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This cleanup isn't necessary. Please stop commenting out "unapproved" examples. Complete Monsters are the only characters that cannot be listed as this trope. Everyone else is fair game.
No two week waiting period either. If someone wants to add an example from a recent game, novel, film or other work, they can go ahead and do so.
Edited by Klavice on Apr 17th 2020 at 6:40:19 AM
Starting things off, let's start with the Ace Attorney page.
Original Ace Attorney Series:
Move to Iron Woobie.
Keep as Gumshoe does generally let his troubles affect him.
Maya is very much an Iron Woobie.
Easy keeps for both. Although Celeste sounds like an Iron Woobie.
Move to Jerkass Woobie.
This I could see staying where it is as Will seems to be affected by his bad luck.
Mimi is very much a Jerkass Woobie.
Aside from Regina, these are all Iron Woobies. Max leans on Jerkass Woobie considering he wants to marry an underage (at the time) girl, and cleans the clock of one of his co-workers, Jerkass he may be. Would also move Acro to Jerkass Woobie.
Given most of her homicidal tendencies aren't her fault, I'd say keep.
Easy move to Jerkass Woobie, the entry even states that.
Maggey kinda falls under The Chew Toy, although a heroic example. I'd say move to Iron Woobie.
Lana is an Iron Woobie, and Ema is also an Iron Woobie though given she nearly gets convicted of murder, I'm inclined to lean towards main woobie.
First bit could do with a change, as it really only solidifies him as a Butt-Monkey.
Phoenix is an Iron Woobie extraordinaire at this point and has shown to be Made of Iron.
Ace Attorney Investigations Arc:
Keep. Although Fridge Horror should be removed.
Both are IW, hands down.
Looks like we might need a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds section. As this would be perfect.
Apollo Justice, Dual Destinies, and Spirit of Justice Arc:
Apollo is a Butt-Monkey, but he's easily an Iron Woobie given his tragic backstory.
This is one of those hard ones as it doesn't really state why she's a woobie. Though I would keep it.
Klavier is a Nice Guy, but he rarely lets his troubles out, so I'd say Iron Woobie.
Easy move to Iron Woobie part.
Both of these are Iron Woobies.
Move Damian to Iron, and keep Jinxie as regular woobie.
Keep. Though "could be seen" is Weasel Words. I'd say Robin goes to Iron Woobie since she never lets her struggles get to her.
Easy move to Jerkass Woobie.
Not sure on this one. Part of me wants to move it to Jerkass Woobie considering what she does to Juniper's reputation, but the other wants to cut it entirely as she is seen as The Chew Toy.
Clay is very much an Iron Woobie as he is a heroic character, and fought the phantom.
Iron Woobie for both of them, as while Marlon is an attempted murderer, he immediately feels guilt for it when he finds out the whale is innocent, and is easily the most sympathetic villain in the series. As for Sasha, she's a Genki Girl, but does have a dangerous heart condition so I'd say keep but move to Iron Woobie.
Move to Jerkass Woobie portion of the page. Otherwise, it's a pretty easy keep.
I'd move this to Iron Woobie as they do not show their vulnerable points until much later.
I'd say keep it the way it is.
This is a Jerkass Woobie as mentioned, this character has Dr. Jerk moments, and is a villain.
Any issue with me starting a discussion dates page?
Edited by MasterJoseph on Oct 13th 2018 at 10:00:54 AM
Hmmmm this is rather interesting. I do have some entries regarding Woobie but I'll think about them later. Can I join to participate?
Go on, but someone may need to consider working out an effort post template like CM and MB.
BTW, have you noticed my decision to volunteer for the creation of a discussion dates page?
Sure, go right ahead and make a discussion dates page. Since this is a full cleanup of The Woobie and its subtropes, we've gotta make sure Dr Wahwee from Mega Man 11 for example isn't listed under Jerkass Woobie if they are too vile or not enough people have played the game I'm thinking two weeks like CM and MB. Also I think I might do a template myself for this trope.
I'd also like to note that JW and IW will still be on the Woobie pages, just under their type of woobie. For example, Aqua would be moved to Iron Woobie section of the KH page, while someone like Terra might be more of a Jerkass Woobie.
Also, here's the Drafts Page.
