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Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3126: Apr 7th 2023 at 10:18:16 PM

Huh.

I'm...rather surprised that fight led to such controversy?

Maybe I'm coming from a different perspective because, frankly, most of the characters in JJK aren't ones I have as much of a strong emotional pull towards (even if I like a lot of them, I can't say I've ever really gotten into Yuji or Megumi's emotions or thoughts), but I thought she went out in a pretty badass fight that, yeah, didn't stop Kenjaku, but, y'know, it feels customary to have one of those fights where someone gives it their all but the villain doesn't go down right away. Certainly I wouldn't compare it to friggin' *Stars and Stripes*, which I maintain is infinitely worse writing (I love MHA so much but god that was so dumb).

Like, going back through the past few pages, I'm kind of surprised by all the negativity I'm seeing. I usually feel like I'm more negative about stuff than other people here, but this time I'm a little more positive? There's a few battle shonen I'd rank higher than JJK, but I still enjoy the fight scenes and how Akutami manages to keep introducing random new characters with crazy personalities that are *still* pretty darn endearing.

Edited by Diana1969 on Apr 7th 2023 at 12:20:05 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#3127: Apr 7th 2023 at 10:31:04 PM

The thing is Gege unfortunately fell into the whole "savior of feminism" label fans like to place on any mangeka with at first decent female characters

So the moment women started getting worfed people started turning on them

Happens with every rising shonen mangeka

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3128: Apr 7th 2023 at 10:43:08 PM

The thing is Gege unfortunately fell into the whole "savior of feminism" label fans like to place on any mangeka with at first decent female characters

So the moment women started getting worfed people started turning on them

Happens with every rising shonen mangeka

Yeah and it's...I can rant about how there's room for genuine criticisms and a lot of nuance in the discussion, but I've done that like a billion times by now and I kinda wanna go to bed tonight.

I'm just going to say, from my perspective as I read it, I was surprised it spurred such a backlash because I thoroughly enjoyed the fight. But again, JJK is not a manga where I'm super in love with some of the characters like I am with other shonen. If it was One Piece, MHA, or Black Clover, sure, but there's only a few characters in JJK I can point to as ones I *genuinely* adore. So I guess I was just reading it thinking "Boom boom fun fight scene" and nothing else. Akutami knows how to draw some great fight scenes.

If anything, the female character whose death (well, "death", but at this point I don't think she's coming back) really grabbed me is Nobara's. She's definitely one of my favorites and there's something missing without her there post-Shibuya. Her last scene in Shibuya was genuinely emotional (wasn't too into the backstory flashback, though) but it leaves me feeling bitter that she's not there anymore.

At least there's still Maki...and yeah, I know she's kind of become a divisive character in this thread and all (and god, I *REALLY* miss her old design, I prefer that to her post-Shibuya look) but I liked the one character moment she had in Sakurajima. Minus that, she's just a little too dour lately, I miss when she could be cocky.

RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3129: Apr 7th 2023 at 11:29:13 PM

One of my favorite Maki scenes is when she decided to just break her staff in half so she could throw it at Miwa as she tried setting up her Simple Domain.

There's so much to love about it, how she does what would normally be seen as reckless but is actually a multi-layered plan she comes up with on the fly, the sheer intensity she gives off as she presses her advantage on poor Miwa, the ferocity behind her overall actions when she had actually shown she liked Miwa after learning how kind she is demonstrating Maki won't hold back on anyone, it pretty much shows Maki is kickass, intelligent, all with a bit of an Awesome Ego. She was just fun to watch and enjoy.

She pretty much has lost that aspect ever since she became Toji 2.0. I'm not joking either, since it feels like the traits that made Maki "Maki" are all but gone in favor of making her a female Toji. Its a case of Same Character, But Different.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 7th 2023 at 2:36:28 PM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#3130: Apr 8th 2023 at 1:23:16 AM

I mean

is not hard to argue that the death of, y'know, her twin sister has affected her somewhat

Bewitching Eyes
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3131: Apr 8th 2023 at 2:03:14 AM

[up]The fact Mai got killed off for the sole reason of giving Maki angst and a power up though is an entire issue in and of itself.

