I will say that I emphatically do not want Kylo Ren to be redeemed. For one thing, he's a metaphorical Neo-Nazi, and for another, redeeming him would spit in the face of everything The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi built with him. He'd go from being a unique character with a unique arc who's aware that he's a poor man's Vader to... actually being a poor man's Vader.
Somehow I don't think we have to worry about JJ redeeming the character he allegedly compared to a rapist (in regards to the force interrogation in VII).
PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/TheyDidn't one of the recent novels mention that there's something really, really bad in the Unknown Regions that Thrawn felt the Empire was the Lesser of Two Evils next to? That sounds True Final Boss-worthy.
Edited by HamburgerTime on Jul 30th 2018 at 10:41:39 AM
The old Legends books implied Thrawn was trying to protect people from the the Yuuzhan Vong. But something tells me they don't want to reintroduce the Vong into canon.
Edited by Beatman1 on Jul 30th 2018 at 11:45:07 AM
Actually TCW was going to have an episode featuring the Vong. Then it got cancelled. Then it just got another 12 episode season, so we'll see what stories Filoni prioritizes for that.
PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/TheyI recall finding it interesting that JJ, during the filming of the Starkiller firing, included a closeup of Kylo watching it. One of the reasons why Darth Vader came off as redeemable was because it was never emphasized that he was present and compliant with Alderaan's destruction. Abrams made sure to emphasize that Kylo was absolutely a witness to a multiple genocide and cool with it. So yeah, I don't expect he's getting redeemed.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on Jul 30th 2018 at 9:12:05 AM
They have the same take, but Rian just gives it again. One of the weaknesses in TLJ's writing for both Kylo and Rey is that they both have almost exactly the same arcs as in TFA, just more strongly emphasized. Though at least Kylo gets to ascend to Big Bad at the end of this one.
I've always wondered if that was an overreaction to the fan responses to the character or something. Like how Return of the Jedi makes sure to include a bit where Yoda states outright that Vader is Anakin in response to the belief that Vader was lying, except rather than simply take care of those misconceptions in a single scene or two, they were dwelled on for the entire movie and so character-wise they moved forward less than they really should've.
Apparently Lucas consulted a child psychologist who told him that kids might not believe that Vader was telling the truth, so he had both of the good guys who knew pre-Vader Anakin personally both confirm it.
Perhaps a bit on the nose, but understandable nonetheless imo. Plus I can buy Luke wanting confirmation of it to.
And the problem with Kylo as the big bad is, well he lacks credibility. Through two movies he's been unable to score a clear victory over Rey, and it's been established that she progresses at a far more rapid rate than he does as well.
So either JJ has to do A LOT of legwork to try and sell him as a real threat this late in the game, or some other "big bad" should emerge to supplant him (Keri Russell's character perhaps), which risks coming off as a bit "too little too late."
Regarding the Unknown Regions, the new Thrawn comics have some answers regarding what's in there (here's a Youtube channel
with episodes on it). Thrawn's motivation in general seems to be the same, but no hints of Vong. He merely states that Empire is the lesser evil compared to other things out there.
Also the novels state directly that there's something in the Regions that calls out to Sidious, and the TLJ novelisation apparently implies (only watched a video on it) that Snoke thinks it might be lost star systems which house the mysteries of the Force.
Basically, the place is one giant playground of mystery.
Edited by TerminusEst on Jul 31st 2018 at 12:29:36 PM
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Agreed, Vader ‘beats’ Obi-wan and just absolutely destroys Luke however Luke grows and learns something. AND they drove home that there is a bigger threat than Vader from the very first scenes of ANH.
Rey and Ren however, no. Rey walks away for Ren to become the boss. Ren didn’t even match Luke in any way as well. It’s just an empty conflict. It’s both Rey comes off as too strong to be the Hero in The Hero's Journey and Ren comes off as too weak to be The Heavy.
But honestly the bigger issue is literally the rest of the movie. Poe and Holdo, The trainwrecking of Luke, Canto Blight, The heavy handed Anvilicius messages that the movie literally contradicts mere minutes later etc.
Edited by Memers on Jul 31st 2018 at 3:24:55 AM
Is the issue with is chararter: they want to drive home the fact he is a stupid kid to drag in is own nature to come as pathetic but at the same tme to be threating to other...which eventually means you need to give him feat that make him cool.
And both kinda fight against each other.
But yeah, Kylo mroe than a neo nazis remind of the alt right in the same he run and turn aay from is own feelings, beliving the dark side will make him stronger, in is own mind, rey offering a way out to the light is kinda like Vader offer luke to rule with him....
Which it make me ask: if there any alternate story were Luke does rule with vader?.
"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"I don't think so. Angry whiny fash-curious pissboys like Kylo can be extremely dangerous in real life. The fact that he's basically a brat with no discipline whose angst is being weaponized by much stronger and smarter people makes him, in a way, scarier than Vader.
And actually, I don't see anything in the movies that suggests he may seriously be redeemed. I mean, the whole bit about him killing Snoke in order to usurp him is a dark reflection of Vader killing Palpatine to save Luke. The act of killing his master doesn't redeem him—it makes him irredeemable. I only worry Abrams may actually try to redeem him because a significant portion of the fandom really seems to want it for some reason.
