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Joker film series (by Todd Phillips)

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jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#226: Sep 2nd 2019 at 1:48:42 AM

Most reviews are saying that the Joker is still quite clearly a bad guy by the end so the actual film does seem to avoid lionising him completely.

Oops, page topper reply sorry.

Edited by jakobitis on Sep 2nd 2019 at 1:50:08 AM

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#227: Sep 2nd 2019 at 4:45:43 AM

That's a good thing, but it hasn't really stopped people from misunderstanding the movie's message before. Like somebody else mentioned, there were people quoting the Joker after The Dark Knight in complete seriousness and agreement, as if he wasn't supposed to be the wrong side of the movie.

I've been agreeing with Mushroom more since the last triailer. Whatever the reception and actual message of this film may be, the way it's been presenting itself thus far has been a bit tone-deaf considering... well, everything, as well as the fact that last time a big movie with the Joker came out, there was a major shooting in a movie theater, and the climate has not gotten better since.

None of this is goingto stop me from watching the movie, and if it's good, from enjoying it. This is still looking like it's going to be the best movie I'm going to watch this year, if by Phoenix's performance alone. But the message it might be going for and whatever effect it might have on people and discussions afterwards is still a bit worrysome.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Sep 2nd 2019 at 8:46:53 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#228: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:01:47 AM

Really despite makings its stance clear that Joker truly is fucked up your still gonna hold it against the movie for something beyond its control?

People have been seriously agreeing with the villain's philosophies long before they started doing it with Joker. Shit there are plenty of people who believe Walter White is an inspirational figure despite the show making it clear as day that he is a terrible person you shouldn't look up too.

To hold the actions of other people against the movie is kind of a terrible thing to do.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#229: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:08:06 AM

Well, it's a good thing I'm not holding anything against the movie, then. Haven't said anything about it at any point. What I'm worried about is how other people might understand it, or, at worst, that it's message might inadvertently defend something negative, as the trailers have been inadvertently doing. I'm not accusing the trailers or the movie of defending those ideas, I'm saying that they accidentally give a negative idea of what the movie might be proposing, and that that's a thing they might want to have avoided.

Hell, I've been saying this entire time that I'm hyped for the movie, even while saying that the trailer concerned me a bit.

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#230: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:15:08 AM

The review posted above certainly seems to be.

See, the problem I, and I'm guessing slim as well, have with the notion is that it often feels like nothing short of the director interrupting the movie to tell exactly why the bad guy is bad is enough to make people get the bloody point.

So it's quite frustrating when others accuse the very same of story of being created to glorify the very behavior it condemns, because some other idiots IRL not paying attention to the message of the story being "guys, this is really not cool".

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#231: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:24:25 AM

The nature of the internet is that you will have millions of opinions floating around, and some will hold extreme opinions precisely because they are attracted to the extremes.

One common criticism passed around Suicide Squad was that it apparently "endorsed" the toxic and abusive relationship between Joker and Harley (and yes, some posters accused me of supporting it because I found the differences between comic and movie to be compelling). There is a big difference between a complex character in a complicated world and advocacy of a way of life. I've found nihilistic films like A Clockwork Orange and Taxi Driver to be less morally despicable than something "uplifting" like Seven Pounds, where suicide for organ donation was treated as heroic if bittersweet.

Edited by KJMackley on Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:25:31 AM

Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#232: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:25:16 AM

Sadly, the idea that "trying to understand = justifying" is very common. Like some people trying to analyze the root of, say, terrorism, are often accused of implicitly supporting it.

TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#233: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:27:12 AM

[up][up][up]I agree, that is frustrating. But again, I'm not accusing the movie of being made to glorify anything. I'm saying it's been an unintended consequence of the marketing thus far that it looks like that's what it's doing, and that that is what is worrying me, that it'll make it easier for people to use the movie as justification for their behaviour, by no intention of it's own. That it's message might come across as the opposite of what it's trying to say.

