@bandersnitch, my intention wasn't to downplay or come across as dismissive. In terms of the main cast, the Schnees are our primary example of an abusive background. Their experiences were a completely different kind of suffering and it's really impossible to compare different forms of trauma or abuse. It was more exploring how Weiss and Winter, in spite of their similar background/experiences, have ended up in very different places as a result of their choices and the people around them.
I would say that while Adam's experiences were extreme, in terms of the brand he received, we know that his experiences are not entirely unique. Not just in terms of "basically a slave to the SDC working in the mines" is a common issue for the Faunus and for most people living in Mantle.
I was more thinking about how the series at large kind of establishes that many people have traumatic, painful childhoods. Life on Remnant is fairly harsh and painful, especially outside the kingdoms or in places like Vacuo. We're told that horrific experiences and trauma are a common thing in Vacuo in particular, and as a result they have a culture that is both stoic about personal loss/suffering and extremely focused on celebrating the good.
Adam is someone that had a horrible childhood, that ultimately was twisted by it and used it as an excuse to hurt others. The series has Choice as a major theme, and I think Adam's story is ultimately a cautionary one about letting yourself be consumed by your inner demons.
Also, another addition to the "Ozma, no" folder.
Edited by harostar on Dec 4th 2020 at 10:03:21 AM
I've made long posts about this subject in the past and tied it in to my theory about why the Vaults appear as they do and how the flavour of each Kingdom reflects its Relic. Obviously, this was before Fria and Penny, so I hadn't included them, but they both fit the theme — Fria created art and Penny is a new concept of the creation of life (an artificial life form with a soul and Aura).
Each Maiden also had flaws connected to their Relics: Amber was denied the ability to choose her successor; knowledge terrifies Raven and sent her running from both Ozpin and Salem (note, knowledge also became too much of a burden for the previous Spring, too); Fria was kept in hiding, which meant the only thing she had left as the medium through which her artistic creativity could flow was her mind — which was failing; Cinder became the Fall Maiden by denying the previous one any choice in deciding who her successor might be, denied Pyrrha the choice to become the Fall Maiden, and has been constantly denied choice by Salem since becoming the Fall Maiden, and by everyone she's tried to take other Maiden powers from; in the same vein, the Summer Maiden should have a flaw that's connected to the Relic of Destruction.
To sum up my speculation about the Summer Maiden, it's tied to my speculation about the Vaults. My posts on this have become quite long in the past, so I'll just give you a brief summary of the Relic of Destruction and the Summer Maiden.
Very briefly, I believe each Vault is telling a story that warns visitors seeking the Relic within to use the power wisely. The Vault of the Spring Maiden tells the story of the moment of Humanity Prime's destruction at the Domain of Light. The Vault of the Winter Maiden tells of the recreation of humanity, the fractured Humanity Revised. The Vault of the Fall Maiden is a discussion all by itself.
Vault of the Summer Maiden
I am expecting this to be the story of the Great War's end. The terrible moment when the King of Vale took to the battlefield, ending the war, but also devastating Vacuo so badly that it hasn't recovered even eighty years later. The message here is be extremely careful about wielding the power of destruction, even if your intentions are good.
The Summer Maiden
With each new Maiden introduction, we've been introduced to increasingly older and more experienced Maidens. Fria is the first 'fully realised' Maiden we've encountered, but she was so close to death that she could only give us a taste of the power of a fully-realised Maiden.
The Summer Maiden will not be as old as Fria, but she'll be older than Raven and far more experienced. She will be a fully realised Maiden, but at the zenith of her power — like the sun at the height of its day. Like Vacuo, like my theory of the Vault of the Summer Maiden, I believe her life will be a lesson on destructive power, and she will spend most of her time preferring not to use her power at all, even to the point of her own personal detriment.
I therefore expect her to come across as a non-fighter (even if she can fight), someone who is focussed on bringing people together in peace, and finds ways to protect people without using her power. I got a little excited when I first read After the Fall because there is a character in there who perfectly fits my concept of the Summer Maiden — and that's Slate. And, yes, I do speculate that Slate is the Summer Maiden.
