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And ye that was luck, hell they get Watts only because Willow got cameras in jacques house(which is in himself a near deus ex machina) without it they woudnt know watts was still alive and Jacques cut a deal with it, probably dooming mantle to death.
Mantle save now?....I mean between watts/tyran atack and this how much timie it have pass? they havent save mantle, only delay his fate.
Pretty much one of the biggest complain was blake and weiss storyline didnt intersect more given how it should.
Hell im pretty sure Adam die without even knowing ruby, weiss or any other people blake care about and he was suposed to destroy, is kind of hilariously silly in that way.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"@Rebel I've....never liked that metaphor, It makes it seem like just arguing or being in a conflcit is in of itself wrong. It's an updated 'It dosent matter who started it!' Authority figures give when theyre too lazy to actually settle things.
With the mantle situation.....Why aren't they exaclty?
The thing that actually led to things going wrong was James jumping to Paranoia after the chess piece thing. It was him jumping to 'With us or against us' instead of actually trying to think things through.
What makes the girls responsible for that?
Put aside if you think them lying to him was right or not,when it comes to contributing to this problem, he was fine right up until he fell for Cinders trick, which he fell for because he was 'So Predictable'. And even if you can argue there actions may have helped James with making the wrong choice, it was still ultimately entirely his decision that led to things going wrong. So in this context 'Most of the Blame' would basically be 90% of the Blame.
@Unknown
Even then, the reason it was Found was specifically because of the Girls thinking something was up and Weiss deciding to Investigate at the house.
And this wasnt Mantles fate, they Geniunly did Save Mantle the first time. It got doomed again because of evacuations being called off and ironwood deciding to abandon the rest of the world.
Edited by Snoketrope on Dec 7th 2020 at 5:52:01 AM
Bow to the PrototypeI hesitate to assign blame to the protagonists, when the other party involved holds all the power and has proven himself to be unreliable and completely unwilling to cooperate or listen to reason. He will accept nothing short of complete obedience and surrender.
Ironwood is the proverbial bully that keeps moving the line over to his side, then demands that everyone else meet him half-way. He's moving the proverbial goalposts further and further away from anything reasonable, and literally the entire crisis hinges on his completely unwillingness to even consider other options.
The protagonists have spent the first day of the volume figuring out how to salvage the abandoned plans, accomplishing one and assisting on the other that is being handled by actual professionals.
In the same time frame, Ironwood has murdered a government official for talking back to him, issued an authorization of Lethal Force against the protagonists, sent the Ace-Ops to attack them a second time, and given Watts the literal keys to the kingdom by accident.
He's accomplished not only jack-and-shit, he's actively preventing everyone else's hard work from reaching the final stage. Everyone else has been working and making things happen, while Ironwood has taken vital resources and stubbornly sits on them.
Basically, he's the dude hoarding the Lifeboats and refusing to let anyone near them at gunpoint. Then demanding that a handful of people get in and leave with him immediately, when they've been working themselves to the bone to get everyone to the lifeboats.
Things would not be are dire as they are, with the kingdom facing extinction and mass death, if Ironwood weren't sitting up in his base actively preventing them from saving people.
And honestly, giving in and just doing what Ironwood wants raises the previously-discussed issue about him basically being Salem's Dad 2.0, an insane tyrant ruling over people he's keeping prisoner. Because once he has what he wants, it's going to be impossible to convince him to change his mind on anything else and he's probably just going to continue getting worse until he personally causes Salem's victory.
Edited by harostar on Dec 7th 2020 at 8:54:21 AM
He was already on a downward spiral months before they even arrived. He already started a police state, closed off Atlas from the world and was actively putting a city in danger.
And again, he was fine right up until Cinder pulled the Chess piece trick. And Cinder commented that he was 'So predictable' when doing so
Its highly debatable if The Protagnists actions actually had a significant role in why James pulled a Face–Heel Turn, or even if it's there fault and not his for jumping to 'How can I trust anyone?' Instead of considering that there was a reason they did't trust him or told Robyn.