My point being, that the direction Maki as a character has been taken ever since post-Shibuya has been... for lack of a better term, "problematic". Stripped of her original characterization, the one character she had a big connection too outside of Okkotsu gets killed for a power up/development, and she pretty much becomes a near copy of another character that is less interesting than who she used to be?

Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 8th 2023 at 5:03:46 AM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Mami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#3132: Apr 8th 2023 at 3:11:32 AM

My primary criticism towards Maki is that her plot was abruptly resolved. Her wanting to show off to the zenins and get stronger was......somewhat achieved, and Yuki who was interested in what her condition could lead to is presumably paying her fare to the river Styx and so she kind of ends up having not that much strong ties to the overarching narrative because most of the things that mattered to her are dead. Gege does at least address her aimlessness (to what degree you're satisfied with it, YMMV) but it just ends up looping back to my other issues with the story.

Also I feel like people who keep on declaring that she's just become a copy of Toji do not remember how Toji's personality actually was.

Edited by Mami on Apr 8th 2023 at 11:12:22 AM

I absolutely cannot help but adore handsome 2D boys
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#3133: Apr 8th 2023 at 3:23:50 AM

Toji was an arrogant prick who really loved combat.

Meanwhile Maki does comes across as emotionally dead, you don't get the feeling she's enjoying any of this anymore.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Samaldin Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3134: Apr 8th 2023 at 8:51:24 AM

I think Maki regained some joy after the training session with the sumo guy.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3135: Apr 8th 2023 at 9:05:16 AM

I think Maki regained some joy after the training session with the sumo guy.

I actually kinda agree with that and I genuinely liked that scene (surprised that whole side of the Culling Game is so disliked here) but Maki still feels off to me lately. I do agree that killing Mai off for the sake of Maki's development felt kind of abrupt and...yeah, a little bit problematic.

I don't agree that Maki has become a complete clone of Toji but I do agree she's lost a little something that I liked about her pre-Shibuya. Yes, it's a bit of development due to everything going dark and all, but...it's not a development I particularly like.

...Maki killing off her clan was awesome as fuck though.

Mami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
#3136: Apr 8th 2023 at 9:06:22 AM

I needed it to come 5 arcs later than it did.

I absolutely cannot help but adore handsome 2D boys
RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#3137: Apr 8th 2023 at 9:47:47 AM

I probably should have clarified that I meant design wise when I said "near-clone of Toji", especially when people In-Universe kept saying "She's the new Toji", with it looking like the new role in the narrative being pretty much just that, becoming like Toji physically and ability wise, but trying not to become like him personality wise. And Slimcoder is right in that she pretty much comes off as emotionally dead, which isn't really as fun for me.

    What I mean by "Fun" 
Part of the reason I liked so many of the characters in this series is because of how fun they could be. Look no further than Yuji, Nobara, Gojo, Todo, Panda, and even Mahito. They knew when to take itself seriously, like with Junpei's tragic death, but it was never too serious, and the series knew how to take itself less seriously overall. Hell, we have Gakuganji, an old fart who seems like an ordinary old asshole, but wears a rocker t-shirt underneath his robes and rocks out on an electric guitar while being an admitted fan of Jimmy Hendrix, or Yaga, who looks like the toughest no-nonsense guy you could find for a Principal, but fights with living stuffed animals that have a propensity for dancing upon victory when not punching Yuji in the face.

Ever since Shibuya though... it feels like that "fun" aspect has been severely downplayed. Don't get me wrong, there is still some fun aspects, like how Ishigori looked like he walked out of JoJo's, Takaba has this whole Cringe Comedy aspect, and Hakari can be pretty goofy with his Slot Machine technique. But it feels like the series has lost some of what made it fun for me, especially when so many of the characters I mentioned that seemed "fun" are gone now. Gojo is sealed away, Yaga and Mahito are dead, Nobara and Inumaki are injured and who knows where (with Nobara possibly being dead too), we haven't seen Todo since, etc.
And what's happened with Maki seems like a microcosm of all that. It's like watching the Adam West Batman turn into the Christian Bale Batman within the same story. It's why I listed Same Character, But Different, cause Maki as she is now is very different from how Maki was before Shibuya.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 8th 2023 at 12:50:19 PM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3138: Apr 8th 2023 at 9:58:06 AM

That's actually a really good summation of my thoughts.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#3139: Apr 8th 2023 at 3:06:18 PM

Maki has never been one of my favorites, because once you get past her gimmick she's pretty boring, but at least in the beginning she had a fun personality and a backstory that made you want to root for her. Now both of those things are gone and the character is basically nothing. And that's in a story which I'm actually not that super into it for the characters.

