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Protagonist506 from 'MURICA Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Aug 12th 2019 at 9:26:07 AM

@Ultimatum: Disturbingly, a lot of them seem to be of the opinion that Ayn Rand was too moderate.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
KazuyaProta Porky from A Industrial Farm Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Porky
Aug 12th 2019 at 9:28:35 AM

Randian extremism Is So Last Season, it's time to go even further, Beyond the Impossible /s

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 12th 2019 at 11:28:43 AM

Watch me destroying my country
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Aug 12th 2019 at 12:11:47 PM

The United States hates lawyers because the English did.

I remind people that one of Shakespeare's more famous quotes is, "The first thing we'll do is kill all the lawyers."

Which always got a big laugh from the audience.

Part of this being that lawyers are the grease that allows any legal system to function and even as back as Shakespeare's time, they're expensive as hell and incomprehensible (why they exist is the law is not simple enough to defend them) with an ultimate service to the state's rules.

If a society is unjust, then they are going to be leaning toward the injust. It's why Atticus Finch was so beloved in legal communities because he was a rare positive depiction of the profession. The lawyer show has helped soften the blow but, ironically, now leans mostly conservative and reactionary.

There's also the stereotypes of ambulance chasers and the idea of people like Saul Goodman.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 12th 2019 at 12:13:03 PM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Protagonist506 from 'MURICA Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Aug 12th 2019 at 12:47:46 PM

With Lawyer jokes, as well as jokes about Politicians or Political Parties, the trick I'd argue is you need to specific about their evil. Just having "Lawyers are evil" usually isn't a good punchline.

Here's an example of a good (in my opinion) Lawyer Joke: A rich man wants to be buried with some of his money for some reason. He splits his money up between his butler, maid, and lawyer-giving each a million dollars. He dies, then they put the money in his coffin and bury him. Later on, the Butler admits "I stole some of the money for myself". The maid admits she also took a little bit of money as well. The lawyer sighs and says "You guys are so unethical. I left him a check for the whole amount". It's funny, because it reflects a bit of truth into how lawyers think.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Aug 12th 2019 at 1:38:36 PM

Interesting (?) I've come across that joke as a "Jewish joke" told by Jews, with the Jewish character (typically a Rabbi) in the place of the lawyer and Christian clergy in the place of the employees. Which is kind of interesting because that does play off of the Greedy Jew stereotype in the same way that with lawyers, the joke is an Evil Lawyer Joke.

I think one reason why it's popular with lawyers, Jews, and presumably Jewish lawyers is because the clever Rules Lawyer enacting of the request is something one would take pride in.

For what it's worth though, the Jewish joke version generally has details indicating that the money is being used for charitable purposes.

RE Shakespeare's quote, as lawyers often point out, the character saying the line, Dick "The Butcher" is a pretty bad guy (basically the Medieval version of Bomb-Throwing Anarchists). And although less often mentioned, it is worth noting that Dick and his cronies do actually kill a lawyer immediately afterward - lawyer being defined here as an unfortunate clerk who is able to write his own name.

Like the similar "Cinna the Poet" scene in Julius Caesar, it's played for Black Comedy, but in both cases, the point of the scene seems to be all about how the masses are stupid and dangerous when there isn't a government in place imposing order (or more charitably, setting a good example).

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 12th 2019 at 3:46:58 AM

Supporting the right to arm bears
Aug 13th 2019 at 4:31:24 AM

So let's talk DC and race. Last month, I learned how Raven of Teen Titans fame was originally going to be black.

Well, recently I learned that another DC character with shadowy abilities who was supposed to be black: Shadow Lass of the Legion of Superheroes.

What happened was that Legion fans and would-be comic book writers George Vincent and Mike Rickford came up with two characters that they thought would be good Legionnaires, Chemical King and Shadow Lass.....

However, Vincent and Rickford had a much different origin in mind for Shadow Lass. She was intended to be black, from an all-black planet colonized from black people from Earth who left Earth due to racial strife.

Weisinger thought that the idea was way too controversial, but he said he liked the character and would try to work her in in a different fashion.

http://malpertuis.soup.io/post/74715334/COMIC-LEGEND-Shadow-Lass-was-created-by

What I find especially interesting is that this is very similar to the origin of another Legion member named Tyroc who debuted in the following decade after Shadow Lass first appeared.

