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Joker film series (by Todd Phillips)

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LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#2076: Oct 19th 2024 at 4:28:59 AM

Wow, that explanation from Philips is genuinely disgusting and cynical in a really bad way.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2077: Oct 19th 2024 at 4:35:08 AM

Yeah he just put a rape implication and refused to actually engage with how it affects Arthur beyond speed running him to being repentant.

Hell, Philip's comments don't even match the story being told because for most of this film, Arthur is in Arthur mode, he's not doing any active crimes to change the system, he's being bullied and manipulated for most of the film.

I don't even think the story Philips is outlining is bad, it's just not matching what's on camera and refusing to actually engage meaningfully with the fact he used rape in this kind of movie.

Even Ricky's death is just treated as an afterthought, and the movie acts like the rape was what broke Joker.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
DrSleep Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
#2078: Oct 19th 2024 at 5:12:42 AM

[up]remember back in Hangover 1 when the other characters make fun of Ed Helms for “letting” his girlfriend hit him? Can we really be surprised?

TomWithoutJerry Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good. from Where Might Makes Right and I have no Might. Since: Dec, 2023
Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good.
#2079: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:31:57 AM

What a legacy to leave behind — a bunch of killers in clown makeup. Arthur would have been better off a nobody.

Like the new female DA told the inmates in Batman the Animated Series, if they hadn't taken on costumed identities by following someone's example they still would be terrorizing Gotham another way. Gotham City was crooked and dismal long before Arthur put on makeup and those criminals he inspired likely would turn to other kind of crime, anyway. The issue is normally Batman shows up and also inspires others to do good, but in this version of Gotham that'd be unfeasible, so the outlook of the world is too bleak for the audiences to care at all.

Please remember that, ultimately, fictional works of entertainment are just that.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#2080: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:33:09 AM

They probably would have gone on to do horrible shit regardless. But having a symbol to elevate them just makes it worse.

Symbols have power. That's why Bruce created the Batman identity. In the DCAU when he tried vigilantism as Bruce and covering his face, the crooks weren't the least bit intimidated. Bruce was already capable of kicking their asses, but that wasn't enough. He created the Batman because "criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot". That's also why said DA argued that it was criminals (like the rogues gallery) who created Batman.

I also don't see why Bruce becoming Batman someday would be unfeasible in this version of Gotham. Gotham in every adaptation is a wretched forsaken shithole of a city. What makes Bruce into Batman is that he refused to accept that.

Edited by M84 on Oct 19th 2024 at 9:38:15 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
TomWithoutJerry Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good. from Where Might Makes Right and I have no Might. Since: Dec, 2023
Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good.
#2081: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:37:19 AM

But the setting makes it impossible for a funnybook style Joker to exist. None of the people Fleck inspired would be able to build building sized toys to blow the city up, they'd just be shot or put in prison for the rest of their lives, most of them would just collapse under the pressure like Arthur did or be wiped by more pragmatic criminals like the mob. In real life a Long Halloween setting would go the other way, the mafia would eliminate the freaks. Eventually the Joker would become a fleeting fad and that'd be it.

BTW, this Harley is more actually Punchline.

Please remember that, ultimately, fictional works of entertainment are just that.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#2082: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:40:40 AM

She's also like the comics Joker. She invents a sob story to manipulate someone into evil, gleefully partakes in violence, and then admits that said sob story was complete bullshit. And even the "truth" she reveals could be just another lie. Ultimately, we don't really know for certain why she decided to engage in this evil, and maybe it doesn't matter why.

In real life a Long Halloween setting would go the other way, the mafia would eliminate the freaks. Eventually the Joker would become a fleeting fad and that'd be it.

Though in Long Halloween they were easily taken out because Batman had already done a lot to weaken their power. It's one of Batman's bitterest victories, since he knows he unwittingly helped create a power vacuum for the costumed rogues in Gotham.

Edited by M84 on Oct 19th 2024 at 9:44:17 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
TomWithoutJerry Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good. from Where Might Makes Right and I have no Might. Since: Dec, 2023
Tyranny Bad, Democracy Good.
#2083: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:43:42 AM

I also don't see why Bruce becoming Batman someday would be unfeasible in this version of Gotham.

