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I too have no clue why we're doing such a large amount of bureaucray over such a simple trope. This doesn't need full-scale cleanup like this at most fix any bad examples or zero context examples but don't randomly delete examples or cite odd criteria.
Alright. I shall stop the cleanup. But this will remain available for obviously false examples like Lotso, and ZCE which was my actual original purpose. And for more in depth writeups. To tell the truth, I wasn't intending for it to be a bureacratic system. I was mainly wanting to get rid of instances where literally any character can be a Woobie, even a Complete Monster. I understand the concerns and trust me, I actually wanted a basic cleanup that got rid of obvious non keepers and ZCE. I apologize for this getting out of hand. I'd be happy to take suggestions on the future of this. Should we just close this and re add everything that has a decent writeup already? Or should we keep it open for bad examples, ZCE, and constructing more succicent writeups?
Edited by Klavice on Sep 11th 2019 at 12:00:28 PM
I mean, I'd be fine keeping it up to vet things, rewrite, and look after bad examples, but this "This hasn't been approved by the cleanup thread and must go" should probably be curtailed IMO
That was the original intention of the thread so I'd be all for that. Thank you for your input, Lighty.
This seems resolved.
I will just say I agree with Lighty and be on my way.
Take care Woobiers.
I say keep. I like having dedicated threads to trope cleanup and asking "Is this an example?"
Yeah, my only objection was forcing EP's, waiting period, etc. before any Woobie entries can be added. If something shows up that's problematic, whirl it through
We don't need a bureaucratic process for this. That seems to have been forced onto a lot of cleanup threads under ambiguous justification, I've noticed (Hate Sink, The Woobie) and I think it's transparently just because people want a CM-style voting system, even if it doesn't require that.
Just treat this the same as any other cleanup forum. Sweep up bad examples. That's how the CM thread started and stricter rules and process only became necessary after misuse so bad it nearly killed the trope.
The only real issue we've had here was someone constantly adding Lotso back as a Jerkass Woobie despite the fact he is a Complete Monster.
But yeah, I'd be happy to keep it simple. Nightmare Fuel kinda works the same sorta way as a basic cleanup thread for the trope.
Dumb question but does "stopping the cleanup" mean anyone can just add woobies now?
Yes. No more waiting, no more rules, this is strictly a simple cleanup for bad examples and rewrites for ZCE or others if they don't explain what makes the character tragic.
Edited by Klavice on Sep 12th 2019 at 11:24:11 AM
It's like time to get ready for another batch to be put up tomorrow. If you have any last-minute changes or grammar corrections, please do so now.
Edited by IukaSylvie on Sep 15th 2019 at 3:57:21 AM
Edited by IukaSylvie on Sep 15th 2019 at 9:19:35 PM
Well my job just got easier. Guess no writeups for Heather and Claudia. Good thing, too, because I really don't have the time for them.
Edited by Stellarvore on Sep 15th 2019 at 8:37:14 AM
Has anyone considered potential flaws in the arguments in the past few pages?
Agreeing with Lighty and others here. I was never all that fond of this thread being way too strict for such a simple trope and deleting any valid entries just because they didn't get a CM-long type EP. This would go so much easier if we just dial the strictness to like 95%. This would also bring more attention and work for other threads, like the MB thread, which can have no attention for a whole day due to other threads such as this
Edited by G-Editor on Sep 15th 2019 at 11:09:31 PM
Joseph? Cease and desist means cease and desist. Don't bother trying to contest those arguments. I never intended this to be anything more than a simple cleanup thread.
If MasterJoseph had counterarguments in mind, I'm willing to hear them out.
Alright. Feel free to post a counterargument if you have one. I've... got nothing. Aside from the fact that this was abused to an extent, and we had obvious non counters like Lotso. It's nowhere near as abused as Complete Monster.