In fact for a time, Tyroc was considered to be an Ethnic Scrappy and source of Unfortunate Implications:

Jim Shooter, who had been prevented from introducing black characters into the Legion in the 1960s,[2] objected to the characterization of Tyroc: "...I always wanted to have a character who was African-American, and years later, when they did that, they did it in the worst way possible....instead of just incidentally having a character who happens to be black...they made a big fuss about it. He's a racial separatist....I just found it pathetic and appalling."[3]

According to Mike Grell, who co-created Tyroc with Cary Bates, the character of Tyroc was "sort of a sore spot with me."[4] He had previously tried to introduce black characters into the series, but had been prevented by then-editor Murray Boltinoff.[5] "I kept getting stalled off...and finally comes Tyroc. They might as well have named him Tyrone. Their explanation for why there were no black people [in the Legion] was that all the black people had gone to live on an island. It's possibly the most racist concept I've ever heard in my life...I mean, it's a segregationist's dream, right? So they named him Tyroc, and gave him the world's stupidest super-power."[6]

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Aug 13th 2019 at 4:34:09 AM

There's also the fact that apparently all black Kryptonians lived on an island to explain why we never saw them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vathlo_Island

But don't worry, the text assures us, "They were very advanced."

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Aug 13th 2019 at 4:42:23 AM

Now I thought to myself, "why does Tyroc's backstory bother me as a black guy? Isn't this kind of like Black Panther?" Then I realized, not really. See, Black Panther's premise is "what if there was a country in Africa that wasn't subject to colonialism". Black Panther was not saying that the entirety of the world's black population was on Wakanda. And while I'm the last person to complain about superhero comics addressing race, there is something far too depressing about the idea that things got so bad for black people that all of them left the planet for another one.

As for Shadow Lass, it is disappointing to learn of yet another Legion character that was supposed to be black but ended up not beingnote . Then again, maybe having the one Legion member who is black be a scantily clad black woman with one of the few powers of a mystical source in the Legion may not gave gone over so well either.

[up][up]Let me guess, their "advancements" were an Informed Attribute.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 13th 2019 at 4:43:31 AM

CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Aug 13th 2019 at 5:27:07 AM

It was more DC comics was having its own realization that, in the 1970s, it was possible to have black characters. Being a bunch of WW 2 era white guys, their attempts to retcon why they hadn't been seen before and include them were weird and unnecessary.

You know, not just having black Kryptonians show up. There had to be a REASON we hadn't seen them before.

It wasn't as bad as Tyroc but they were still not part of the Kryptonian Science Council because, I dunno, then there'd have been a black guy on the council. They were at least still an island of super-science aliens like the rest of Krypton.

But yes, all these things kind of indicate that integration just flat out seemed WEIRD as a concept to the writers as if they couldn't just imagine... "Shadow Lass is a black woman from Mars."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 13th 2019 at 5:29:08 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Aug 13th 2019 at 6:49:09 AM

Yeah, I can definitely see the good intentions behind that. Probably would be better though to just silently retcon it. So like whenever Kryptonians were depicted in flashbacks and/or when present day Kryptonians appeared (it's more likely than you'd think), have some of them be black or any other racial group/appearance.

Reminds me of the Kree (probably not coincidentally) who in the comics were either Blue or Pink (i.e. like like Caucassians) and IIRC the latter were a persecuted minority (sigh).

I think it's good on the MCU to have some non-white actors play Kree, although I think it would be nice to race-lift some of the heroic Kree (I mean Korath has an air of nobility and At-Lass seemed like a nice guy, but they were still Space Nazis).

Edited by Hodor2 on Aug 13th 2019 at 8:51:03 AM

Supporting the right to arm bears
M84 Such heroic nonsense from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Such heroic nonsense
Aug 13th 2019 at 6:50:58 AM

NVM, I see it was fixed.

Edited by M84 on Aug 13th 2019 at 9:51:10 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Aug 13th 2019 at 6:55:47 AM

Yeah. Not sure how I got the names confused.

Supporting the right to arm bears
Aug 13th 2019 at 7:12:57 AM

The Kree have some unfortunate implications when you consider that they're a race of Space Nazis named after an American Indigenous tribe.

Aug 13th 2019 at 7:25:45 AM

... Huh. I never considered that. Is that deliberate. I think the tribe is spelled in English as Cree, right?

Supporting the right to arm bears
M84 Such heroic nonsense from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Such heroic nonsense
Aug 13th 2019 at 7:27:24 AM

Yes, it starts with a "C", not a "K".

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Aug 13th 2019 at 7:46:18 AM

Not quite Space Nazis but Space Romans.

The Kree have been evil, EVIL, and neutral.

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
Aug 13th 2019 at 6:43:17 PM

~Reflextion, ~Steven, to continue your discussion from General US Politics - there is an NPC in the Slums of Eulmore who talks about a dream she had where Vauthry has "luxurious locks" and "everything was gilded", then dismisses it as clearly being a silly dream.