He would become Batman but wouldn't last over a week in the job.

Please remember that, ultimately, fictional works of entertainment are just that.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#2084: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:47:51 AM

Imagine if that was what happened in the sequel instead. A flash forward to Bruce becoming Batman...and being riddled with bullets within a week of putting on the costume.

Disgusted, but not surprised
king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#2085: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:48:38 AM

If they ever want to make a Black Comedy Joker film (probably not this film though), that would actually be pretty funny.

Edited by king15 on Oct 19th 2024 at 1:48:49 PM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2086: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:49:30 AM

[up][up][up] I mean, he pulled it off in Gotham, and became Man.

[lol]

But for real, Gotham proved you can have a younger Bruce as a teen and going around solving crimes.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 19th 2024 at 9:50:17 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2087: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:52:25 AM

BTW, this Harley is more actually Punchline.

Honestly, this Harley fails at even that, since at least Punchline had actual established reasons for being a monster fangirl. Harley is in love with Joker because............she's an audience stand-in.

Hell, the idea of a Harley who was more evil than the Joker and manipulating him, was done in Tell Tale Batman.

And much better.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 19th 2024 at 9:55:45 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#2088: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:53:31 AM

Is there ANYTHING this movie has done that hasn't been done before but better?

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2089: Oct 19th 2024 at 6:55:32 AM

Even the Joker rape thing was done first by 4Chan according to other tropers. I don't know details, because I refuse to go to 4Chan.

Oh yeah, and AVGN.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
DrSleep Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
#2090: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:00:36 AM

@M84 Mark Miller’s Batman Year One

Ego-Man25 Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#2091: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:01:59 AM

So essentially Folie á Deux's Achilles' Heel is that it's derivative. It has all been done before.

[down] Bonus points: the Joker there is voiced by Mark Hamill.

Edited by Ego-Man25 on Oct 19th 2024 at 7:03:31 AM

Self-professed Wild Card who thinks cynicism isn't so bad.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#2092: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:02:14 AM

Robot Chicken had a sketch where they parody The Shawshank Redemption by setting it in Arkham Asylum, and the Joker avoids "the sodomites" by tricking them into thinking one of those carnival balloon burst clowns is him.

DrSleep Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
#2093: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:04:58 AM

[up][up]Technically the first movie suffers from the same problem. Try to find a review of Joker that doesn’t mention Taxi Driver, The King of Comedy or Scorsese in general.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2094: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:05:02 AM

[up][up][up] It doesn't help that Philips actively refuses to engage with the source material and thinks his Arthur character is deeper than he actually is, and doesn't need the Joker and comic book stuff like Batman to be successful and beloved by audiences.

Which is the meta reason for why this movie wants to separate Arthur and Joker to the point Arthur had to be regressed.

So Philips wouldn't really understand that Gotham did Joker 2 but way better, and let me tell you, Gotham had some REALLY AWFUL lows.

[up] Yeah, Philips just has an issue with being original but at least Joker 1 was able to stand on it's own.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 19th 2024 at 10:07:05 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#2095: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:06:50 AM

@Ego-Man 25

So essentially Folie á Deux's Achilles' Heel is that it's derivative. It has all been done before.

The main issue is trying to do all of that in one movie. It's like a really shitty buffet.

Edited by M84 on Oct 19th 2024 at 10:07:08 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ego-Man25 Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#2097: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:08:25 AM

I've been to some really good ones. But those cost more than the $20 or less you pay to go to a Golden Corral (and I say this as a fan of Golden Corral).

Disgusted, but not surprised
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#2098: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:08:51 AM

@Red What about Joker courtoom antics?

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#2099: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:09:10 AM

[up][up][up] And it's like if someone made the buffet to spite people who think the first buffet was really good in order to attract some imaginary smarter audience.

[up] Been done in the Batman the Animated Series. Joker was the judge there.

But as for Joker actually being in the courtroom? There was actually an old series called Joker Time that also was something like that albeit on a live reality TV.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 19th 2024 at 10:10:49 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#2100: Oct 19th 2024 at 7:11:57 AM

I do wonder what made Philips so spiteful towards people who think Arthur Fleck is actually sympathetic to put them in the same group who think Arthur Fleck was right?

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."

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