TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

Go To

This thread's purpose is to discuss politics in works of fiction/media. Please do not use this thread to talk about politics or media in isolation from each other.

REMINDER: US politics is a banned topic. Mentioning or alluding to it will get you thumped or suspended

     Original OP 
I felt we needed a place to discuss this because a lot of us love discussing the politics behind stories both intended or unintended. We all love discussing it and its nice to have a place to discuss it in these charged times.

I was thinking of asking what people thought were the most interesting post-election Trump related media.

The Good Fight on CBS Access devoted their entire second season to dealing with the subject.

Edited by kory on Feb 26th 2025 at 5:46:51 AM

OrangeBun Formerly Hail Muffins (He/Him) from The only sane region left in Brazil (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: I'm her lunatic and she's my sociopath
Formerly Hail Muffins (He/Him)
#36976: Dec 12th 2022 at 7:53:51 AM

It's possible that audiences have come to associate the willingness to commit violence as a character being assertive, and therefore fiction often mistakes pacifism with being passive.

El sexo es temporal. LA PENITENCIA ES ETERNA!
devak They call me.... Prophet Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
They call me.... Prophet
#36977: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:10:36 AM

>In fact, in his mindset, Naruto comes across as oddly "American" in a lot of ways. Though this is probably just similarities between The Japanese Spirit and American Can-Do Attitude.

This may not be accidental. The author made Naruto deliberately more non-japanese (e.g. blonde hair) to be more of an outsider.

>Most pacifism isn't just sitting there and going "well, I don't approve of violence" while seeing someone else getting beat up ten feet away and doing nothing about it. It's also not "I'll beat the shit out of someone but not kill them."

I think it's just a case that most people will have learned about pacifism from TV or movies, where it's usually portrayed as a sort of Straw Pacifist. Usually of the "too dumb to live" kind. Although Batman Pacifism (i will beat you to within an inch of your life but not actually kill you) is also common.

TV tends to be bad about explaining various ideologies that aren't already mainstream, and it's also not good at those.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36978: Dec 12th 2022 at 8:53:41 AM

It's possible that audiences have come to associate the willingness to commit violence as a character being assertive, and therefore fiction often mistakes pacifism with being passive.

Which is wrong. Pacifism can be it’s own brand of courage. It takes guts to stand by a conviction like that when literally everyone is giving you shit over it, or the entire world is contriving situations to force you to break it.

One way to define courage is ‘’doing something even if it’s difficult’’. Choosing not to fight can be very difficult.

People sometimes forget that.

One Strip! One Strip!
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#36979: Dec 12th 2022 at 10:33:53 PM

I think Talk no Jutsu go so much flack mostly because it was used for villains who had gone so far past the threshold that it became impossible to believe a few speeches could make them see the proverbial light. It was one thing when it was done with Gaara who was a kid, but for many it started to get absurd when it was used on adults who should have known better.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#36980: Dec 12th 2022 at 10:36:58 PM

Though it's only really used by Naruto on two adults in non-filler content — Nagato and Obito.

And in those particular cases, it works in part because Naruto has just enough in common with the more idealistic youths they once were that they felt a bit of kinship towards him.

And "Talk no Jutsu" is at least accompanied by regular fighting since the antagonists have to be subdued physically so they stop being an immediate threat long enough to get them to listen.

And IMHO, Nagato and Obito may have been adults physically and chronologically, but they stopped maturing due to the trauma in their past that made them into villains. Obito in particular — his whole plan was to literally relive his childhood.

Edited by M84 on Dec 13th 2022 at 2:47:23 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
xyzt Since: Apr, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#36981: Dec 12th 2022 at 10:42:32 PM

I think it got especially ridiculous when it was done with Nagato/ Pain. He was way too far gone imo with all that he went through. When even his teacher couldn't make him change his views (and was killed by him), it is a little too hard to believe Naruto could, even taking similarities and all into account

Edited by xyzt on Dec 13th 2022 at 12:14:06 AM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#36982: Dec 12th 2022 at 10:44:59 PM

I genuinely don't see how it's any different from, say, what regularly happens in stuff like Sailor Moon.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#36983: Dec 12th 2022 at 10:47:31 PM

The two Sound Village adult villains notably never do a Heel–Face Turn due to "Talk no Jutsu". Kabuto's Heel–Face Turn was the result of being trapped in the Izanami loop until he engaged in some serious self-reflection. And Orochimaru didn't really have a Heel–Face Turn so much as he did some self-reflection of his own concerning his in-universe Motive Decay.