Yeah, I mentioned that I'm expecting Ozpin to pull Oscar into his 'locked room' that he spent V6 and V7 in and for it to look like Beacon's office, so we'll see them interact 'face-to-face' in the Beacon headmaster's office. Like Ozpin was prone to doing in V1-V3 (just like the Old Wizard in the fairy tale), he'll have been sitting in his 'office' watching the world through his window. Ozma consistently seems to deal with trauma this way, from the Old Wizard in the fairy tale to Ozpin in V6/7.
Salem seems to have done a similar thing: she was the one living in the cottage when Ozma first reincarnated (I think it was the same cottage). And Salem's conference room in her Domain of Darkness fortress is identical in shape to the room in which she and Ozma fought to the death and their children died. I've made that observation before — that Salem constantly plans the downfall of Ozma in a room that surrounds her with the memory of where she lost everything and came to hate him, as if to remind herself why she hates him. I made the same comment about the shadow girls in this episode.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 4th 2020 at 3:23:31 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.Welp
They are screwed
Bow to the PrototypeWhelp turned out the Amity plan mostly worked after all, even with Penny getting hacked. I still think Penny getting hacked is dumb.
Ruby's peach was pretty good in my opinion, especially her pointing out the logical reason why Salem likely isn't so invincible after all. The only iffy part is her highlighting that Ironwood can no longer trusted. She's not wrong, but that one nugget arguably makes that Atlas situation worse especially since it could isolate whats left of Atlas even further. All the cameos during the speech were pretty good to.
Ironwood actualy does the pragmatic thing for once, since he didn't seem to be in much of a hurry to stop the speech.
Prediction Ruby ends up becoming a figurehead for the rest of the world to rally behind, as a result of her speech and her character arc going foreword will be her dealing with the pressure of that and having to learn to step up and be a leader on a larger scale.
Edited by Gaogaigar54 on Dec 5th 2020 at 9:44:05 AM
Not reading any posts till I make mine.
This post won't be like the usual ones where I go scene by scene, but I'm instead gonna be discussing this in the general sense because... this episode as a whole is just big.
- Let's start with the biggest topic, Penny. She was definitely the star of the show this episode, not only going Superman and holding Amity up, but even fighting off the attempt at being hacked. Considering though the hack attempt failed, hopefully this will put to bed any ideas Ironwood will take control over her, since as we all figured, Watts double crossed him, and even then Penny fought off his hacking. She'll likely have superficial damage due to atmospheric reentry, but right now the main thing is that someone needs to find her. And the one leading the hunt... is Winter, leading the Ace-Ops sans Harriet. Hopefully Ruby will take her team to go look too and this will let Weiss smack some sense into Winter, and the others take down the Ace-Ops one last time. Maybe then Marrow will join the good guys.
- Next, the message. Unexpectedly, rather than a live broadcast, it's prerecorded. And Ruby pretty much spells it out in full: Salem is the unkillable threat responsible for the Fall of Beacon and attack on Haven, is attacking Atlas right now, and that even if Atlas falls, they can still beat Salem if they work together. And unfortunately, Ironwood has turned his back on Remnant and is now another enemy. This is a dangerous message, both in that it may cause people to fall into despair, but that Salem doesn't seem to have an issue with her presence being known.
- Then of course is The Cameo all across Remnant. Some are simple, others are quite interesting.
- First of course we have Terra, Saphron, and Adrien. Saphron looks the most upset by this, probably out of worry for Jaune since he's in Atlas.
- Then we have Whitley, sitting in Jacques office depressed. The little look he gives is telling that he finally realizes just how bad things are.
- Then the crater near Mantle. We see Fiona's Uncle, some Faunus, even that Karen granny and her daughter and grandson. And yet, they're all together, watching. Seems they really were able to put aside their issues in the face of a huge threat.
- Then is the desert where we have Sun and Neptune. Just them. Yeah, considering no scene was mentioned like this in the books and that they can't seriously expect everyone to read the books, this seems to lend further credence to the idea the books will get Canon Discontinuity or Broad Strokes, otherwise you'd expect us to see Sage, Scarlet, and CFVY with them. Instead, it's only the two we see the most. And the others not having Maya models doesn't mean anything as we'll see in a sec.
- Then we have Ilia back on Menagerie, but as she's watching, she gets a call from Ghira. I think the new Faunus Rights Movement is gonna get ready to mobilize.