Sorry for the late reply but I'll be honest that I kind of agree with Lighty on this one actually. However, for myself? I think the problems lies on the fact that there is some subtropes that I feel rather useless like Stoic Woobie, Wheelchair Woobie or something like that.
Wheelchair Woobie could be better used as "character has a wheelchair so the audience feels bad for them" and renamed to divorce it from the Woobie series of Audience Reactions, leaving it as more of an Intended Audience Reaction. Otherwise, it's The Same, but More Specific.
Stoic Woobie I'll have to think about.
(hello, I made a Woobie post for Crystal Prism a while back; is it alright to make an official entry for it now or do I need to get more votes for it to be approved before I write it in?)
(also here's another Woobie proposal from me)
Codex Equus is an ongoing collaborative fanfiction project that takes place in the world of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, but with a World Building twist. It is authored by BrutalityInc of Equestria: Across the Multiverse fame and Kendell2 (known as Godzillawolf) of the Pony POV Series fame, as well as many other writers.
The purpose of Codex Equus is to expand on Friendship is Magic as well as the previous "generations" of My Little Pony but give them a dose of Reality Ensues. Thus, the project deconstructs, subverts, reconstructs, and plays with several tropes to make both the setting and certain things more believable. For example, there are more to Changelingkind in general than just Chrysalis and her hive, and the various threats that the Mane Six face are just a drop of water in the bucket compared to other things such as "Fallen" deities, Eldritch Abominations, and brutal and domineering Giants.
Who is s/he?
Golden Scepter (his profile here) is an Alicorn Emperor who is currently the ruler of the Terran Empire, and an antediluvian god who has lived on Equus even before Known History, making him unspeakably powerful and ancient. He is also the biological father of nineteen Alicorn demigod Princes, who all Ascended at one point in their lives. While he is a highly respected and beloved individual, his long life and reputation hides an incredibly rocky and traumatic past that he spent Ages breaking away from.
What is their predicament?
Golden Scepter was once one of many divine residents of the fabled Alicorn Civilization, a completely utopian society that was populated by the Alicorns and their mortal subjects. While his early life is very spotty, what is publicly known that he was essentially a prodigy by his people's standards, and was the supreme ruler and judge of one of the most advanced empires in the world.
However, because the Alicorn Civilization was so utopian, it gradually stagnated from the lack of proper motivation besides their own successes and achievements, with the Alicorns becoming increasingly corrupt and hedonistic. Despite his attempts to preserve his moral integrity and bring awareness to the situation, even Golden Scepter would falter; among many "dishonest" things that he would later regret, he would take in both mares and stallions as his lovers, though he did try to treat all of them well.
The Alicorns' increasing atrocities would cause the birth and rise of Morning Star, a Fallen Alicorn god who tried subjugating the world and the surrounding universe to his own twisted ideas of perfection, kickstarting a brutal civil war (known presently as the "Twilight of the Alicorns") that lasted for ten Ages. Golden Scepter would fight Morning Star's faction and hide away those who were caught in the crossfire and/or didn't want to fight, saving Alicornkind from complete extinction, but at the cost of losing so many of his own friends and loved ones to Morning Star. And when the war finally ended, he chose to remain in the outside world to help locate survivors and rebuild what was left, while the surviving Alicorns retreated and completely secluded themselves away to survive.
Through his many good deeds, Golden Scepter gained a following and founded the Imperium of Ponykind, a powerful empire that was just as advanced as his old one. Unfortunately, Golden Scepter's traumatic experiences from the "Twilight of the Alicorns" would catch up with him and bring out his worst flaws, deeply affecting his judgement to the point where he became little more than a divine tyrant, and left behind a long trail of mistakes that eventually motivated one of his closest subordinates, General Aurum Lupus, to betray him and lead a rebellion to depose him. Golden Scepter killed his traitorous General, but was horribly injured in turn, which necessitated him being put in magical stasis to preserve his life until better healing methods could be developed.