Disgusted, but not surprised
xyzt Since: Apr, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#36984: Dec 12th 2022 at 11:01:36 PM

The sound village characters from the chunin exams didnt have much characterization or sympathetic backstory attached to them either if i recall. The four henchmen charged with bringing Sasuke are the same that in that they never change their ways.

And Kimimaro is another character who had parallels drawn with Naruto, Gaara and Sasuke who stays loyal to Orochimaru till his dying breath. Also Naruto is not able to "talk no jutsu" Sasuke to change his direction for a long time either.

It is really Nagato's case that started breaking the suspension of disbelief from what i recall.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#36985: Dec 12th 2022 at 11:01:51 PM

With Orichimaru, I'd say it's indeed less that he turned good per se and more that he realized that being evil simply wasn't working out for him. So, he retired when an opportunity presented itself.

Leviticus 19:34
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#36987: Dec 12th 2022 at 11:26:13 PM

Isn't Sailor Moon also mocked?

It's mocked for a lot of stupid, misogynist reasons, but I've yet to see it mocked for the way it handles its villains.

Though to be fair, the manga was a lot more kill-happy about the villains than the anime was.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#36988: Dec 12th 2022 at 11:27:45 PM

Though even in the anime, every Big Bad got blasted into oblivion. As did every Monster of the Week that wasn't just a corrupted human.

Edited by M84 on Dec 13th 2022 at 3:28:20 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#36989: Dec 12th 2022 at 11:32:04 PM

Though even in the anime, every Big Bad got blasted into oblivion.

Not entirely true. That only applies to Beryl, Wiseman, and Pharaoh 90.

Nehelenia just locked herself back up in her mirror at the end of Super S and when she briefly returned in Stars, she was given some renewal of her life which...I don't remember it well enough but it was kind of weird.

Galaxia was given the full redemption treatment, but it's established that she was possessed by Chaos and it's debatable how many of her actions were of her own free will. Mind, in the manga, Galaxia is absolutely acting of her own free will and she *still* gets a bit of personal redemption (while dying in the process).

And the anime-exclusive villains Ail and An certainly weren't blasted into oblivion, they were just desperate aliens struggling to sustain themselves.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#36990: Dec 12th 2022 at 11:33:42 PM

Ail and An weren't the actual Big Bad of the arc (or at least they weren't its actual Boss fight). The rampaging Doom Tree was. And it was destroyed by Sailor Moon. It is ambiguous whether the new sapling is the original Tree reborn or just its child though.

Disgusted, but not surprised
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#36991: Dec 13th 2022 at 1:48:39 AM

“I genuinely don't see how it's any different from, say, what regularly happens in stuff like Sailor Moon.”

Or “The Kindaichi Case Files”. Or “Detective Conan”. Or “Yu-Gi-Oh!”. Or “Kingdom Hearts”. Or large parts of American comics.

This sort of strong, dramatic idealism might as well be part and parcel of Shonen media (and fiction, really, at least the DRAMATIC part). And I really can’t get behind complaining about trying to help or be merciful, even to enemies or even trying to understand where they’re coming from and acknowledging when they have a point. It’s not like we’re suffering from a bereft of stories where the bad guy gets beaten and that’s a wrap.

Seriously, I remember a little while ago this year in the MHA forums where people were knee-jerkingly doomsaying about how the manga’s going to end horribly like “Naruto” because Deku expressed a desire with Ochaka to help Shirigaki from being AOL’s meat puppet or something of the sort.

Stories where evil is just beaten, the dragon is slain, and that’s it? Dime a dozen. Stories that try to portray more complex situations and characters, that try to aim for endings that look past just the spark that was the villain and try to prevent more like them from arising, looking at the larger conditions that helped spawn them, that doesn’t dismiss villains and antagonists as being evil because they’re evil and look more deeply at their psychology and motivations, asking how and why they turned out this way, seeing them as a person (a horrible person, sure, but somebody that could be understood), that even makes a theme out of the idea that change is possible in everybody, that nobody is beyond help?

For “Naruto”, that’s when it started to form it’s thematic core, actually have…not a plot, that’s the wrong word, so much as a point, a narrative that isn’t thinking day-by-day and tries to say something to say below the ninja adventures. Honestly, most stories have themes like this, a sort of skeleton that helps guide the narrative, another tool in a writer’s toolbox to make a story more then just a series of plot points and moments.