- Then we have Joanna watching on from Mantle alongside those two drunkards.
- Then, surprisingly enough, we see "From Dust Till Dawn", and in it, both the Shopkeep, and Glynda. Yep, they have Maya Models now, and both are in Vale still helping with cleanup.
- Then we have Tyrian and Salem. While Tyrian looks displeased, Salem actually gives an Affectionate Gesture to the Head, and looks pleased with what she sees.
- Lastly, we have the Xiao Long home, with Tai watching in the dark alongside Zwei... but of course, no sign of Raven. Looks like The Stinger from Volume 5 really did amount to nothing aside from showing where Raven went to. Poor Tai though, he finally sees Ruby after almost a year, and then the signal cuts off.
- Now, Ironwood... I'm ready to admit it now. He's crossed the Moral Event Horizon. Despite Ruby's message getting out, he goes through with Watts hacking Penny and disrupts the message, and knowing that he said "It's Time", he specifically waited for them to make the message just to do it. He is not only trying to strip Penny of her free will, but he is going out of his way to interfere in the heroes plans just because they defied him. That is beyond petty, especially when he shouldn't care what they do so long as they stay out of his way. And even when it's clear Penny isn't responding, he doesn't care, he just orders she be capture.
- Then we have Cinder. Once again she fails to take the powers of a Maiden. She truly is pathetic, since even with Emerald's Semblance being able to work on normal machinery like Maria's eyes, she still gets blasted to kingdom come thanks to Penny's Thermal Sensors. Emerald's devotion is admirable, but is seriously misplaced. Even when she admits she could never beat Penny, she still acts defiant. Though, the fact they're coming back empty handed is not gonna please Salem after ordering they not go.
- Then Maria. A little age and a lost Kama and eyes doesn't change the fact she is the Grimm Reaper, since she pretty much toys with Neo most of their fight. I figured that Kama of hers could still work, and she pretty much is Yoda in terms of fighting style. And the only reason Neo landed a hit on her was because of Penny crying out in pain. But damn is she badass. Plus, that mech of hers. Looks like it's similar in design to the Paladins, but even more old fashioned. Maybe a construction rig based off the Paladin design meant for aiding in upkeep of Amity Tower?
- Speaking of Neo, looks like she genuinely wants Ruby. So much for my hope she was just playing Cinder the whole time. Still hoping for Neo getting so fed up with Cinder anyway she goes for a Mistreatment-Induced Betrayal.
- Then, poor Pietro. Dude didn't ask for any of this, and he just wants to see Penny live her life. It's hard for a father to watch their daughter put their life on the line repeatedly after already dying. And then seeing everyone treat her like a tool and worried she's died again... man Pietro needs a hug.
- Lastly, Team YEL. Yang sure changed her tune quick once she saw Ruby's message actually go out. What happened to it being impossible Yang? Looks like Ruby's group has accomplished more than yours did. That's what you get for doubting Ruby and thinking shit's impossible just because you don't agree with it. But, they come across the cracks caused by the tremors... and it's not a pretty sight. The Pools of Destruction are underneath Solitas now. The Pools weren't drying up, Salem was draining them and moving them to underneath Solitas. And they're headed for Mantle now. This Is Gonna Suck.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 5th 2020 at 3:17:25 PM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Just because Yang didn’t think Ruby’s plan was the correct course of action doesn’t mean she can’t be excited to see it work. Since, you know, it working implies that her sister is okay and not imprisoned or worse. Yang’s group just discovered a river full of Grimm headed straight for the refugee camp, that they can now act upon to prevent a horrific slaughter. Looks like she’s accomplished more than Ruby did with her message that Salem has no issue with being spread.
Mayhaps we should be focusing on Jaune and Oscar’s point that both plans have merit if working together instead of against each other?
As for my response to the episode, honestly all I care to say is I was getting annoyed with Pietro. Like, I get not wanting your daughter to have to fight; but seriously dude, someone just melted a while all the way through the satellite your on, and Penny’s the only one who can do anything about that. Do you want her to just stay up there with you so you all get shanked in the back?
Edited by TheAirman on Dec 5th 2020 at 12:57:38 PM
PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/TheySo is there a reason why Ruby told the entire world about the Maidens and Relics? I don’t see how that is relevant. All that needed to be said was about Salem attacking. Now, even if they do survive, everyone is going to scramble to hunt them down.