EDIT:
That last question sounds like the seed of a fascinating what-if story.
Edited by ThriceCharming on Jul 31st 2018 at 4:50:39 AM
I'd be okay with a Kylo redemption if it's made clear Snoke had his claws in him from early childhood. He'd be more victim than villain in that case IMO. Just like I wouldn't be able to fully blame, say, a cultist who'd been indoctrinated from birth or a hate group member who only joined because they thought it would be the only way to make friends, for their actions.
Yeah, no. You don't praticipate in a galactic holocaust and expect to be 'redeemed' in any way except for death is the easy way out.
I actually want Hux to be the one to kill Kylo Ren in a The Dog Bites Back moment as everything's burning down around them. Sort of like Grima Wormtongue ganking Saruman in The Lord Of The Rings.
And then Hux dies too because f*ck that guy. He's a super Nazi.
I just can't think of any end more fitting for these two characters and their belligerent antagonism and teeth-gritting cooperation than for them to go out together, stabbing each other in the face as the credits roll.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 31st 2018 at 6:09:21 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Perhaps a bit on the nose, but understandable nonetheless imo. Plus I can buy Luke wanting confirmation of it to.
Heck, even James Earl Jones himself has said that his initial reaction to getting the iconic line was to assume his own character was lying. Evidently he got enough similar feedback from people in production and test audiences that Lucas started to worry about it.
I feel like that's intentional. Kylo is incompetent. He's a fool. He's nowhere near as powerful or intimidating as he thinks he is. And by the end of TLJ, he's already causing a rift within his own organization's leadership. By all appearances, he's going to run the First Order into the ground.
But that doesn't mean he's not dangerous. Or that him having that position isn't a great position for him to be in story wise: it's an interesting turn for the character, the potential for The Caligula and Enemy Civil War tropes could give the First Order the distinctive flavor from the Empire it's sorely needed, and if everything ends with the First Order burning itself to the ground, but being at risk of burning everyone else down with it, fits the themes of the trilogy so far: that the specific people our heroes are fighting this time are less important than the cyclical fight of light and dark in general, and the damage it does to the galaxy around it.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 31st 2018 at 6:51:10 AM
For me it's because Kylo did something that Vader never did, he intentionally killed one of the beloved hero's who was also a close family members. He flat-out murdered Han when the latter was doing nothing but trying to help him, he tried to flat-out kill Luke and only failed because Luke wasn't physically there (which he didn't know at the time), and he arguably was indirectly responsible for Luke's death regardless, he was perfectly willing to order the slaughter of the entire Resistance, including his own mother, on Crait.
Vader by contrast, killed Obi Wan in a duel, and when given the couldn't bring himself to kill his son, whereas Kylo DID kill his father. Even killing Padme, while horrible, was done in a spur of the moment fit of anger and he regretted it immediately afterwards.
Also it's interesting a lot of Vader's most evil actions happen offscreen, whereas it's not as severe in the OT, whereas we SEE Kylo doing far more horrific stuff onscreen in the OT. And on top of that, for many people, Anakin's backstory is both more tragic and explains his ultimate fall better than Kylo's, so it's easier to understand why things went wrong with him than with Kylo.
Also the OT doesn't bludgeon you over the head with how "conflicted" and "sympathetic" you're supposed to find Vader, whereas the ST (especially TLJ) does do that with Kylo, and for many people (myself included), it's both annoying and we just don't sympathize with him.
Honestly Hux is more sympathetic (or at least understandable) than Kylo imo because what we know of his past paints it as far more tragic than Ben/Kylo's was. And you can see why Hux ended up the way that he did.
In regards to The FO/Kylo, oh I have no doubt that their characterization is intentional. The problem is that just because you can explain something, doesn't make it automatically a GOOD idea. I'm sorry, but I just don't find him or the FO to be either interesting or threatening. Telling me that them being whiny screaming idiot manchildren is intentional means nothing because it's still not interesting to me. Through two movies, he's utterly failed to defeat Rey, and yet I'm supposed to by him as the big bad? No, just no. Hux COULD have worked if he were like his TFA characterization, where he was fanatical but also competent and pragmatic. But TLJ turned him into such a joke that it doesn't work with him anymore either.
Vader felt like a real threat, Sheev felt like a real threat, Tarkin felt like a real threat, Dooku felt like a real threat, heck even Jabba felt like a real threat. None of the ST villains do, except for Snoke but he's dead now.
So you have a bunch of whiny idiot manchildren, who somehow manage to inflict a crushing defeat on the hero's regardless, which makes the hero's look extra incompetent themselves.
Sorry, it doesn't work for me.
Edited by Punisher286 on Jul 31st 2018 at 6:54:23 AM

Mark Hamill posted a very heartwarming (and heartbreaking tweet) about making the movie without Carrie Fisher
https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/1023604176725504000?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1023604176725504000&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.themarysue.com%2Fmark-hamill-tweet-carrie-fisher-sob%2F