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Batwoman Series set in the Arrowverse

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DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#151: May 19th 2019 at 10:18:45 PM

[up]Yes,But that was more because of the Supergirl trailers similarities with the Black Widow SNL skit.

Edited by DeanCole on May 19th 2019 at 10:20:35 AM

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#152: May 19th 2019 at 10:49:27 PM

[up]x2 Yeah pretty much, and for the same reason of unsubtle feminist undertones.

Yeah some anvils needed to be drop and all, but with such awkward dialogue like “It will be once it fits a woman” and “I’m not going to let a man takes a woman’s work” I really don’t want to get hit in the head.

So yeah the problem here was the trailers editing choosing the worst lines to sell a product. I mean Batwoman is already cool for being a military trained combat practitioner who was taught said skills by her dad as means to avert becoming a victim again after an incident, if they sold more of that story in the trailer rather then the fact she’s a female lesbian hero (which, c’mon, White Canary exist) then the internet wouldn’t went apeshit over it. Not saying that they won’t bitch about it anyway, just not to the levels where they feel justified.

Other than that, I honestly still feel neutral about the show.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#153: May 19th 2019 at 10:52:01 PM

(which, c’mon, White Canary exist)
  1. White Canary is bisexual, not a lesbian.
  2. Even if she was, just because there's one lesbian action hero doesn't mean there can't be more. It's not a zero sum game.

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#154: May 19th 2019 at 10:57:02 PM

[up] Whoops. Forgot that she dated Oliver. Even so my point wasn’t that there should be like one lesbian hero per universe, but rather questioning the shows marketing to focus on that when its not really something new in the CW verse.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#155: May 19th 2019 at 11:18:15 PM

It's not new to the CW-verse, but it's still relatively new to TV shows to have a LGBT main character where the show isn't centered around them being LGBT (see: Will and Grace, The L Word, etc). Yes, there's been plenty of LGBT side characters, but rarely main ones. And when there is, watch how the creators never show it (see: Constantine, where the creators decided that John wasn't going to have any bisexual relationships, something that, thankfully, Legends of Tomorrow changed).

NotSoBadassLongcoat The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24 from People's Democratic Republic of Badassia (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Puppy love
The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24
#156: May 20th 2019 at 12:56:57 PM

Yeah some anvils needed to be drop and all, but with such awkward dialogue like “It will be once it fits a woman” and “I’m not going to let a man takes a woman’s work” I really don’t want to get hit in the head.

So yeah the problem here was the trailers editing choosing the worst lines to sell a product.

Exactly. The problem is, it's crude. I've had it up to here with primitive rah-rah right-wing bullshit for idiot proles, so please, don't kill my faith in the mental capabilities of progressives by beating me over and over with a wholly unnecessary anvil!

"what the complete, unabridged, 4k ultra HD fuck with bonus features" - Mark Von Lewis
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#157: May 20th 2019 at 1:07:28 PM

wholly unnecessary anvil
I think that's the issue here: it's not "wholly unnecessary" to a lot of people.

Gort Since: Sep, 2010
#158: May 21st 2019 at 7:27:34 AM

Honestly, I like the idea of the character from the perspective of a non-comic reader, but that trailer was direly heavy handed. The attachment to the kidnap victim was fine, that’s a show, don’t tell approach, but there was so so much telling in the rest of it.

After watching that trailer I felt patronised.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#159: May 21st 2019 at 9:16:27 PM

I'm expecting, at worst, a Supergirl (2015) situation. The first episode might be a bit heavy-handed, but they'll settle down for the rest of the series. But I don't think it will be even that bad. Like I said, Supergirl moved past it quickly, and they share writers, right?

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#160: May 22nd 2019 at 8:20:29 AM

Given a quick google search, they don't appear to share writers. As to a Supergirl situation, while Supergirl did start off being heavyhanded about Kara being a woman, it didn't so much drop the heavy-handedness so much as switch lanes and stomp the gas pedal with all its might.

Beatman1 Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Gone fishin'
#161: May 22nd 2019 at 8:32:51 AM

[up]And it got booted from CBS. Remember?

I stopped watching the show admittedly midway through Season 2. But they were not subtle about the minority thing (which is funny because Kara’s sister coming out of the closet was surprisingly nuanced in contrast).

Edited by Beatman1 on May 22nd 2019 at 11:35:03 AM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#162: May 22nd 2019 at 8:37:17 AM

Season 4 of Supergirl has been its best season and it's pushing down hard on the racism and immigrant metaphor.

NotSoBadassLongcoat The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24 from People's Democratic Republic of Badassia (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Puppy love
The Showrunner of Dzwiedz 24
#163: May 22nd 2019 at 4:09:56 PM

it's not "wholly unnecessary" to a lot of people
Thank you for reminding me why I'm working really hard on becoming an alcoholic. Maybe when I kill enough of my brain cells, I'll stop realizing that what hit me was an anvil.