Man, whoever the Summer Maiden is must be real upset with that. Probably Raven too.
I think the talk of the novels being retconned out is a giant reach. It’s more probable answer is that they decided it wasn’t worth creating 6 full models for what amounted to three seconds of screen time. As for Glynda and Shopkeep I’m going to on a limb and say we’re going back to Vale for volume 9, which was always planned from the start to be made alongside 8 and was also shortened as a trade off for being longer. Alternatively, it was just cheaper to only make two new models for a one off scene, and Sun and Neptune already have a long history of being just those two guys.
Also nice to hear Burnie Burns as Tai again. I remember someone predicting he’d be recast when Burnie left RT and the U.S, so glad to see that didn’t happen.
Telling the truth about them let’s everyone know what Salem is after, allowing the world to better defend them. Oz made the decision to keep it all secret and that has only served to Salem’s advantage and her entire game plan, so Ruby threw it out since it was no longer working.
Edited by Shaoken on Dec 6th 2020 at 6:39:29 AM
Did you forget that they were hunted down and that’s why they were made secret. By all means, tell about Salem, but there was no need for the rest.
Just because there are some that might help doesn’t mean that there are way more who will see the chance to grab power.
Edited by SilentLyfe on Dec 5th 2020 at 11:45:33 AM
And it wasn't just this scene that made me think they'd get Canon Discontinuity, it's the fact not everyone can be expected to read both books and a desire to avoid Continuity Lock-Out, hence either that or Broad Strokes. Especially when narratively, if following the book, it's weird for Sun and Neptune to be on their own when the book spent so much time establishing Sun needed to reconnect with his team, and ended on them, Velvet, and possibly Nolan taking up training under Sun's cousin Starr, implying they'd more likely be together again. Yet instead, these two are on their own, yet not a single sign the others are nearby. And if they did animate the Shopkeep and Glynda just for a single scene, then why not at least animate Velvet due to her popularity and relationship to Sun being built up in the books? Or Sage and Scarlet just to show the team together? Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
"Then is the desert where we have Sun and Neptune. Just them. Yeah, considering no scene was mentioned like this in the books and that they can't seriously expect everyone to read the books, this seems to lend further credence to the idea the books will get Canon Discontinuity or Broad Strokes, otherwise you'd expect us to see Sage, Scarlet, and CFVY with them. Instead, it's only the two we see the most. And the others not having Maya models doesn't mean anything as we'll see in a sec."
Word of God is that they are going to Try to find ways to referance the Novels without going into Continuity Lock-Out. And that they explicitly dislike when expanded universe stuff isnt mentioned in the Primary work
Anyway
Holy crap
That was an Ep.
I honestly am not sure Penny is going to be Hacked at this point
Im really thinking Arthur is just tricking James
Bow to the Prototype![]()
Because creating entire models costs money. Also note that Vale got a proper background made and renders while Sun and Neptune are in front of a painting.
As for why they didn’t animate even one more of the novel crew, again, money. Also as we won’t be seeing Vacuo until Volume 10 it makes sense not to design and create models to be used two years in advance and thus lock yourself into a design that might not work when it comes to pre-production. Whereas with shop keep and Glynda the fact that they got that much detail suggests they are going to show up in volume 9, which entered development alongside 8.
Seriously, out of all the cameos we saw that one was the cheapest one with a painted background and no animation using pre-existing models.
Edited by Shaoken on Dec 6th 2020 at 7:28:42 AM
Theory on why Salem was pleased with Amity being broadcast:
![]()
I'd argue Saphron, Terra, and Adrien's was the cheapest, since all three had models already, and the couch they were sitting on was rendered back during Volume 6 and seems to be the same angle as when Terra was asking Qrow what he taught. With Sun and Neptune's scene, they still had to either animate or draw the background for them to stand in, whereas with the Cotta-Arc's, they just purely reused assets. Same could be said for Tai and Zwei or Ilia on Menagerie.
Edited by RebelFalcon on Dec 5th 2020 at 4:03:06 AM
Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.

Something I hope that happens is Oscar going into his mindscape to escape the torture and seeing Ozpin and the previous incarnations to talk things out.