Edited by MasterJoseph on Oct 15th 2018 at 3:23:31 AM
Found these following examples, guess I'll purge them 1 by 1:
Edited by MasterJoseph on Oct 15th 2018 at 7:52:02 AM
Alright, let me start with one on one. First from the show that I covered in CM cleanup, Tenrou Sirius the Jaeger:
This is one of the examples that I write back then and I'm going to give my thoughts on it:
So do you think these guys should stay or not? Personally I think they can stay.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Oct 15th 2018 at 9:50:37 PM
How'bout we wait for an EP template.
Mmmmm yeah...EP could make things a bit easier
Think you might take Woobie Species into account?
Here's the full list of Woobie subtropes that I could find:
I feel that differentiating the different sub-tropes should be the first thing to address.
On a related, I'm surprised Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds is not a YMMV trope even though every other Woobie trope is.
I'll see what I can do. I tend to be sporadic in my posts, but I do catch up on most of the clean-up threads.
Edited by chasemaddigan on Oct 15th 2018 at 1:34:01 PM
Think you might help out more in this thread?
Well...this is interesting. As for a template, something I was thinking about was actually something like this:
Who is she (or he)?
Which also explains the work they originated from, as well as a bit of their backstory.
What is their predicament?
Explaining how they got into the situation they are in.
Obviously, how much sympathy is intended for the character in question? Does the work paint them in a tragic light?
Can They Defend Themselves
This would take the Iron Woobie trope into account.
For instance, there is actually one show I had in mind concerning the trope. The series in question is called Dropkick on My Devil or Jashin-chan Dropkick. The series concerns a college student named Yurine Hanazono, a gothic girl who dabbles in the dark arts. One day, she accidentally summons a lamia from Hell named Jashin. Since she doesn't know the spell to send Jashin back, Jashin spends all of her time and energy into trying to kill Yurine only to be bludgeoned and tortured by Yurine.
For starters, Jashin herself would be a Jerkass Woobie. There are moments where her punishment would be undeserved, but the reason as to why Jashin wouldn't count is that besides trying to end Yurine, she bullies other characters, treats her best friend like dirt, is selfish, etc.
As for who I feel could meet the criteria going by the template would be Pekola and Medusa.
Who is she?
Pekola is an angel from Heaven on a mission to eradicate demons and witches. She was also the superior of another angel by the name of Poporon.
What is her predicament?
Well...that would've been the case had she not have lost her halo. Losing her halo automatically makes Pekola as powerless and weak as a human. Since then, Pekola had lived in a cardboard box.
Her life in the anime is pretty much not good. For one, she is always facing bad luck in nearly every episode. For instance, in a Christmas episode, Pekola scraps for some bread crusts and milk to eat for that night. As you would've guessed, Jashin arrives and immediately tries to take the crusts for herself. Despite the fact that she was happily eating a full plate of curry.
Or in another episode, Pekola struggles with one of her jobs, and just when she receives her payment for it, she finds her cardboard box home destroyed by an intoxicated Jashin.
In one of the more worst moments in her life, Pekola is reunited with her apprentice the aforementioned Poporon. Just when things were seemingly looking up for her, Poporon pulls out a rocket launcher and tries to kill her, revealing that she was wanting to ensure that she never returned to Heaven so that Poporon could assume her position. Even after she is stranded on Earth much like Pekola, Poporon blows Pekola's offer to work together to survive.
In the tenth episode of the anime, Pekola accidentally drops her earnings into a charity box. While she is initially comforted by the idea that the money would be going to help needy children, she discovers that the charity donations were a scam.
Pretty much, Pekola's life is the very definition of bad luck. In the anime, she is often given food by Yurine every now and then. Now, while Pekola often has the habit of denying the food that Yurine gave her, she isn't doing it because she was a Jerkass. Part of her initial refusal is because she was made to believe that demons and witches were nothing but evil, and thus was naturally distrustful of the devil girls and Yurine at first. By the end of the series, this issue is pretty much nonexistent, and you could even make the claim that Pekola eventually saw the girls as her friends.
Can she defend herself?
No. With her halo, she is unbelievably weak. While she would like to claim that she is still stronger than a human, she can hardly lift large objects, and she was especially vulnerable when Poporon arrived to finish her off.
As for Medusa....
Medusa is Jashin's closest friend. And her personal ATM (at the moment) because she would dote on Jashin by giving her money to spend for her luxuries.
Well, her life as a whole is one. As a gorgon, she has the ability to turn people into stone. However, rather than the stereotypical snake hair, Medusa can turn people into stone because when people look at her, they are transformed due to her cuteness. However, these instances are largely unintentional on Medusa's part. As such, she wears a bag over her head.