I would say there's more than enough material there to say that Vauthry is a Trump analogue. The shantytown; the (almost literal) bread and circus of who gets in and who doesn't, and only then as a second-class citizen, as long as you're useful to the overclass; throwing tantrums in public only to be applauded by his sycophants; the literal "eat the poor" of Eulmore; and, of course, acting like there's no possible way to save the world and actively targeting the people who are trying to.

He's a Trump analogue.

Steven The Nu Mou Enthusiast from The Room Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
The Nu Mou Enthusiast
Aug 13th 2019 at 6:52:38 PM

Oh no doubt. And people already memed it by photoshopping Trump's face over Vauthry's. Don't forget that he also brainwashes people into attacking you, which is almost damn similar to how diehard Trump fans act.

Edited by Steven on Aug 13th 2019 at 10:08:13 AM

Something something thoughts and prayers
raziel365 Anka Aquila from Lima, Perú Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
Aug 13th 2019 at 7:38:08 PM

So...have we ever discussed the pros and cons of obligatory military service? Or is it one of those taboo themes we don't mention lest we start a Flame War?

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, maybe we should try to find the absolutes that tie us.
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Aug 13th 2019 at 7:45:04 PM

My view of it is that I don't even try to engage with it on a moral level. I engage with it, instead, on the fact a professionally trained volunteer army is generally more effective. Obligatory military service elsewhere should only be in the case of an emergency like, "Europe is invaded by Russia and somehow troops on the ground are needed instead of planes."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 13th 2019 at 7:48:32 AM

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
KazuyaProta Porky from A Industrial Farm Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Porky
Aug 13th 2019 at 7:46:33 PM

Yeah, Voluntary Armies tend to be more effective. The draft should be used only in cases of unavoidable and close warfare.

I understand why people think and thought it was a good idea tho.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 13th 2019 at 9:47:43 AM

Watch me destroying my country
MorningStar1337 Does this look like the face of Mercy? from 🤔
Does this look like the face of Mercy?
Aug 13th 2019 at 7:47:47 PM

From what I know about Valthry and Shadowbringers in general, it also seems like Valthrey-as-trump-analouge is also a commentary on the religious right, what with Shadowbringers being all about Light Is Not Good, and the religious trappings surrounding his domain as well as the Sin Eaters and Lightwardens. AFAIK Valthrey himself even transforms into a Lightwarden under the moniker of "Innocence".

though it does have me wondering if that means Emet-Selch is the closest thing to Putin in XIV?

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Aug 13th 2019 at 7:47:54 AM

"We're TV Tropes. We don't need bots to ruin people's lives.". -nightwyrm_zero
raziel365 Anka Aquila from Lima, Perú Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
Aug 13th 2019 at 8:01:47 PM

[up][up] & [up][up][up]

Some of the arguments on pro of it that I have heard come mostly from the experience of being at a base level where no one has any privilege, regardless of social status, and from which you make your standing through training. Mind you, I come from a family that has been linked to the military so I also understand a bit the civilian reticence to the obligatory service.

Also, it is from a certain point of view a logical requirement of the social contract as a citizen has a number of duties that are linked to his or her rights within a state.

Edited by raziel365 on Aug 13th 2019 at 8:14:39 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, maybe we should try to find the absolutes that tie us.
CharlesPhipps Author from Ashland, Ky Relationship Status: Lovey-Dovey
Author
Aug 13th 2019 at 8:04:35 PM

It's more the issue of what benefit the society gets from obligatory service to the state versus military versus a strong civilian economy. After all, the nature of taxes by themselves are an obligatory contribution to the state as well as caring for fellow citizens if you're a family member.

Author of The Supervillainy Saga, Cthulhu Armageddon, The United States of Monsters, and Lucifer's Star.
KazuyaProta Porky from A Industrial Farm Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Porky
Aug 13th 2019 at 8:05:20 PM

[up][up] I think that in a modern context, the best social duty is to have a work so the economy will benefit.

Some of the arguments on pro of it that I have heard come mostly from the experience of being at a base level where no one has any privilege, regardless of social status, and from which you make your standing through training.

I don't think that the millitary is a place where there no privilege, thought I agree that it can serve as a good social climb, that is also why it should be willing, it's your choice to climb after all.

[up] Yeah, Taxes are a basic social duty by themselves. They're not a annoyance, they're a duty.

Also, I realize that my feelings regarding taxes sound exactly like a American Right Wing Bootstrap rant. Emphasis on sound because I mean tone.

(Read on a angry, judgemental voice): You pay taxes because that's a proof that your pitiful existence has value to our State.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 13th 2019 at 10:07:43 AM

Watch me destroying my country

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