In short, I'm just pointing out a concern about a movie's promotional buildup. I'm not accusing the movie of doing anything at all.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Sep 2nd 2019 at 9:30:02 AM

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#234: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:29:14 AM

I found that review patently ridiculous because the reviewer was so adamant about bringing in external factors into the film, independent of its own message. Topped with the guy not seeming to like comic book movies in general, and of course he wasn’t going to like it. And hey, that’s his critique, but it dismissed the movie’s qualities in favor of things outside of its control. Same as if people hated The King of Comedy not because of any intrinsic value or lack thereof, but the fear it would inspire a Loony Fan in the vein of Rupert.

Edited by Beatman1 on Sep 2nd 2019 at 8:29:25 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#235: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:43:06 AM

[up]x2 Oh no, I was not accusing you of going that, honest. If anything I think you're the most sensible here.

It's just that I get where slim is coming from, is all.

Again, sorry if I came across as agressive, wasn't my intention.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#236: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:46:30 AM

I guess after thinking my apparent aggression is cause this whole deal is reminding me of the whole “Did Infinity War agre with Thanos?” debate.

And like God did that get so horribly annoying seeing the constant arguments just cause the movie didn’t make it extra super duper clear that Thanos was definitely with unequivocal proof that he is in fact a genocidal monster.

I really don’t wanna that nonsense replicated anywhere.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:51:08 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
TheLovecraftian Since: Jul, 2017
#237: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:47:40 AM

[up][up]Oh, ok. I'm sorry I got annoyed there.

[up]Yeah, I get you. Thanos was incredibly well written in Infinity War, but that didn't stop people from acting like he was right. If anything, it seemed to increase the number of people that thought he was.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Sep 2nd 2019 at 9:49:17 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#238: Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:50:47 AM

[up]x2 Worse is that some people still didn't get the memo despite Endgame spending a considerable chunk of its first arc showing just how horrible the Snap made the whole universe be.

Unless you're an whale, of course. Or the Hulk.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#239: Sep 2nd 2019 at 7:36:02 AM

The trailers have avoided showing exactly how and why the main protagonist goes from "sympathetic sadsack loser" to become the actual Joker, who by all accounts really is still a villain. Whether to avoid spoiling some sort of twist or perhaps a ratings issue or they just wanted to its focused on the character at his more sympathetic - the film will not necessarily follow suit.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
JoLuRo075 Since: Jan, 2019
#240: Sep 2nd 2019 at 8:31:37 AM

[up]*9 To be fair, in Seven Pounds, the protagonist was already suicidal, the fact that his new girlfriend needed a new heart was just the excuse he needed to do it.

I can't help thinking that the protagonist's actions was just an excuse to commit suicide instead of a real sacrifice.

—-

Returning to the main theme, there is always a minority that often misunderstands the message that the movie or series tries to give.

One of the most infamous examples is Natural Born Killer that motivated several real killers, even when the movie was a criticism of that.

For example, if someone decided to make a movie with a real murderer who had a very hard life (Example: Mary Bell), many people would consider the murderer to be just a victim.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Sep 2nd 2019 at 8:52:47 AM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#241: Sep 2nd 2019 at 10:19:31 AM

I don’t think it’s inevitable people will idolize any villain just because that’s how life is. There’s plenty of examples of movie antagonists or commentary on extreme ideologies that did not gain misaimed fandoms because they were constructed not to. The Producers was brought up as a prior example. Another is the Armitages in Get Out; nobody wants to be them, and they manage to be uncomfortable while not sacrificing their threat. It can certainly be done with turning the bad guy into an accidental power fantasy or being Anvilicious.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#242: Sep 2nd 2019 at 10:33:15 AM

Draghinazzo also recurringly brought up the examples of GDT's fascist villains in Pan's Labyrinth and The Shape of Water, where no one really wants to be them.

I think there's more of an overreaction to people pointing out that Do Not Do This Cool Thing is a concept than the other way around.

Here's the Time review btw.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#243: Sep 2nd 2019 at 10:57:38 AM

So back to the previous review: this version of Joker has a Pseudobulbar affect, meaning he laughs by accident a lot. I think that's a neat touch.