But even if they did, ultimately there role would be pretty minor.
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I'll agree that RWBY should have told Ironwood the truth long ago, if only because he was wasting resources that could have been better utilized elsewhere.
But Ironwood is a big boy. He's responsible for his own choices and he's been making poor ones and learning nothing from them for a while now.
Edited by Chaosjunction on Dec 7th 2020 at 9:23:32 AM
Ironwood was already on that downward spiral long before they showed up. He was already ranting, raving, and smashing desks back in Volume 4. He'd gotten bad enough by the time they arrive in Volume 7 that Pietro outright discusses being concerned about his mental state.
While he lashes out at them for hiding things initially and for talking to Robyn, he doesn't do that until he's already gone off the deep end. Prior to lashing out at them, he's suggesting that the Mantle refugees are a front to sneak terrorists into Atlas. So by the time those things are suddenly enormous offenses, he's already devolved into believing anyone that isn't mindlessly obedient is against him.
Edited by harostar on Dec 7th 2020 at 9:25:57 AM
The "blame" I mean is largely Yang and Blake telling Robyn about Amity. Put aside the fact that Robyn turned out to be someone that could be trusted and whether or not she was justified in her behavior in Volume 7, and look at it from an objective angle. Robyn is someone they knew nothing about outside of a single file of information with a good portion redacted, were told to bring in because her actions were interfering with their efforts to launch Amity, and both were aware that Salem had agents in Mantle including Tyrian. They had zero reason to believe she could be trusted with important information about Amity outside of being tired of subterfuge and arresting who they thought was a good woman.
Ironwood's actions are his own, but Yang and Blake share the blame for pushing him to the point where he'd make said decisions. Just because Robyn turned out to be an ally doesn't justify what they did. The ends don't justify the means. They had a part in setting the stage for the Tinman to die, and the Ironmonster to rise.
And look where we are now as a result.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 9th 2020 at 1:00:46 PM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.Getting Robyn on board with the plan was basically the one option they actually had
James needed to get Mantle on his side somehow, she was the best way to do that. And they had to end the conflcit with her and James somehow. Trying to Trust her was the best decison, it was what the charachters had kept suggesting he do. Was it a perfect option with absolutely no risk involved? No, but it was the best option given the alternatives. And they wouldn't have had to do it if James had done it earlier.
And speaking of, let's go into when they decide to tell Robyn, and what they were supposed to do. They did it when the other option was Assault a Fellow Huntress who was just trying to help her town.
Bow to the PrototypeI think Yang and Blake's actions are a drop in the bucket, in the grand scheme of things. They had been pushing Ironwood to talk to Robyn especially after Tyrian personally showed up to attack her and her supporters. Ironwood's response is a very dismissive, vague that he might be willing to "offer her a deal" after having her arrested and only if she forces Mantle to comply with his demands.
That....definitely isn't reassuring and we see that basically everyone but Ren was troubled by that discussion.
I think the ideal outcome would be that decision becoming a building point for not only their personal development, but something the characters revisit later. Something that they look back on and question, similar to the moment that led them to it which involved regret over killing Adam. It's a Hard Choice(tm) that worked out in terms of Robyn, but also ended up causing issues with Ironwood once he was already diving off the deep end.
It wasn't a perfect decision, and it definitely could have been handled differently. I think even if they apologized or seemed ashamed, it wouldn't have helped with Ironwood in that moment because he was already so far gone. Just like the secret about Salem's immortality, it's something that has so many "What ifs" in terms of when the right time was to discuss it with Ironwood.
And I disagree heavily with it being fine if they simply let Ironwood run away. Because as has been discussed multiple times, their primary issue is that Ironwood is holding the keys. They have a bunch of people that are stranded in the cold, surrounded by the Grimm, and now have a weird death river headed for them. The means to evacuate them completely are being actively and maliciously withheld.