…I think, and this isn’t a shield against criticism or how those ideas are done, in the sort of medium that is essentially meant to be read and absorbed by kids, those type of messages have their value. I might even say they’re more valuable, if only because I see more evidence that the world, in a general sense, cleaves more firmly to a strictly retributive system of justice and neglects the process of rehabilitative justice, focusing more on punishing criminals harshly and making their crimes a permanent badge of shame and an albatross around their neck rather then trying to reintegrate former prisoners into society.

Oh, and the whole complexity/verisimilitude thing doesn’t hurt character or writing appreciation, either. Mine, at the very least.

Edited by fredhot16 on Dec 13th 2022 at 2:38:45 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
xyzt Since: Apr, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#36992: Dec 13th 2022 at 2:21:32 AM

Seriously, I remember a little while ago this year in the MHA forums where people were knee-jerkingly doomsaying about how the manga’s going to end horribly like “Naruto” because Deku expressed a desire to save or help Shirigaki while he was AOL’s meat puppet or something of the sort.

Was that kneejerk reaction after Shigaraki willfully destroyed an entire city? I do recall Tomura's backstory and his abuse by his father was sympathised with. Feels like this is the Steven universe diamond redemption problem all over again. You have your villians cross such horrific lines that the idealistic "everyone can be saved" moral feels messed up to be applied to them. Bonus messed up if you also emphasize the finality, seriousness and misery of death in your series.

Edited by xyzt on Dec 13th 2022 at 5:28:44 PM

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#36993: Dec 13th 2022 at 2:27:15 AM

I faintly remember a thought balloon from Deku saying that while he knows that Shigaraki was a damn horrible person, being AOL’s living puppet, trapped in his own skin, was still a pretty horrific fate.

I also somewhat remember MHA making a big thing about how being a hero was more then just defeating the villain.

Edited by fredhot16 on Dec 13th 2022 at 2:35:26 AM

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#36994: Dec 13th 2022 at 5:54:26 AM

Though part of the miserable feelings might also be part of the fact that we're applying an adult lens as well as our own feelings of justice to idealistic children's media, where all these underlying implications are part and parcel with the genre or type of story that's being told, edges sanded down in order to not get too heavy.

Children's media, and certain media in general, do have these weasels about themselves that have to be allowed, to be accepted by the audience and it's sometimes weird how certain weasels are allowed, but others aren't. It's why super heroes are not allowed to enact systemic changes. It's why the genre of Kid Superheroes are allowed to exist at all, usually without the heavier themes that would realistically be associated with it like life-altering injuries and trauma. How all sports shows are focused on the underdog beginners winning, rather the well-equiped and hard working, superior trained veteran team, or how the focus is always on the victory and never the competition or the self-improvement. Or how stories of underdogs are able to win by one great man overpowering the odds, utterly dominating the Big Bad by their own power, rather than maybe eek out hard fought victories out of strongly built coalitions of force and only create local victories if they're really that overwhelmed to begin with, rather than be empire toppling.

Edited by HeyMikey on Dec 13th 2022 at 5:57:46 AM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#36995: Dec 13th 2022 at 6:41:05 AM

Feels like this is the Steven universe diamond redemption problem all over again. You have your villians cross such horrific lines that the idealistic "everyone can be saved" moral feels messed up to be applied to them.

Yeah no.

Steven doesn't even forgive the Diamonds. He doesn't even like them. He tried to KILL White at one point.

People who complain about the Diamonds miss the entire damn point.

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#36996: Dec 13th 2022 at 6:42:37 AM

He just accepts them if it means they'll change their ways from what I've seen.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#36997: Dec 13th 2022 at 6:50:58 AM

Future doesn't go into it so much, but it's pretty obvious that only one of the Diamonds really understands the redemption thing. Yellow is actively trying to undo the damage she caused, but Blue and White just like...do the opposite of what they did before and they don't really seem to understand the problem. It's telling that Steven thinks what Yellow's doing is good and is way less okay with White and Blue.

Like...Blue projected her emotions onto everyone else, but the only emotion she really felt was endless grief. In Future, she's still doing that, she's just projecting forced happiness and only doing it to people who consent isn't really that much of an improvement, because she's not bothering to really try and interact, she's just kind of going "and this is the emotion you're supposed to be feeling right now" like she did before. And Steven is obviously really uncomfortable with it.