As for anything else, there is her "friend" Jashin. Medusa's Fatal Flaw is that despite of being a demon, she is a Nice Girl. Because of this, she is easily manipulated by Jashin. When she isn't buying Jashin objects that she intends to kill Yurine with, Jashin would try to shift the blame of her failed attempts onto Medusa. Jashin had done this for thousands of years. If she's bullying a lesser demon? She would shift the blame onto Medusa. Or when Jashin was trapped in a hole? Medusa saves her...only for Jashin to leave her in it.
Really, her relationship with Jashin in itself is tragic in some fashions. In one episode, when Yurine was suggesting that Medusa wane herself from spoiling Jashin, Jashin gets mad at her and yells at her causing Medusa to run a way crying. While things between the two are rekindled, there are a few more moments like this.
In another episode, Jashin becomes convinced that Medusa had some secret admirer and angrily confronts Medusa on it, calling her horrible names. But it is revealed that Jashin had actually asked Medusa for money, but to keep it a secret from Yurine. Like before, she runs off crying her eyes out. There's even an episode where Medusa is practically traumatized by seeing Jashin's lifeless corpse...only for the whole thing to be revealed as a cruel joke by Jashin (who merely molted).
She was born as a gorgon, meaning that regardless of whether she wants to admit it or not, she cannot go out, because that would put others at the risk of getting turned to stone. As a nice girl, she is a pushover who is easily exploitable. She has a friend that casually admits that she views her as her personal money machine. While Jashin does prove to actually love Medusa in her own way, these moments tend to be overshadowed by how she treats Medusa.
In a way, yes. Since she is a gorgon after all, she can defend herself. However, what keeps her from going towards being an iron woobie is that she is good-natured and would choose not to hurt anyone if she could help it.
Overall, I feel that both could pass as being Woobies. That is if everyone is fine with my idea of a template.
Edited by AustinDR on Oct 16th 2018 at 7:48:45 AM
Template looks great Austin... I think I will try to use it in the future.
Wow, you guys work fast.
I have reserved Fi M Season 9 for Woobies as well as the untitled AA game, and Warrior Cats since I'm the only one who read past book 6.
Also given that Complete Monsters cannot qualify for this trope I'm gonna axe Scourge from Jerkass Woobie as he is far too cruel to even count as a Jerkass Woobie. (That cat alone murders the series' Big Bad, the protagonist of the first series, and a huge amount of cats and dogs. The manga that explains his rise to power even states his actions are not mitigated by what happened in the book. Literally it's just that he was bullied so he decided to become a mafia-esque Serial Killer. Brokenstar should go too as he is similar to Scourge but gets kittens involved with his Spartan style Training from Hell (most of the time said kittens die due to being too "weak") if THAT wasn't enough especially for a book intended for younger readers like Harry Potter (though it does have plenty of adult themes in it that make it about as child friendly as Watership Down) he causes his own mother to be exiled from the Clan on account of murdering her mother's next litter of kittens causing them to attempt to kill her on command if they find her on their border). Damn. I do recommend this series despite the questionable quality after about Series 2 or 3 because the EU explains a lot that wasn't in the original books and it's a pretty fun read given how Anyone Can Die.
Let's take a crack at the Jerkass Woobie template I made through Austin's woobie template.
Who is he?
Warrior Cats is a What Do You Mean, It's for Kids? book series that features cats, death, sexual themes, and fantastic racism. With the rule of Anyone Can Die, this series attracts a lot of Woobie types. Some are helpless and cannot defend themselves but for the most part most are Iron Woobie or Jerkass Woobie like this candidate I am proposing namely Breezepelt of WindClan. He is a major antagonist and Rival Turned Evil of the third and fourth arcs called The Power of Three and Omen of the Stars. Breezepelt was born to Crowfeather, also a potential candidate for Jerkass Woobie dom and his reluctant mate Nightcloud. WindClan is possibly one of the biggest examples of a group of characters taking a level in Jerkass in novel history without crossing the MEH. Without giving too much away, Breezy tried to defect to the Big Bad Tigerstar's cats known as the Place of No Stars or Dark Forest, basically kitty hell. As Breezepelt trains with the Dark Forest cats he begins to plot his revenge against his half-siblings born out of a one-night stand (this happens a lot) one of which is The Medic and blind of ThunderClan and the other is his brother. The third sibling who revealed all of this was Put on a Bus by getting trapped in a endless labyrinth.