Because Ironwood is doing exactly what Glynda yelled at him about waaay back in the second volume. He's engaged in a dick-measuring contest, and he's using the lives of his entire kingdom as collateral. He's more concerned with forcing people to obey him, than actually accomplishing anything constructive.
Let's say that they send Penny back to Ironwood, and she opens the Vault. Ironwood has Atlas moved away.
Their primary issue remains unresolved, because he's almost certainly not going to let them have airships. And Ruby started things out with suggesting an emergency launch of Amity, which he refused. So they've been throwing options at him and getting told "No" because he won't consider anything but his way.
"Even then, the reason it was Found was specifically because of the Girls thinking something was up and Weiss deciding to Investigate at the house. "
All of them though jacques getting away was weird, it dosent change their victory was handle by a outside factor and considering how Weiss point whitlet is clar she didnt get shit of waht willow was trying to said.
"And speaking of, let's go into when they decide to tell Robyn, and what they were supposed to do. They did it when the other option was Assault a Fellow Huntress who was just trying to help her town. "
And if robyn didnt have her trust semblance? or something go wrong in the fight or R Obyn was salem agent(or being spie by one)?
James told ruby know for the simple reaosn salem was already there and any action like that can cause altas to colapse and so far the have being right: Ruby dosent have a way to deal with salem, in fact she sent her hound, oscar is now it her claws and she hold a relic.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"![]()
It's still better than having to constantly fight the Ace-Ops, Penny being hunted like she was just a piece of machinery, and Ironwood constantly getting in the way of them actually trying to help Mantle and warn Remnant.
And I will always oppose the idea that it's a good idea to pick an option with very high risk and little chance of success. I don't care if the intention was good, they took a gamble that had a very high chance of going wrong. The mere fact they did that and justify it with "It worked out didn't it?" does not justify doing so. Any action can be justified if it ends up working out for someone, hence the phrase "The Ends Justify the Means". I disagree. Some means are too reprehensible/idiotic/asinine to be justifiable. And going behind everyone's backs to tell someone they don't know sensitive information is plain stupid.
Ironwood's behavior is not in the right, but neither was Yang and Blake's. They not only betrayed Ironwood's trust, they betrayed Ruby's trust. They instead chose to trust someone they only thought was a good person, despite once having thought that of Cinder, Emerald, and Mercury before the Fall of Beacon. Or Lionheart just because Ozpin picked him to be in the Ozluminati. Blind Faith and reckless idiocy because of said faith is something I will always oppose, and had someone pulled what Yang and Blake did in real life and I was in their unit, I wouldn't hesitate to rip them a new one for how reckless their actions were. I would then shoot Ironwood in the head or run him through with a blade just to make sure he can't go through with his stupidity.
They are in a war, they do not have the luxury of doing what is morally right when there are more important things to worry about. They don't have the luxury of being the "good guys" and sticking to some form of ethics. Or need I remind everyone about how the Ozluminati gaslit Pyrrha into becoming the next Fall Maiden despite the possibility of Death of Personality? Is that something morally right? No. Was it their best option with the lowest amount of risk? Yes. Was it their only option? No, since they could have let Amber die and hoped her power wouldn't go to Cinder. But they didn't, because it had too high a risk.
A war is not a place for morality, nor is it a place to complain about secrets and being forced to put innocent people in prison. This is not the place for heroes or villains, for Angels or Devils. They are huntsmen, and their job, no, their duty is to make sure Salem doesn't end Remnant. And if they continue to hold on to concepts like morality, then Salem will continue to win, since she doesn't give a rats ass about morality. If they want to live to see the end of this war, they need to take whatever moral scruples they have, and throw them away.