White actively puppeteered Gems and overrode their free will and in Future, she's letting the Gems do the same thing to her. She's not actually atoning or fixing anything, she's just flipped from being abusively controlling to being a complete doormat.

This is a thing you get sometimes when you do manage to get through to an abuser. Yellow thought she was doing the right thing the whole time and was desperately trying to fill the demands White made of her, and once she was free of that, she could actually examine the situation and find a way to fix the problems. Blue goes from forcing people around her to be just as miserable as her to pushing an unnatural state of happiness (emotional vampires can seriously overcompensate when trying to do "better" and it's seriously alienating and unsettling) and White just lets herself be the target of what she did to others before, again, without really addressing the issues.

And none of them really seem to understand why they need to dismantle their empire.

It's a lot more complex than "hur hur, just forgive the abusers". There are legit criticisms to be made, the show being cut short made some stuff vibe kinda weird and Future didn't really spend enough time on it, but the nuance is there.

And of course, in the movie, Steven very obviously doesn't want to spend more time with any of them than he has to and they all seriously have issues with understanding that he's not Pink. The show doesn't gloss over that.

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 13th 2022 at 9:54:41 AM

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#36998: Dec 13th 2022 at 7:19:24 AM

It's this very obnoxious trend of online discourse with zero critical analysis where the very idea of redeeming a villain is considered horrible for whatever reason. Steven Universe has gotten the brunt of it, but both western animation and Japanese anime have received backlash as well...and it's completely missing the point.

It should be *GOOD* to show things being resolved in a peaceful, it should be good to show the protagonist winning through kindness and compassion. I can't pretend that Naruto is a series with the best writing in the world (I'm not even caught up to Obito taking over as antagonist yet) but even if the execution is horrible, the actual ideas and themes aren't. With the My Hero Academia example, the series still hasn't ended so we don't know where it's going yet, but the whole point of the series is similar to Naruto's: new generation has to surpass the old and keep the same mistakes from happening, etc.

This also ties into discourse I've seen about how media doesn't "have clear cut villains" anymore. I remembered this surfacing heavily with Encanto, with people complaining that they wanted a traditional Disney villain...ignoring that the film would be horrible with one because the central conflict is about an *idea*, it's about familial drama and generational trauma and so on. I see that demand for a "traditional" villain of the no-depth, strictly evil variety surface in discourse about Steven Universe and other shows, and...sure, those kind of villains are cool when done well, but some stories don't need that.

Some people just want violence and punishment instead of redemption.

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#36999: Dec 13th 2022 at 7:29:06 AM

One of the major points of rehabilitative justice is the stopping of harm, more than the punishment or even the payment of past grievances, at least from the perpetrator. Under the ideal, the perpetrator is punished long enough that they become productive and recidivism is unlikely and the victims are given the support needed to rebuild, not necessarily from the perpetrator. When you look at what happened after Steven Universe, the big goals that Steven was aiming for is that the Gem Empire be stopped and the Diamonds are no longer a threat. Those goals were accomplished when the Diamonds stepped down and voluntarily ceded power to both disarm and convert to a democratic republic with every past colony getting self-agency. That they aren't really good people after the fact is beside the point, they still stopped being harmful, even if they aren't being particularly helpful and Steven is still allowed to feel resentful afterwards, though he was willing to accept them for the sake of the new and improved status quo.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#37000: Dec 13th 2022 at 7:29:45 AM

Honestly, I feel like a lot of people online don't really get that starting from a moral framework where everyone has their own reasons to believe the things they do and act the ways they do, and where you're taught that the people who hurt you may not understand that they have, is a much more solid base to begin with. I'd much rather see children instilled with compassion and understanding, and then moving from that framework into more realistic discussions about prejudice, bigotry, and hate once they're old enough (note: obviously marginalized kids need to have this talk/this understanding sooner than non-marginalized kids, which is terrible and sad), than for kids to be taught that only mean and ugly people do bad things because they're evil.

Edit: [up] I've seen a number of posts on Tumblr emphasizing that this form of restitution/forgiveness is very culturally Jewish, though I don't know enough about the specifics to say whether that's accurate. Either way, I feel it's important to analyze how people in our very culturally Christian nation, with baked-in notions of penitence and suffering as redemption, seem to react negatively to a different faith's system of forgiveness.

Edited by RedSavant on Dec 13th 2022 at 7:32:44 AM

It's been fun.

Total posts: 61,702
Top