What is their predicament?
Breezepelt was born to a loveless marriage between Nightcloud and Crowfeather after Crowfeather had lost both his former mates and felt incredibly suicidal, he had a reluctant kitten with his new mate and they became Breezepelt. In the beginning Breezepelt when he was young was closer to an Iron Woobie given he was grumpy but had his reasons. For one his own father has Parental Neglect AND Parental Favoritism when it comes him vs his other kits (granted he didn't know they were his, but the fact Breezy was waiting for his father to praise him, and he didn't just adds more pity). So basically Breezepelt is only given love by his Clan Leader, eventual mate, and mother (all of whom are jerks to a point) along with his grandmother before she died offscreen. His Daddy Issues don't stop there. Oh no... When Hollyleaf (his half sister that disappeared) revealed that Jayfeather, Lionblaze, and herself were the children of Leafpool (ThunderClan's medicine cat and the mother of Breezepelt's half siblings) and Crowfeather, what little respect Breezepelt had went down the litterbox. Everyone started to hate him within his clan causing him to think Then Let Me Be Evil and joins the Big Bad army.
Sympathy standard for Jerks?
Most jerks are pitiable, but not misguided like Hawkfrost and Tigerstar (son and father). However, Breezepelt started off sympathetic as hell and ended up despite trying to cross the MEH, coming off as a misguided and tortured soul. Not only that but the poor guy was nearly driven away from his Clan for fighting on the Dark Forest side by his own jerkass of a dad. Compared to Crowfeather though, Breezepelt is written to be far more sympathetic. His parents hate each other and are abusive and he was cruelly mistreated way worse than normal bullying.
Are they too vile to qualify?
While Breezy attempted to cross the MEH by attempting to murder his blind half brother and a pregnant hostage, he still does have a legit Heel–Face Turn by the end and realizes the error of his ways. The fact that this one secret that was told about him being born to a loveless marriage far outweighs his crimes. He also pets the dog by mating the broken Heathertail who was rejected by his own half brother for trying to play in the tunnels as warrior apprentices. I would say a pass.
Edited by Klavice on Oct 16th 2018 at 1:05:49 AM
You might as well start a post for pending writeups, like ACW for CM and Mr. 4 for MB.
I'd advise using a URL shortener.
Master Joseph: Castlevania Netflix Trio, High School Dx D: Vali
Klavice: Hinoka (Fire Emblem Fates)
Edited by Klavice on Jan 30th 2019 at 1:43:21 AM
Here's one more on my end:
What is the work?
When the Wind Blows is a 1982 graphic novel by British author Raymond Briggs who had also made The Snowman. The graphic novel received an animated film adaptation that was released in 1986. When The Wind Blows is about an elderly couple named the Bloggs. When word gets out that international tensions could lead to full-break of war, the two — James and Hilda respectively — don't take much alarm having lived through two world wars, so they feel that this one would be a piece of cake. Sadly, they failed to realize the powers of nuclear war.
What are their predicament?
Upon learning that war could break out in three days, James takes the initiative to prepare for it. Having bought a Protect and Survive pamphlet, James makes a crude bomb shelter out of a fallen door, and places it beside the wall. Obviously, there are many flaws with the pamphlet such as saying that they should paint the windows white (to apparently block the radiation), to having to get into bags before the missile drops. Hilda herself isn't as concerned, going about her daily routine. Soon, the missile drops, and it demolishes the town of Sussex, killing everything within reach. Miraculously, James and Hilda make it out alive, but shaken a bit from the bomb. But as the film progresses, their problems are far from over.
As they were trying to rebuild their home and go about their daily lives, the two start developing symptoms pertaining to radiation sickness. Hilda's jaws start to bleed, she has sick spells of vomiting, she starts to develop spots on her legs. James tries to stay strong for the two of them, seeing to it that they had water. So he collected rain water to last for a couple weeks...except the rainwater would be heavily contaminated by radiation. They quickly run out of food (some of their stock having been burned to a crisp by the blast), and their health worsened to where James could hardly walk straight, and he and his wife were becoming spitting images of skeletons. Despite all this, they still had faith that their government would save them, not realizing the likelihood that the government was eradicated in the blast, or if theoretically there was still a running government, they would be concerned with the cities first before considering going to the countryside.