The more I see of this conflict, the more I come to realize: Ozpin may have been in the wrong to just pretend like everything was fine, but he is infinitely better at handling this war than any of the heroes or Ironwood will ever be. He can make the tough decisions, he can accept that sometimes morality must be discarded. He'll feel bad about it after the fact, but he understands in a war with Salem, you can't allow trivial things like morals or ethics get in the way. You stand by your decisions, you keep your humanity without being hindered by arbitrary concepts like morals, and you keep getting back up no matter how many times you're knocked down. You fight not for concepts like "good" or "evil". You fight because if you don't, you will die. You do what you must, and know where the line is in regards to what needs to be done.
It's why I've said abandoning Mantle and Atlas is the best option. It's morally reprehensible, but its the option that ensures they survive with the least amount of risk. They can't help anyone if they die. And surviving is the most important part right now. Is it morally wrong to leave two cities to die? Yes. Is it an acceptable option if it means surviving that doesn't become unjustifiable? Yes.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 7th 2020 at 11:05:42 AM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Whether Ironwood gets what he wants or not, they remain up shit creek without a paddle as long as he refuses to let them resume the final stage of the evacuation. Their horrible situation is 100% on his shoulders, because he's decided he would rather kill an entire city that is his responsibility than change his mind on something.
All he has to do to get access to the Vault is give them a means to transport the people they've been evacuating. His absolute refusal to even negotiate is the reason things are so dire.
He has multiple options. Ruby has already tried to compromise with him. It didn't work.
Very well then.
I hope your opinion of me wasn't lowered in any way by what I argued.
If it makes you feel better Rebel Falcon, I agree with a lot of what you say. My thoughts are that we all have do do things we are uncomfortable with at some point. If we beat ourselves up afterwards, that's our problem.
I also believe that if a leader is morally clean, they need a right hand who can do the dirty work. Likewise, a morally grey leader needs a right hand to keep them from going too far.
We all have to answer to the call of fate when it beckons us, even if it is not at a moment of our choosing.![]()
Absolutely not. Your arguments are well-reasoned and you put thought behind them, and definitely accurate for many works out there. I think in many horror works in particular, your argument would be spot-on and absolutely the correct course of action.
(IE: Ripley refusing to break quarantine at the beginning of Alien being the correct decision. Any zombie movie where it's impossible to save the majority of people. So on and so forth.)
I just don't think that's going to prove true for this particular work. RWBY has had a fairly consistent argument that giving up your humanity, making cruel decisions, and giving up hope are the wrong choices. It's presented those kinds of dark, pragmatic decisions as consistently being the wrong one particularly with characters like Ironwood and Raven.
I'm leaning towards expecting an incredibly rough volume, with tragedy and pain galore. But ultimately the narrative validating the choice to (as the opening says) "Fight for every life" even if the heroes are left questioning their choices and realizing whether they could have made better ones.
I think it's going to be a harsh lesson for them, but their choice to not abandon the course will be overall the correct one.
Edited by harostar on Dec 7th 2020 at 11:19:24 AM
I agree with your reasoning as well and hell, have ozpin being there from the start, probably the whole mess would be avoid it.
Is kinda disturbing how RWBY and james are left handing the moment he is not there, I kinda give the impression they are somewhat depent of him.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"Trusting Robyn did not have 'That Low' a success Rate. But even then, if you still think so, that dosent change the fact it's still the least bad option available.
The alternative was Praying that either the whole political crisis with Mantle would magically Fix itself or Hope to god for some reason after getting assaulted and taken in shell somehow trust the man who she already has a largely negative opinion of.
And the other stuff would, in large part, go against a large part of the Atlas Arcs themes.
The point of the Atlas arc is to Deconstruct the entire concept that Logic and Moraltiy are opposing to eachother, James and the Ace Ops have that mindset, and its consistently shown that not only are there decisons Amoral, they are also poorly thought out and bites them in the ass on the long run, It says that no, Making your people suffer is not you making a 'Sacrifice' or making the 'Tough Decisons'.