Golden Scepter was instead forgotten by his own people and in his absence, the Imperium of Ponykind became a Wretched Hive full of paranoia, xenophobia, cruelty, viciousness, and religious fanaticism until it was destroyed by more benevolent forces. After many years of sleep, he was unearthed, healed, and revived by two Alicorns, Luminiferous and Queen Dazzleglow, in the Second Age, and the shock of waking up in a completely different time understandably left Golden Scepter frightened, distrusting, and hostile towards everything and everyone, especially Luminiferous, who is an exact physical copy of the long-deceased Morning Star. However, the main turning point would be when Luminiferous showed Golden Scepter the long-abandoned ruins of his fallen Imperium, causing him to remember the events that led to his being sealing away. Golden Scepter realized that he had become no better than Morning Star or his people and fell into despair, but Luminiferous encouraged him to make amends with the past and redeem himself for his crimes and sins, so he could break himself free from the mistakes and flaws that plagued the Alicorns.
This led to Golden Scepter traveling all over Equus for three Ages, including helping sapientkind survive the "Void Aeon" event by hiding away whomever he could while many heroes fought a Mad God and his minions, and learning from the examples set by mortal and divine individuals. By the Fourth Age, he has become a truly benevolent ruler who founded the much smaller yet successful Terran Empire and had a family of his own, but even though he has finally found forgiveness and redemption, his struggles are not yet over.
His beloved wife, a mortal pegasus mare named Blessed Skies, would die of old age despite his attempts to extend her life, which no doubt had an effect on Golden Scepter and his nineteen demi-divine sons. Though Golden Scepter would later accept his wife's death and move on, numerous problems would continue to follow his nineteen demi-divine sons, either through personal flaws of their own and/or external circumstances - his eighth son, Prince Crimson Star, had been an Insufferable Genius until he was blinded in a carriage accident, and nearly committed suicide by proxy by letting a few brothers who hated him beat him up as "payback". He had to exile his second son, Prince Fanged Paw, after he took his hatred of Prince Crimson Star too far. And he accidentally discovered during a heated argument with his thirteenth son, Prince Written Word, that the latter had been encouraging religious worship of him behind his back for years in a well-meaning attempt to help his subjects, despite it being officially banned in the Terran Empire.
All of these factors have made Golden Scepter to wonder if his past actions have come to haunt him, and suspects that his sons might actually be reincarnations of his Generals from the Imperium era...
Can they defend themselves/Are they a Jerkass?
Being based on the Emperor of Mankind, Golden Scepter is an extremely powerful and long-lived Alicorn god who embodies Ponykind, Psionics, Leadership, and Judgement, so he's more than capable of defending himself. He is one of the most powerful psychics in the world, to the point where it was rumored in-universe that even the mightiest of Alicorns couldn't match his potent mind. He is also a skilled fire mage who wields holy fire, which has both purifying and healing properties. He can magically boost morale and inspire people to follow him and do the right thing with just a few words, and he serves as the final authority when administering justice, with his verdicts being treated as the "final word" unless he has given explicit permission to overturn them.
Adding to this is the fact that he is one of many prodigies among his race - he is a peerless genius and warrior who is well-versed in subjects such as science, technology, and magic, and has founded three empires in his long life. Because of his accomplishments, he is rightly regarded as a Living Legend and a war hero by the world, including the Alicorns themselves.
In terms of Jerkass standards, Golden Scepter is the living embodiment of mortal Ponykind's best and worst traits, and as a result, he constantly straddles the line between benevolence and malevolence, all while struggling to keep himself in check. The Imperium era shows that under certain circumstances, he is quite capable of becoming a Jerkass on par with the Emperor of Mankind - among many atrocities, he became a genocidal xenophobe towards non-Pony races, torched an entire city down to its foundations just to punish one of his followers for encouraging religious worship of him, and was not above psychically enforcing loyalty to him. In his mind, everything he had done was for the greater good and the well-being of mortal Ponykind, because only he knew best for them. But his horrible actions, combined with his hypocrisy, ruthlessness, and cruelty, all contributed to him nearly dying when his subjects and subordinates decided to rebel against him.
