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Vergil doesn't really atone for anything, though he does help solve the problem — after he and Dante get over their baggage after Nero knocked some sense into them.
At the very least, it seems like Vergil has finally let go of his obsession with power.
Edited by M84 on Jan 13th 2020 at 10:09:42 PM
I dont know, the south tribe part dosent feel different, except zuko is really pushing itself and is the moment they cant go back, if anything is a deal breaker moment for him.
Now zuko rejecting stuff and finally welcome back is probably the most ballsy moment in zuko redemption because it does feel like he did something bad.
I actually liked Zuko initially rejecting it in favor of joining Azula and getting back into his father's good graces. His whole thing for years was that he wanted his father to be proud of him again. There was no realistic way he was going to just give up an opportunity to do so.
Yeah, is probably one of the best moment because it dosent cop up the whole thing, and hell I feel many would do the same if given the changes.
He only changes for real after realizing "my father is a genocidal asshole" and "I've become too chickenshit to call him out on being a genocidal asshole".
It works because it feels like it was necessary for both the character and the story at large. What happens when Zuko finally "gains his father's approval", the one thing he's been wanting this whole time? It doesn't satisfy him. So what does he do then? That's what good storytelling is made of.
That and he learn the truth about is pass, is father being a asshole dosent matter because he will have is respect, but if after he learn what the fire nation did that he truly understand the scale of the situation.
Is drama because is one moment when the story take him being bad as somesthing serious, even if i said the narrative allow him to cross the line.
No, the tipping point was that war conference. The moment his father said "hey let's burn the entire fucking Earth Kingdom to the ground!" and Zuko failed to protest.
Yup, exactly that. Aided, but not superseded by his realisation how disappointed his uncle would be about that.
Now that I read somewhere, another "redemption" is nux from mad max, granted I will said he is not redeem rather than doing the same thing but for the good reason.
Mad Max is an interesting case of redemption because he's not that different from other bandits in The Road Warrior. Ironically, his attempt to gain redemption is Redemption Rejection because the Riggers don't trust him and leave him as a distraction.
Speaking of Avatar and redemption. I recently watched this series of videos criticizing the Legend of Korra's politics. Something it brought up, which in fairness I do think was rather new, is how the show glossed over Varrick's crimes while punishing Amon with death even though both are guilty of similar actions. It's not helped by Varrick being a rich guy while Amon has more humble beginnings.
Here's the video. Go to 6:01 for the critique.
Edited by windleopard on Jan 13th 2020 at 11:16:02 AM
That whole example of Zuko - as contrasted against Darth Vader - makes me wonder if there's a good example of a character who actually has done something truly heinous in the past being rehabilitated in some form or another - or, more likely, making an effort to rehabilitate themselves.
The example of 2019 Scrooge I brought up on the last page springs to mind again. Remember when I said that version of Scrooge was a bigger bastard than usual? Well, while he did have a Freudian Excuse, some of the things he did include blackmailing a heavily indebted businessman into agreeing to a hilariously lopsided deal to sell his textile workshop for several orders of magnitude less than it was worth, skimped on support struts for a coal mine that lead to several dozen miners dying in a cave-in (and then shamelessly tried to justify his actions after the fact), and withheld money that Mrs. Cratchitt needed for an operation for Tiny Tim unless she went to his house and... well, she assumed he was forcing her to have sex with him, and Scrooge waited until she'd already undressed before revealing that he wasn't interested in that and just wanted to see how far she'd go for that money, as some sort of twisted 'science experiment'.
One additional thing I found interesting about that ending, though, was that Scrooge's sudden change in personality is treated with caution and trepidation by the Cratchitts; even after he announces his plans to change his ways and help them, Mrs. Cratchitt is still at a loss for words and keeps telling him to get the hell out - and what with everything we already know about this Scrooge, could you really blame her? From her point of view, her husband's evil old boss just burst into her home uninvited - on Christmas morning, no less - and started rambling about things he couldn't possibly know while acting very out-of-character with a big grin on his face. If it weren't for the implication that she'd purposely summoned the ghosts earlier on (yeah, that kinda came out of nowhere), she'd probably think he was insane.
...Shit, kinda went off-topic for a bit there. But yeah, overall I got the impression that, even if the ghosts had decided Scrooge had redeemed himself, in the real world most folks wouldn't necessarily accept his 'redemption' even if it was genuine - he'd have to earn it through actual rehabilitation. Since the story obviously doesn't continue past that point, it's probably down to the viewer if he even can rehabilitate himself after all that stuff.
Redemption is defined as being saved from evil. It simply means that a person, whether through their own efforts or from the efforts of others, is no longer evil.
Whether they are forgiven for past evil...well, that's up to other people. Forgiveness is a gift that cannot be earned, after all. It can only be given.