What you bring up is an extremely specfic example, the charachters aren't in the position of being Soldiers who signed on to the Job and got sent out to some war that may or may not be the fault of the Govermant they work for because its there job to serve there country regardless of there thougts on a Complicated situation and have to do horrible things to survive. They are actually involved in this fight to help people, to save people and to Solve the big problem they are involved in.
For the most part, when it comes to real life and actually solving or dealing with problems, the idea that Logic and morality are seperate is kind of a Myth. Most of the time you see the Logic Vs morality issue come up? Alot of them are basically just lies. Torture dosent work, The death penalty does little to lower crime, the Nukes on Japan didn't save lives and was completely worthless, having an ultra strict police force, In things like America, actually made Crime worse, and 'Mussoloni made the train Run on time' is one of the most hysterically inaccurate myths ever.
There's bound to be exceptions as life is random and there can be very specifc contexts, but there's alot to suggest that, in large part, Compassion, giving a crap about people are not just childish traits or that you need to Disregard those things in the 'Real world' as the govermants gotta make the 'Tough Decisons' just plain and out isn't true.
I feel like that's largely what the Atlas arc is supposed to be about, showing that Morals do matter, that disregarding people's well being isn't logical, that those who go on about casting aside morality in favour of Cold logic tend to be irrational and cause more problems then they solve.
Bow to the PrototypeIndeed, I think everyone is basically longing for Ozpin's guidance right now. Heck, Ironwood spent the entire last volume kind of desperately trying to get Ozpin to come back out.
Adding further concerning the "Abandon Mantle: Right call or not?" whole thing:
There absolutely would be a point when it was necessary to leave people to their fates. I think the heart of the matter is that Ironwood jumped the proverbial gun, and hasn't reconsidered now that they do have time to save more people.
That critical point of no return, when it becomes necessary to swallow their pride and accept that they can't save everyone is coming. They just haven't reached that point, but their efforts are stalled. I'm really curious to see how the Grimm River changes the entire discussion, and what ideas are floated once it becomes clear that hunkering down in the crater isn't going to be an option for much longer.
While we've discussed the issue of transportation here, it hasn't been explicitly discussed by the characters. We get the indication that the Mantle forces don't have the option of doing more right now than gathering people in a central location they can keep warm and defend. That suggests a lack of mass transportation, but I wonder whether that discussion is going to happen soon. Atlas is an industrial kingdom with an economy focused on exports. Therefore, the question becomes where the means for large-scale shipments of dust and military equipment are and whether any of it might be accessible with some effort.
I keep wanting to look to the Schnees. The primary mover of goods in the kingdom, with a major industrial mining operation and their own private fleet of ships.
Which it bring to the point here:.....is really the point of not return or not? One can said James jump the gun to early but maybe he just saw the writing of the wall.
in the end the big question is there: HOW the will fight salem, they can even do that?.
Questions, questions and more questions...
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"They don't need to decisively beat Salem here.
The first 5 episodes have covered a single day, and during that time Salem has been holding her forces in position. Likewise, Ironwood has been hyper-focused on capturing Penny and his entire army is on stand-by going ???? ??? ??? with no idea what is happening.
Salem arrived around sunrise, and it's night time now. That entire day has been wasted, when entire sectors of Mantle have been evacuated to a single location. Therefore, the point of No Return hasn't been reached because the River hasn't reached civilization yet and they've had an entire day where it was possible to start moving people to anywhere that isn't Mantle.
In terms of the ever-present issue of "How do we move these people?", my brain recalled the actual story of how the Berlin Wall fell. What happened was that some government official made a mistake, which resulted in massive crowds showing up at the check-points along the Wall expecting to be let into West Germany.
The soldiers on the ground, guarding those check-points, basically had no idea what to do. They were stuck there with massive crowds expecting to be let through, and no orders from above on how to handle it. Finally, an officer dealing directly with the situation basically said Fuck It and told his subordinates to let people through.
