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Why has Social Justice and Feminism become such Pervasive Topics?

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#126: Sep 3rd 2018 at 12:51:30 AM

Frankly, I think it just depends. There are characters where a race or gender-lift is more easily accepted than with others, and some of this are narrative reasons and part of it is just attachment.

Ie I would violently oppose the notion of a female James Bond, because James Bond is, for the better or the worse, the most "male" character in literature outside of maybe Tarzan. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to see a female spy sleeping around with whoever she wants on screen. But I wouldn't want a character like this being called "Jamie Bond" or something equally nonsensical.

I also take another Franny Fisher over a gender-flipped Sherlock Holmes any day. If they really want to gender-flip a character in the Sherlock Holmes canon, it should be Mycroft imho.

In general, just because someone has trouble with the notion of race lifting or gender flipping a specific character doesn't mean that said person feels the same way about every possible race or gender flip.

If someone is complaining about a new character being female - ie about the new leads in Star Wars, then he is full of sh... You can have honest issues with the writing of those movies, but not with the basic idea of making the people running around in the universe more diverse.

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#127: Sep 3rd 2018 at 1:15:20 AM

I've seen some fiction with a female Sherlock Holmes. Unfinished alas, as is common with Interactive Comics.

Edited by Medinoc on Sep 3rd 2018 at 10:15:24 AM

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#128: Sep 3rd 2018 at 1:49:17 AM

IMHO, a female 007 and a female Sherlock would not be dealbreakers for me. Just as long as 007 still prefers her martinis shaken, not stirred.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#129: Sep 3rd 2018 at 2:35:11 AM

To elaborate, I am not saying that either can't be fun, but I also think that a character like this would be Sherlock Holmes or James Bond in name only. And I would rather have an individual take on the notion of a lady detective or Superspy than having the name slapped on them for marketing reasons.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#130: Sep 3rd 2018 at 2:42:14 AM

I mean, is there really anything about Sherlock that requires Sherlock to be male? Or 007 for that matter? And speaking of Sherlock, I should mention that one series already tried the gender change thing with Watson and Moriarty. And of course there's Miss Sherlock.

Edited by M84 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 5:45:34 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#131: Sep 3rd 2018 at 2:46:39 AM

I feel it is relevant to bring up that there is a Japanese produced Sherlock Holmes that reimagined Holmes as a woman.

https://www.themarysue.com/miss-sherlock-trailer/

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#132: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:08:03 AM

[up][up] If you set the story in its original setting, yes, because a woman wouldn't have been able to be that kind of detective back then. Just changing the gender would change the whole character so much that it would become Holmes by name only.

And naturally you "can" do pretty much everything. But if you "Should" do it, and if this results still in an adaptation or something which is an adaptation in name only is a different question. And I think it is entirely understandable that some fans are resistent to changes. And said change doesn't even have to be about gender or race, I mean, remember the fuss around the web coming out of the wrist in the first Spider-Man trilogy?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#133: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:14:34 AM

I just don't think this is something that one should "violently oppose", as you said. I'd reserve that for things like "making the character a bigger asshole than in canon" or "making the character a borderline stalker", things the Iron Fist series does with Danny Rand.

Edited by M84 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:15:46 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#134: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:15:20 AM

[up][up]I always found that particular gripe to be pointless. Why wouldn't the spider give Peter natural web spinning?

And before you bring up where spiders make their webbing from, let me remind you that Peter didn't grow six extra eyes or four extra limbs when he was bitten.

Edited by windleopard on Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:17:48 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#135: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:16:01 AM

Seconded. It's actually one of the changes I liked compared to the comics.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Millership from Kazakhstan Since: Jan, 2014
#136: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:20:07 AM

I remember watching a show about Mycroft's grand-something-daughter when I was a kid. Can's say how much of Sherlock's character she "inherited" but it was a fun show in its own right.

Spiral out, keep going.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#137: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:21:15 AM

For example, I wouldn't mind a fanfic where the characters' gender was changed. I would mind a fanfic where the characters', well, character was significantly altered by making them super angsty and whiny.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#138: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:21:42 AM

People do tend to get hung up on "realism" in the most arbitrary and awkward of times. The very idea of some dude getting powers from a radioactive spider (or the spider itself being magical) is already fantastical in either direction.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#139: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:40:21 AM

I remember that we had this discussion over in the "Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction" once.

That was my response back then:

Personally, I've been always in favour of creating new characters instead of changing existing ones.

Mainly for two reasons. Firstly, the aforementioned "if you change x about a character, is it still the same character?"

The second issue I see is one of laziness, so to speak. Changing a pre-existing character's physical trait always seemed like kind of a cheap and lazy way to get more representation for specific groups in media.

Simply changing a pre-existing one always felt a bit like whoever did the change was trying to completely rely on the original character's pre-established popularity, while an original character has to stand on their own feet.

Hence why I'd rather see people actually create new and interesting characters instead of just ticking a checkbox and saying "Yeah, x character is now y."