Hilda's hair starts to fall out, and she suggests that she and James go back into the shelter to pray. At this point, they knew they were dying, so they were wanting to go somewhere safe to await the end.
Can they defend themselves?
From nuclear fall out caused by a bomb getting dropped? Hell no. James himself believes he could provide for the two of them, but all of his efforts fail miserably. In the end, he is broken, realizing the gravity of the situation. So no Iron Woobie there.
Sympathy Standard (for jerks)
They are the only two characters in the film. It is mentioned that they had a son, but he doesn't physically appear, nor does he play a major role in the film. Even though the two have moments of bickering with each other, it is made clear that they deeply care for each other, if being married for years was any indication. While James does get hot with Hilda when he learns that it would be a few minutes for the bomb to drop, he is only doing that because he thought his wife wasn't taking the situation seriously.
And if you feel that they were stupid for not taking the idea of a nuclear holocaust seriously, keep in mind, that they both survived the world wars which included weapons such as mustard gas or tanks. They simply did not comprehend what nuclear war was, nor did they know anything about fallout, radiation sickness. The point that the film is making is that much like with other people, they had a blind faith in their government, and why shouldn't they? They believe that they owe their livelihood to the government for helping them through rough times. The film itself is a warning on the threats nuclear war could wage on nations if they were to hypothetically happen. Nuclear war effects everyone, even those who wouldn't hurt a fly would die indiscriminately.
Edited by AustinDR on Oct 16th 2018 at 11:33:46 AM
Woobie.Comic Books' Tony Stark entry is stupidly long and has a lot of parts that are nattery or make other heroes look bad.
"* Poor Tony Stark's never-ending train of life-suckitude is probably second only to that of Spider-Man, especially before the Modern Age, living through kidnapping, torture, heart problems, evil girlfriends, murderous ex-friends, alcoholism, brainwashing, terrible luck, and dozens of plots to make his life a living hell that would put Daredevil's iconic torment by the Kingpin to shame, all sprinkled with Survivor's Guilt. Oh, and once he was mind-controlled by Kang and forced to murder a whole bunch of innocent people and some Avengers teammates. And later he was mind-controlled and forced to blow up a commercial jet full of about 200 innocent people. It gets worse: Remember, Tony's a genius, so he knows the dangers of alcohol poisoning. You know what motivated him to drink? He hated himself that much he wanted to die, and tried to kill himself with booze. And, to make life worse, after one drink during the apparent end of the world during The Serpent's invasion, where he gave up everything he could to make Odin see that humanity wasn't worthless, he's now being blackmailed by the Mandarin-controlled American government, they've somehow managed to twist one drink during the end of the world into permission for them to attach a power limiter to Iron Man which can shut off his powers (when the General doing so in question deserted during fear itself...). Due to this, he's had to watch his best friend die just a few feet away from him. He also rarely, if ever, gets any real support from his "family" for any of the crap he goes through; even Steve Rogers, his best friend, has all but abandoned him at some of the worst parts of his life. The general consensus seems to be that he needs to just get over it. When he was homeless for a while and nearly died, they were nowhere to be found. He was canonically suicidal — as mentioned above, the alcoholism was a prolonged attempt at suicide, and not a very subtle one at that — and not a single one of them noticed. They only finally confronted him about his drinking when it started inconveniencing them. He's dragged himself up from rock bottom by pure willpower countless times, and the only reaction he ever gets is "Well, it's about damn time." And then they wonder why he's such a mess and why he tends to spiral into self-destructive behaviour. And after all of that trauma and pain, he never stops trying to be a good person. He's made a lot of mistakes, but he's always done what he thought was right regardless of what it might cost him personally. Which has also been the root cause of many of his screw-ups. Most people would have thrown in the towel by this point, but Tony keeps trying. The closest he gets to getting credit for this is when people stop giving him shit for the times he has screwed up. And unlike Peter Parker, Tony gets zero sympathy, possibly because he's rich, so clearly he's got it made.
Btw sure on your candidates Austin. Also, for Tony... Hmmmm maybe we could either condense, cut or move him on other category.
Hi mind if I join. If not yeah to the candidates so far.
Edit: Also found this under Lord Drakkon, who just got approved as a CM so axed it.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 16th 2018 at 7:17:29 AM
I've got a question for you people.
How many woobies are needed for a separate page?
Well, the Complete Monster thread typically makes a new sub-page when a franchise has about eight examples. So, I think that's a good number to work with in regards to making sub-pages.
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How well does it match the trope?