Also, it's very clear the author cares way more about Toji than I do and the whole "second coming of Toji Zenin" or whatever was supposed be a big thing, but like, it isn't? He was a piece of shit that got ganked by Gojo when he was like 16, I don't give a shit about another him.

Edited by LSBK on Apr 8th 2023 at 7:12:28 AM

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#3140: Apr 8th 2023 at 5:05:50 PM

Toji had raw cool factor, which was enough to carry him as a character, but not much else. Maki doesn't hit those same notes no matter how much the characters shill it. And man, Yuki was even worse than Star and Stripes for me, at least the latter hadn't been hyped up for years beforehand.

I'll discuss it tomorrow with the official release, but this week's chapter... just makes me wonder what the hell the point of it all was. Tsumiki is why they got into the culling game to begin with. I'm sliding dangerously close to Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3141: Apr 8th 2023 at 5:38:32 PM

And man, Yuki was even worse than Star and Stripes for me, at least the latter hadn't been hyped up for years beforehand.

I guess my impression is different since I'd only been catching up on it over like a month or so. None of the same buildup for me.

I'm also not really big on Toji in the first place? He was a fun villain in the flashback arc (which is definitely my second favorite arc...the Shibuya arc is number one) but that's...kind of it? I dunno. I know he's a huge hit with the fans but I don't really get it.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#3142: Apr 8th 2023 at 5:41:02 PM

I think the Yuki fight was better than Stars and Stripes because the Yuki fight served the purpose of showing off Kenjaku's fighting style. With Stars and Stripes we'd already gotten plenty of Super-Shigaraki so it felt extra pointless.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#3143: Apr 8th 2023 at 5:48:48 PM

Yuki does feel pretty pointless if she's dead, but the caveat is that I'm not totally sure she is. But if she is I'm less annoyed by that than if the Angel is actually gone.

At least Yuki got a pretty good fight, all things considered.

burninganimefan357 Since: Oct, 2012
#3144: Apr 8th 2023 at 11:09:32 PM

What happened to Hana actually annoyed me way more than Yuki because it relied on her completely falling for Sukuna's obvious deception and coming close enough for him to bite a chunk out of her despite Angel's warning simply because she was in love with Megumi.

thuse from see timezone Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Whoa, they're bisexual! I didn't know that!
#3145: Apr 9th 2023 at 8:16:50 AM

Chapter 219:
OMG that flashback version of Sukuna (I think...)... Just, ugh... Also, that last panel of Fushiguro is a goddamn MOOD, so much so that I bet fresh emo kids would use it like crazy...

asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#3146: Apr 9th 2023 at 8:35:03 AM

at least we finally know what sukuna actually looks like now

And as expected, he has more than a passing resemblance to Yuuji

Edited by asterism on Apr 9th 2023 at 4:35:22 PM

Bewitching Eyes
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#3147: Apr 9th 2023 at 8:40:23 AM

Well, that was a thing that happened I guess, lol. Sucks to be Megumi's sister. Or Megumi.

Edited by alekos23 on Apr 9th 2023 at 6:40:36 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#3148: Apr 9th 2023 at 8:41:12 AM

At this rate the Zenins really will be extinct

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
asterism from the place I'm at Since: Apr, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#3149: Apr 9th 2023 at 8:42:08 AM

Tsumiki isn't a Zenin

Edited by asterism on Apr 9th 2023 at 4:42:31 PM

Bewitching Eyes
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#3150: Apr 9th 2023 at 9:00:50 AM

@asterim, we've seen what Sukuna actually looks like before.

Anyway, I actually ended up forgetting why all of this was even happening but I guess Tsumiki's fucking dead. Which I'm not surprised by, and don't really care about, but still.

And Sukuna has tamed Mahoraga.


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