So Scrooge was redeemed in the sense that he's not going to be an asshole anymore. As for forgiven...well, that's up to the Cratchitts and everyone else Scrooge has hurt.
Edited by M84 on Jan 14th 2020 at 6:24:05 PM
I think the two get confliated because otherwise, you spend time getting into the audience the chararer is good only to be rejected feel like a sort of jerk move, a sort of "you are no evil, but people hate you and they probably should".
In a way redemption is for the audience because in fiction they often the judge of redemption.
I think it's a good life lesson: even if you stop being an asshole and apologize for it sincerely, there will still be people who will not forgive you for it. And they wouldn't be wrong to do so either since nobody is obligated to forgive someone who hurt them even if they did sincerely change for the better.
Edited by M84 on Jan 14th 2020 at 6:33:02 PM
I think I was trying to make sense of the 'redemption vs. rehabilitation' thing that Tobias brought up. On looking at the Zuko Vs. Vader comparison again, I think I'm seeing the key difference between them - besides the fact that Zuko never knowingly did anything wrong - is that one of them lived to try and make up for their past actions, and the other one didn't. Therefore, a redemption that's only given in death can easily ring hollow because they don't get to actually do anything to mitigate their past actions. That's what I'm reading into it, at least. I'm probably wrong. :V
Edited by PresidentStalkeyes on Jan 14th 2020 at 10:35:38 AM
Anakin redeemed himself by turning away from the Dark Side and hurling Palpatine down that reactor shaft, a move that shorted out his life support. At that point, he was no longer the evil Darth Vader but just a sad old man who wanted to see his son's face with his own two eyes.
As for forgiveness? As far as we can tell, the only people who forgave Anakin were Luke, Yoda, and Obi-Wan.
But he could never make up for what he did even if he had survived. Nothing he can do could ever bring back the countless people he killed or undo the destruction he wrought.
That said, Vader's last act did mitigate some of the harm he caused. Remember that he played a key role in Palpatine's rise to power. His last act was to end Palpatine's reign.
Edited by M84 on Jan 14th 2020 at 6:48:21 PM
Granted, I will said a part of redemption is managing to fine a new life, a way to do better and being clean so to speak.
if anything that could be intersting: a good who try to redeem itself but....it never really try to apologies to people, just doing good deeds and be better.
I guess that for fiction that is cheating.
Vader did try to be better in his last few seconds of life, trying to show as much long overdue fatherly love as possible.
Also, I think that part of trying to be a better person includes making sincere apologies to people you hurt, unless you have good reason to think that apologizing would just be a burden on those people. You just need to keep in mind that apologizing is supposed to be for their benefit, not to assuage your own lingering guilt.
Edited by M84 on Jan 14th 2020 at 6:59:10 PM
So, I think we're all familiar with the idea that sometimes someone showing up to apologise for their own benefit to the people they wronged can be completely unwelcome to their victims, if not harmful. Would it make a character more relatable/appealing if they had a scene where they still made that apology and put those feelings out there, but made it to an empty space? This at least would reveal that the character is self-aware enough to realise the simple fact that their continued existence is actively detrimental to some people's current well-being, and that they shouldn't be in some places or talk to some people ever again as a result.
So. I've discovered there's a notorious Broken Base among Right Wingers regaring Jack Ryan and this is a outrage in which...I found myself sympathetic to because is something that legit merits annoyance.
The complain is basically that the Venezuela of the Second Season, despite all the rants of The super brave and heroic Anti-Imperialists, The fictional Venezuelan regime is a Right Wing dictatorship where high rank politicians openly complain about Leftists. As a Venezuelan Youtuber said, he can get behind that the heroic politician is a Center-Left woman because there's people on the Opossition like her (though he made jokes about how they're not as clean as in the series).
Others are more critical about that and say that they committed the hilarious fact that the Big Good ends.up sounding like Early 2000s Hugo Chávez due to making her a dedicated Social Democratic that quotes Bolivar and gives.long talks about how she grew up on poverty, which is notorious because a common.idea that gets mocked.a lot in the continent is "This wouldn't happen if Chavez was alive", a common phrase from Chavistas who don't want to admit they allowed the mess to happen.
Also. Personal.criticism, Not!Nicolas Maduro is a white blonde man. I can't but laught at how he's basically the "Nick Hard" Memetic Mutation (there was a viral.image of fake Venezuelan electoral ballots where all the candidates were Maduro and Maduro dressed with different clothes)
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 14th 2020 at 7:20:22 AM
And to think, this is a series trying to criticize Maduro.
I think it’s because, this being an Usonian production, they don’t want to end in a meta-case of Jerkass Has a Point / Villain Has a Point by portraying the truth about Venezuela (leftist dictatorship with a strong bend of nativism nationalism) and giving their right wing a small point. No sir, they can’t have that.
It being a US production may not necessarily be the reason, shows in the US have right wing politics all the time, it just depends on the individual politics of the writers.
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