The legend has returned.
HBomb from A little to the left. No, my left. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#244: Sep 2nd 2019 at 11:12:16 AM

It’s much more unnerving than most evil laughs, for sure.

From the cherry, to the apple, to the peach, to the plum
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#245: Sep 2nd 2019 at 11:58:17 AM

One of the reasons villains who aren't completely black or white tend to get this problem is that people have a tendency to mistake sympathetic for "right-all-along" (and also to conflate "likeable" with "sympathetic"), and so either adopt a character's ideology or assume the audience is intended to adopt a charcter's ideology no matter how hard the piece of media

"I like or relate to this character, and characters I relate to can't be in the wrong because that would make me bad for liking them, ergo everyone else must be the problem" tends to be a leading rationale behind leather pantsing.

Do Not Do This Cool Thing is another, however.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 2nd 2019 at 11:58:44 AM

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#246: Sep 2nd 2019 at 12:06:22 PM

@Tucker: I wouldn't say Get Out counts as an exemple because the Armitages are pretty in your face.

Which isn't really a problem, at no point Get Out even pretends to be a nuanced and thoughtful discussion about racism in society (which is not to say the movie is unintelligent, mind), it's not really the movie's goal.

On the flip side, there are plenty out there that side with the Pizza shop owner in Do the Right Thing, which does aim to be a thoughtful and nuanced etc etc.

I haven't seen The Producers, but considering it is a comedy, not a drama, I'm not altogether sure it is a valid exemple, either. Granted, if nothing else, Al Bundy proved making fun of X is no guarantee that X won't be seen as appealing, so shrug.

Edited by HailMuffins on Sep 2nd 2019 at 4:10:29 PM

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#247: Sep 2nd 2019 at 12:07:20 PM

@tuckerscreator I've heard a segment of the fandom refused to see Rose Armitage as being just as evil as the rest of her family despite both Jordan Peele and Allisob Williams going out of their way to state that she is.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#248: Sep 2nd 2019 at 12:20:04 PM

Yeah, there are some who argue her and some of the family may be hypnotized too (which the film never suggests, and nothing happens with them around camera flashes), but it feels distinct enough from "I want to be this character". Nobody's defending her actions or the scheme as having good reason.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Sep 2nd 2019 at 12:22:12 PM

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#249: Sep 2nd 2019 at 4:07:03 PM

"My whole life I didn't know if I even really existed... but I do. And people... are starting... to notice."

That line is so chilling I can't help but rewatch it.

There is something tickling about an average man who appears down on his luck, going to therapy, cracking under the misery that seems to dominate his life - and said man suddenly activating then actualizing his negative emotions into an alter ego that kicks off some kind of political movement.

Anyone feeling socially disconnected would probably feel some validation from Joaquin-Joker even if his face isn't yours. That line I quoted - that's where you feel bad for the Joker, for anyone really. That element of the character has become popularized.

It's just... when he starts blowing sh-t up you got to step back and go "it's a movie. There's a cut-off between how much I sympathize for Fleck and how much I disagree with the Joker."

Edited by Soble on Sep 2nd 2019 at 4:24:58 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#250: Sep 2nd 2019 at 6:32:35 PM

Gaon:I havent see shape of the water but in pan labyrinth is pretty easy to root for Ophelia because she is a child, those making easy to see the guy as villian.

"Nobody's defending her actions or the scheme as having good reason."

I will said is a variation of it, "Those people are a satire of people who looks like me, ergo im not like them ergo they are not evil" kinda how political pundits call a movie propaganda for making fun of them.

And the producer is a satire and is easy to see.

Now with Thannos is something that worry me because....well let face it, is motivation is dumb, is preeeeeetty honest-to-death, dumb. But I feel people taking seriously because Thanos DOES take it seriously, he never turn in the typical caricaturize villany you expect on a comic villian and always speak in a very calm, soft voice about is belief....which it make valid motivation somehow.

It feel like the "Polite nazi", you know, that if you hide your unpleasenest long enough your view are aceptable, not matter how batshit insane it is.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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