His entry, as well as a few drabbles and quotes in Codex Equus, all imply that while more benevolent before the Imperium of Ponykind, he wasn't much better, either. He initially acted stoic and emotionally distant in his first empire because that kind of behavior was the norm in Alicorn society - it was the norm for rulers in his time to try appear wise, benevolent, and perfect to their mortal subjects. So when Golden Scepter emerged in the Second Age, his stoicism made him look frightening and scared Ponies away even without meaning to, and Luminiferous has to spell out this flaw and its consequences for him when he insisted on acting this way.
In the present day, Golden Scepter has redeemed himself for his sins and was able to become a loving father and husband, though he still has his flaws. He partly contributed to one of his sons, Crimson Star, becoming an Insufferable Genius by praising his accomplishments and skills, even though he was genuinely proud of him. He embarrassed and even traumatized his sons when a question from another son, Prince Emerald Lion, led to him talking about the Alicorns' sexual freedom and his own sex life. And the fact that he had flaws at all caused his religiously devoted son, Written Word, to resent Golden Scepter for not "helping" his family or his subjects until he snapped, leading to their argument (though they were able to reconcile later after Written Word realized his mistake). And despite everything, his entry mentions that he still has moments of pride; when he visits the Summer Changeling Progenitor, Emperor Blackthorn, to retrieve an ancient artifact from him, Golden Scepter spends most of the visit constantly on edge, as Blackthorn represents all the flaws and mistakes that he hated about himself.
Golden Scepter is also capable of holding grudges for even a long time. Golden Scepter's animosity towards Morning Star is understandable given how the latter caused the irrevocable downfall of their people, but it also initially caused him to hate Luminiferous, who physically resembles his "father" but has none of his villainy. Golden Scepter is also biased against sapient robots (called "Synthetic Automatons" in Codex Equus) due to personally witnessing a particularly violent A.I. rebellion that destroyed a very prosperous civilization... though it blinds him to any potential good robots can do, and his eleventh son, Prince Steel Barricade, had to keep his developing "technological empathy" a secret from him, at least until an old enemy of Golden Scepter's tried destroying Equus out of extremely hateful spite.
While Golden Scepter certainly had his low points, he's a flawed individual whose various experiences and tragedies were very much caused by people and circumstances out of his control, even though he himself bore much responsibility for some of them. For one, he went through a brutal civil war that tore his people apart and killed those close to him because the person who started it - Morning Star - sought to satisfy his own ego. Afterwards, a horrifically tragic combination of ten Ages worth of war-related PTSD, being the only Alicorn in the outside world at the time while surrounded by beings who are as long-lived as ants, and his inability to seek proper help for his issues, instead going untreated for possibly millions of years, would bring out his worst flaws and deeply affect his judgement as he powered through the nightmares and hallucinations that came with his trauma. Even though he does eventually find positive influences in the form of Luminiferous and Queen Dazzleglow, Golden Scepter was still essentially a very broken stallion, struggling to make amends with the past until Mentálne, the young Deer goddess of Mental Healing, is born. When compared to others, Crystal Prism, a young Alicorn demigod, had similarly gone through great suffering, but his own experiences are just a drop of water in the bucket compared to the utter hell Golden Scepter had to go through. And on top of that, certain experiences with raising his nineteen sons have caused Golden Scepter to wonder if his sons are actually his former Generals reborn, to give them the happy life that they themselves were unable to have in the Imperium era.
Possibly an Iron Woobie, considering all the horrible things he had endured, or Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds due to being a Physical God.
Edited by Randomfan11 on Sep 24th 2019 at 4:57:17 AM
@Brainulator Oh! And I also remember on Polar's comment in CM cleanup regarding Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds. Honestly I can't blame him because well...WDOW can also overlaps with Jerkass Woobie
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