that the Plot Armor for the main cast will likely remain. Let's say Atlas falls and people die. Who bites it? Pietro, maybe Whitley, any Mauve Shirts that I've forgotten, but the main cast will be fine. Really lowers the drama, especially when it'll probably be a cliffhanger.

So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr

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