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#140: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:46:24 AM

By that logic, we shouldn't be making any adaptations of older characters. Because all adaptations and remakes and such make some changes to the characters while (hopefully) remaining true to what made the characters memorable in the first place.

I'm of the mind that adaptations are fine as long as they don't change the core of the character. And a lot of times, the character's gender and/or race and/or sexuality isn't crucial to that. Which is why I am fine with changing the gender of characters while not being fine with things like Darker and Edgier remakes unless they are written very well.

Edited by M84 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:49:33 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
SteamKnight Since: Jun, 2018
#141: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:50:49 AM

If I have a problem with the race or gender-lifting stuff is that it tends to come off as lazy most of the times. I do understand where it comes from. It's easier to cash in from a franchise with a strong fanbase than creating a new franchise and establishing a new fanbase from the scratch. Not to mention, the creators are rarely able to take advantage from having the "new" protagonist, background, and viewpoint, making the entire thing more lazy.

Of course, it isn't easy writing a "new" character that still have the essence of the old character without it coming off as you writing a new OC and you just slap some name from an established character or historical figure to make it more "legit" and pretentious, but it isn't impossible.

I have no problem with race or gender-lifting inherently. I just prefer new stuff or at least the creators really make sure that the changes are meaningful. But if it's done well and competently, why would I complain.

I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#142: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:53:12 AM

For example, there's the current Voltron series. This series has made some changes such as making one character homosexual and another character a girl while still trying to be recognizably Voltron. It does seem rather Darker and Edgier than the original series, but it does it without completely borking it up.

[up]All of that is less an argument against gender and racelifting and an argument against lazy writing.

Edited by M84 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:55:59 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#143: Sep 3rd 2018 at 3:58:52 AM

So, what is "violent opposing" something? Saying that you don't like the idea doesn't qualify, imho, and there are few people out there which would start petitions about it.

I just want to point out that while there are people who are simply sexist and racist, there are also a lot of other reasons why one might oppose a change in one particular character. And the more popular a character is, the more attached people are to it.

Ie the whole Doctor Who discussion. I for my part think that you can do whatever you want with the character, after all each version of him is supposed to be different. But I also have a certain degree of understanding that someone people have trouble to wrap their head around the notion. Now, if they start their argument why the switch is bad with "those damned SJ Ws", then they aren't worth listening to, but if they say that they simply can't imagine the doctor as anything but male, well, maybe a new version will win them over eventually. And if it doesn't, it might not even be for that reason, there are lot of reasons why someone might not like a particular character.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#144: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:00:49 AM

[up]TBF, you were the one who said you "violently oppose" changing the gender of 007. So would you start petitions over it or something?

Ie I would violently oppose the notion of a female James Bond, because James Bond is, for the better or the worse, the most "male" character in literature outside of maybe Tarzan. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to see a female spy sleeping around with whoever she wants on screen. But I wouldn't want a character like this being called "Jamie Bond" or something equally nonsensical.

Edited by M84 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:04:45 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
SteamKnight Since: Jun, 2018
#145: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:14:37 AM

[up][up][up] As I have said before I have nothing against race or gender-lifting. It isn't inherently a bad thing. Unfortunately, just like all those "transported to another world" stories, there is nothing wrong with it inherently, the execution just tend to suck or come off as lazy and mediocre most of the times.

Edited by SteamKnight on Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:18:37 PM

I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#146: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:17:21 AM

The problem with the isekai stuff is that the market is glutted with it since it's apparently popular. And you know what Sturgeon's Law says...there's a lot of it out there, which makes the fact that a lot of the writers are kind of shit a lot easier to observe.

But all that's still just an argument against lazy writing. And any trope and plot can be ruined by it.

Edited by M84 on Sep 3rd 2018 at 7:18:24 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
SteamKnight Since: Jun, 2018
#147: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:32:10 AM

[up] I guess the most important lesson about race and gender-lifting is also pretty much the most obvious, don't suck or be lazy when writing it. [lol][lol][lol]

I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#148: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:35:03 AM

Precisely. Tropes Are Tools, and any tool can be dangerous in the hands of lazy and incompetent people.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#149: Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:54:08 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]Yeah, I worded that stronger than intended...it was more referring to how I would feel personally about it, not about the kind of actions I would take. After all, if I don't like a movie or TV show, nobody forces me to watch it.

Edited by Swanpride on Sep 3rd 2018 at 4:53:56 AM

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#150: Sep 3rd 2018 at 6:24:15 AM

I agree with not flipping Sherlock in the original setting but I can see a black or female Holmes in a modern setting. As for 007 that depends. I can see it if you treat "James Bond" as a created identity with several holders. Or if "Jane Bond" was introduced as James daughter, starting as a sidekick then taking over the role of 007 after her father dies heroically. Or of syphilis. I mean he probably has enough illegitimate children to populate a small country.

Trump delenda est

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