Seriously though. The thing is, if you really want to make a progressive narrative that doesn't make people cringe, present it as Just A Thing That Happens. For example, the hero goes to save the damsel in distress, it's just that the hero is a woman. A shocked mook asks "Who are you?", and the answer is a distinctly female "Not Batman." followed by a punch. And so on, and so forth. Smart people will get it.

And the stupid people? They'll have to catch up. The show isn't on Fox, after all.

"what the complete, unabridged, 4k ultra HD fuck with bonus features" - Mark Von Lewis
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#165: May 24th 2019 at 5:10:56 PM

That would be a hell of a cameo, but I doubt we'll be getting into the Waynes with this show.

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#166: May 25th 2019 at 12:45:32 PM

Sigh, that trailer went from normal to cringe so fast...

I legit wouldn't have minded it, probably even given the show a chance, if it didn't feel the need to put down Batman and everything there to elevate themselves. That's really my issue with these types of things. It feels like they aren't interested in coexisting so much as aggressively getting in your face about it to prove some point I was fine with in the first place.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
caivu Since: Sep, 2014
#167: May 25th 2019 at 9:13:06 PM

[up] How is it putting down Batman? The show itself certainly isn't, from what's been shown.

My stories on AO3.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#168: May 25th 2019 at 9:45:43 PM

Yeah, I didn't see any of it "putting down" Batman.

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#169: May 26th 2019 at 8:17:48 PM

"The suit is literal perfection."

"It will be... when it fits a woman."

So Batman's stuff wasn't good enough because it wasn't built for a woman? That really isn't showing respect to the character that started this. And the whole vibe of "I can do this better because I'm a woman." It's the superiority attitude that doesn't jibe with me, especially when I've seen enough things take this attitude as well and celebrate it as opposed to challenging why it would turn people away.

"I'm not about to let a man take credit for a woman's work."

This implies that Batman is doing that, which... well, yeah, is far from the case. She literally took his stuff, after all.

Pretty much it just comes off as needlessly antagonistic/superior to what Bruce started. And it comes off as doing it because he's male, given how much attention is drawn to the gender. That's my problem with how it's presented. Otherwise, I would've been neutral to curious as I think they can do some interesting things with the character and I'm all for focusing on others outside of Bruce Wayne.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#170: May 26th 2019 at 8:27:09 PM

So Batman's stuff wasn't good enough because it wasn't built for a woman?
No, it's implying the suit isn't good enough because it won't fit her. You are literally taking things out of context.

This implies that Batman is doing that, which... well, yeah, is far from the case. She literally took his stuff, after all.
No, the people who see her (and the news presumably) are reporting that it's Batman returned, when it isn't. And she doesn't want Batman to get the credit when it's her going out there and fighting crime. Again: you are taking things out of context.

And the whole vibe of "I can do this better because I'm a woman."
I don't know where you got that vibe, but there is nothing in the trailer that says that. Kate finds the Batcave and the Batsuit and says it will be perfection when it fits a woman, again, because she wants to wear it. She doesn't want people giving Batman taking credit for what she is doing, because she's the one going out there and doing it, not Batman. All of which is perfectly reasonable.

Edited by alliterator on May 26th 2019 at 8:29:22 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#171: May 26th 2019 at 8:31:07 PM

I am rather worried that when Batman himself appears he will be portrayed as very antagonistic.

Like Bats is a douche but he’s not a sexist douche.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#172: May 26th 2019 at 8:33:22 PM

I doubt he will show up soon or be sexist. As you said, that's not really part of his portrayal and the CW doesn't often stray from the traditional portrayal of DC heroes. (Well, aside from turning Green Arrow into Batman-lite.)

Edited by alliterator on May 26th 2019 at 8:33:46 AM

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#173: May 26th 2019 at 8:48:42 PM

There is certainly some arrogance in that dialogue about the suit, in that she's not simply talking about replacing Batman, but being better than Batman, saying the suit won't be truly perfect until it fits her. When you're a Legacy Character for a very beloved hero, that attitude is naturally gonna rub fans the wrong way.

As for the stuff about credit, we'll need to see how that plays out in the actual episode. Kate wanting people to recognize her as a separate individual from Batman, and not give him credit for all the stuff she does? Fair enough. However, trying to connect it to the history of men taking credit for women's accomplishments? That doesn't work if the situation is as the trailer suggests, that people attribute her accomplishments to Batman because she's dressed up as Batman, so everyone draws the very reasonable conclusion that they're the same person.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#174: May 26th 2019 at 8:54:09 PM

[up] Again, I'm not seeing where she says that she's better than Batman. I see where she says that the suit would be perfect when it fits her — because, again, she wants to wear the suit and go out and fight crime. Not because she believes she's better than Batman.

Although, hey, she might. The Batman in this universe did abandon Gotham City. That's a pretty shitty thing to do.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#175: May 26th 2019 at 9:19:11 PM

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Is she saying that the suit is imperfect now because it's designed to fit someone who's no longer around to wear it? Or is she saying that it was always imperfect because it was designed to fit Bruce, and that only a suit designed to fit her could ever be perfection?


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