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I'm digging this.
Crazy thought: what if that kid we saw in the trailer was little Bruce Wayne?
Maybe Joaquin Phoenix!Joker will be the one who kills the Waynes a la Batman (1989). (Spoiler blocking in case it turns out to actually happen.)
EDIT: It just hit me that this movie is coming 30 years after the one I just mentioned in the spoiler block.
Edited by TargetmasterJoe on Apr 3rd 2019 at 4:47:37 AM
I'm torn. On one hand, this movie definitely has its own style and feel to it that'll make it stand out among its contemporaries. It's ambitious, and it looks like Phoenix is going to give a hell of a performance as the Joker.
On the other hand, I'm concerned about how much this film is going to try and make the Joker sympathetic. We see him getting the shit kicked out of him quite a few times and the trailer makes him look like a troubled man who was pushed too far. Yes, most Joker stories have be a guy who had "one bad day", but focusing so much on it might make it seem like he's someone we're supposed to root for. Maybe the film might portray the Joker as an asshole who just needed an excuse to lash out at the world, so I'll wait and see.
I'm already seeing a few people on Twitter being concerned this film might attract a Misaimed Fandom, like those who thought Tyler Durden was the real hero of Fight Club or that the Joker was completely right in The Dark Knight. With (presumably) no Batman to counter his claims, that is a slippery slope that might happen. Needless to say, expect think pieces upon this film's release. A looooot of think pieces.
So this film's looking good. I'm down for it. The performance, especially, is spectacular. If the film pulls it off as well as the trailer did, this will be a really good one.
I kinda feel bad for Jared Leto, though, being sandwiched between one amazing Joker and what's looking like another amazing Joker.
Welp, I finally got what I wanted after that little makeup test several months ago...and now I'm mixed.
On the one hand, Joaquin Phoenix is already proving himself to be a fantastic Joker. That one moment where he pointedly asks "What?" at what appears to be an Arkham orderly is the most chilling for me. The cinematography is beautiful, my favorite shot in particular being at the beginning where Arthur is solemnly walking next to the pharmacy store. And I'm really digging the licensed songs they managed to get for this movie so far. And, dammit, I do find myself sympathizing with Arthur over several moments in this trailer.
...On the other hand, that's a problem. And it's one I feared would come up when I heard the filmmakers were going for a Taxi Driver vibe. Y'see, what makes Taxi Driver work is that Travis Bickle is not a tragic innocent who turns bad because of society. His case of loneliness makes him slightly sympathetic, sure, but the movies always stresses that he was fucked long before society ever got a hold of him. He's not likable and certainly not someone you root for. And the fact that this movie appears to have missed that doesn't bode well.
I've seen several people express that concern, especially in the age of mass shooters with weird incel leanings ("Society mistreated me and girls won't fuck me, so I'm gonna go shoot up a school. That'll show 'em!")
I think my ideal ending would be something implying Fleck is an unreliable narrator and that the preceding film may or may not be what actually happened, similar to the Joker's established Multiple-Choice Past tendencies in the comics.
The end of the movie comes. Batman is sitting at a hospice table across the Joker.
"Was any of that true?"
The Joker shrugs.
I've considered that there's more to this than what the trailer is showing. Hell, I'm actively hoping they'll go the "Case Study" by Paul Dini route and reveal that Arthur's Obfuscating Insanity in order to justify his cruelty (my personal favorite interpretation of the Joker).
However, even if they did end up going that route, would it be enough? It's going to take more than a 5 second "Surprise, we actually DON'T want you to sympathize with Joker!" message at the end to offset the entire rest of the film's unfortunate implications.
Edited by 1upmushroom on Apr 3rd 2019 at 3:32:03 AM
Finally a movie that doesn't oppress gamers.
Edited by ReynTime250 on Apr 3rd 2019 at 11:56:25 AM
Maybe this standalone-approach really is the shift the DCU needed? They seem to be pushing out winners now.
Out of all the films that end up looking good... I went from thinking this movie shouldn't exist to googling Joaquin Phoenix's entire career. This could be another Suicide Squad - great trailer, garbage movie - but damn if I'm not excited for this.
This looks like the supervillain movie that SS should have been. Funny given how underutilized the Supervillain Formerly Known As The Joker was in that movie.
Edited by Soble on Apr 3rd 2019 at 5:47:21 AM
This Elseworlds take on films really does have its benefits. One can get actors like Phoenix who don't want to be tied to a franchise, allows writers/editors to focus on the individual story without having to set up for a next installment, and allows for under-performing movies to not entirely change change huge production plans because everything will be self contained anyway.