From the snippets of conversation we overhear in Central Command, no one outside Ironwood's inner circle and the Council knew what was going on. Everyone else is in the dark completely, wondering why they haven't been given orders and just plain confused. As things continue, it becomes increasingly likely that Ironwood's chess board metaphor is going to happen with him losing control over his own forces.
All it takes, as shown with the Berlin Wall, is someone with some authority starting things by going: Fuck it.
Edited by harostar on Dec 7th 2020 at 12:40:36 PM
That would be rather fitting, in trying to control everything, Ironwood loses control of everything instead.
Though that still means they'd need to avoid the Aerial Grimm Salem has so the ships don't get shot down.

@Rebel Falcon To me not technically being a slave isn’t really much of an difference. And I have the Amity Arena game and I read Blade Dash Adam’s bio and from it’s description it didn’t really sound like he was there by choice, describing how he dreamed of leaving the mines behind to make his place in the world. Granted this is vague but with the SDC’s “controversial labor forces” and “questionable business partners” it doesn’t really lead me to good conclusions. Even being generous and saying he wasn’t legally their property doesn’t make it better, especially with how Faunus were established to not really have equal rights, which is demonstrated in how he was branded like cattle.
Though there’s an issue in that Yang states to Adam “Did she make that promise to you or the person you were pretending to be?” which implies that, at the least when he met Blake, he was never actually genuine to begin with and fooled Blake into thinking he was. Which isn’t helped by how his rebuttal to this question is to basically ignore the question and say Blake didn’t think he was good enough for her. It seems as if Yang’s statement is supposed to be right.
Even in the flashbacks that were supposed to show us that he WAS good, it’s still rather vague on that front. While yes he did fight off the people shooting at them, they were going to kill them, him included, so technically he could have just been done it for self-serving reasons rather than actual altruism. He never actually put himself in harms way by fighting them, he pretty much curb stomped them. And considering how he seemed to later see the WF as a tool to fulfill his ends it’s possible that he saved them just because it would be a severe waste of allies.
Now these are indeed a consequence of the show’s problems with show, don’t tell. I agree on that front. Which is why I think it was a mistake to both kill off Adam before the characters made it to Atlas and essentially liquify the White Fang after Vol. 5.
To me I think they should have followed up Adam’s last scene in Vol. 5, him looking upon Team MEH as they escape to fight another day, with him joining Salem’s forces in Vol. 6 to get the support he needs to get revenge on his enemies. And with her plan to have her goons cause trouble up in Atlas before coming there herself, I think this is a rather feasible change that could have worked. I mean if she wants to divide humanity and cause chaos so why not exploit the obvious Human/Faunus divide?
She does a bit of this in with the conflict between Atlas and Mantle but with the show’s displaying racist humans in Mantle she could have easily gone further and have Mantle itself start tearing each other apart while they both hold resentment towards those at the top. And with Adam’s personal past in Atlas you could have explored his character more and develop his grudge against the SDC and show that he and the rest of the WF had legitimate reasons to hate the company. At the least make it clear exactly what the SDC is infamous for and make it just as evil as the White Fang.
Which can be done since Jacques is more important in Volume 7 and it would have added more catharsis to his downfall if we directly saw the depths he allowed his company to sink too, which also gives the characters more personal motivation to want to take him down. I think this would be an improvement because brushing off the implications of his scar the way the show did has negative consequences on the characters.
Like Blake not directly confronting either Ironwood or Jacques about the treatment of Faunus in Atlas after Adam’s face reveal and instead having scenes of her cheerfully eating cake and getting ready to go out with Yang to the dance floor makes it come off as if she’s ignoring the issues that face her people while indulging in the benefits she has. This is in part why some people consider Blake to be more privileged than other Faunus, she can technically afford to do nothing about the status quo since it doesn’t really affect her as badly as others in the show. Blake’s character really needed to be more proactive against Jacques.
By the way sorry I didn’t respond sooner, I don’t always have the time to get down and chat.