Why not do a one shot that has Batman's death as a plot point for drama when you don't have to worry about resurrecting in a future movie, for example.
Edited by BorneAgain on Apr 3rd 2019 at 8:18:04 AM
I was very apprehensive about the movie, but damn if the trailer didn't completely sold me on this. Regardless of how the film will turn out, this is a damn brilliant trailer. Everything just works so well.
Edited by Nightwire on Apr 3rd 2019 at 5:47:40 AM
Consider that this is a movie about a character who is often popularized as having no true origin, and it is also an adaption of over 60 years of ideas being poured into a single vessel.
I mean we've already seen the more "Bonnie and Clyde" Joker from Suicide Squad, the perverted murder clown from The Killing Joke, the Lovecraftian supervillain from Endgame, the domestic terorist/tumblr lovechild from The Dark Knight, the Lego version, the political activist from B:White Knight, the wannabe superhero from the Telltale games, and we've even seen his disembodied spirit come back to haunt Bruce in Arkham Knight. We saw a delicate balance of cutthroat villain and Butt-Monkey in the DCAU. Point being: the criteria for this character is vast.
I think it's perfectly fine if the Joker is somewhat sympathetic here. The absolute monster depiction has been overdone.
Besides, sympathy helps the audience become invested in the character. If we started the story with no sympathy at all for this man who is about to turn into an utter monster then we probably wouldn't make it through the first half hour.
This seems like it's going to be a pleasantly entertaining depiction of a man who is about to go completely and irrevocably insane.
Though I suppose that's exactly what you're worried about, it's really not something I would had given thought to. I really doubt this film needs to worry about that fraction of mankind who can't disassociate film villains from role models. That same fraction would likely make fan fiction of the Joker falling in love with their fan OC regardless.
tl,dr: I think it's fine. We never see a sympathetic Joker all that often, and I doubt anyone is going to seriously treat this character as a role model, or romanticize him.
Edited by Soble on Apr 3rd 2019 at 7:16:50 AM
And I have the feeling this Joker won't be a mass murderer. Seems more like he will inspire and incite others to do violence for him.
Uh he's not exactly real ya know.
I think he might he might be more a mastermind yeah.
Edited by slimcoder on Apr 3rd 2019 at 6:21:49 AM
I think you're taking this a bit more seriously than necessary, but hey, if that's how you feel about it...
I have a very strong feeling this will be, shall we say, a more Johan Liebert-like Joker?
Like, he would rarely commits any actual "crimes", but what he does is pushing people around him into it.
Edited by Nightwire on Apr 3rd 2019 at 6:49:05 AM
(2) Forgive me, I'm having a bit of a contact high. I was not expecting a Joker film to impress me and I'm just talkative today.
I compressed most of that rant.
I believe they are referring to Eagal, not you Soble.
That would be interesting especially in contrast to how murder-happy the Joker has become.
Edited by slimcoder on Apr 3rd 2019 at 6:44:35 AM
No, no, not you. Your reaction I quite liked. I was referring to the person talking about how the film seems to lionize a mass murderer.
Ah, I miscounted those arrows. Whoops.
Edited by Soble on Apr 3rd 2019 at 7:17:20 AM
It's the balance between understanding why a person becomes evil and understanding that that doesn't justify the evil he does.
Sometimes the scariest villains are the ones where you know that they're doing terrible things but you can, just for a moment, understand and sympathize with their motivations. That glimpse of humanity underneath the monster can be the most terrifying thing because it reminds us of how we can so easily be corrupted.
If they can nail all that, there's no need to worry.
Edited by edvedd on Apr 3rd 2019 at 8:53:47 AM
Do the blue triangles give anyone else a Gacy vibe?
Joaquin Phoenix looks insanely creepy and unnerving so far, which is really good. It's so good that I kinda feel worry about him. What's with the incredibly demanding physical and mental preparation. Hopefully, I'm just being overly worried and he is doing ok.
I'm excited about this, and I don't think that they are going to romanticised the Joker too much here.
It could be that A.Fleck(lulz)'s life doesn't seem like a complete shitshow, he still has people who try to help him, adore him, etc.., but he still chooses to embrace the insanity and violence, which says more about him than anything. It's just a guess, I could be completely off here.
Also, AFAIK this movie is rated as HARD R, so we haven't really seen any of the fuck-up Joker's antics yet. Any sympathies from the early part of the movie could very well be wiped clean.
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