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Ant-Man and the Wasp Spoiler Thread

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diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#851: Mar 5th 2023 at 1:42:14 PM

Would you accept an episode in a season of What If?[lol]

MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#852: Mar 5th 2023 at 2:02:32 PM

[up] ...YES.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#853: Mar 5th 2023 at 2:47:15 PM

I think that's probably underselling MODOK's redemption. It was sincere, just comically hamfisted. In theory, if he actually survived, he'd be a good guy.

In fairness, he might be an incompetent or annoying good guy, but not a bad guy.

Like, at worst, I'd probably depict him as causing harm unintentionally without realizing he's doing it. Not even apathy, just complete cluelessness.

Like, he might go in to rescue somebody or fight a bad guy and cause massive amounts of property damage through overly-destructive tactics. Then, standing in the pile of a rubble, pats himself on the back for a job well done not even noticing all the destruction nearby.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Mar 5th 2023 at 2:51:06 AM

Leviticus 19:34
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#854: Mar 5th 2023 at 2:53:19 PM

The example reminds me of Axis Carnage trying to be a good guy

So he burned down a bank to prevent a bank robbery

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#855: Mar 5th 2023 at 3:01:34 PM

Axis Carnage and Hobgoblin were the best parts of Axis.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#856: Mar 5th 2023 at 3:02:54 PM

Hobgoblin is a business genius

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#857: Mar 5th 2023 at 3:21:23 PM

He fits in well with that support side of supervillainy, the guys smart enough to realize that enabling others to get punched by heroes is better than getting punched by heroes themselves

Like the Tinkerer providing tech for villains, how Taskmaster used to run mook training schools before he lost his way and became mostly an elite jobber, and recently Hobgoblin selling villain identities to people who want to get punched by superheroes but don’t have the imagination to come up with their own thing

Edited by Bocaj on Mar 5th 2023 at 6:21:38 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#858: Mar 5th 2023 at 3:26:39 PM

It's sort of an evolution of how he used multiple fall guys as the Hobgoblin.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
MatthewWayne The Tapestry Weaver from Camp Echo One Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Tapestry Weaver
#859: Mar 5th 2023 at 5:55:08 PM

I just realized something.

Loki is primarily associated with the color green, and is an egotistical warmonger who wants to take what he believes is rightfully his.

Thanos is primarily associated with the color purple, and tries to put up a Well-Intentioned Extremist front to hide his own selfish goals born out of resentment for something that happened to them in his past.

Kang wears green and purple, and is an egotistical conqueror who wants revenge on those who banished him to a place beyond time, while also trying to destroy and/or conquer any timeline that he comes across.

In other words, Kang represents the worst parts of both the MCU's previous Big Bads that fans loved when they were first introduced.

"I'm Mr. Blue, woah-woah-ooh..."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#860: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:22:06 PM

@Tobias

Scott is the main character of this movie. And Scott and Darren have nothing to do with one another whatsoever. They have no dynamic. They don't even meet each other until the final act.

The final confrontation between them takes place in Cassie's bedroom, where Cross is malevolently waiting for Scott to come fight him. And it means nothing. Darren is only here because threatening the hero's loved ones is what the villain does. This is just a punch up between two guys in Ant Man suits who just met five minutes ago and have no connection with each other beyond being the hero and villain of the film.

There is one thing they have in common. They're both people Hank Pym saw as himself. Cross even says that the reason he figured out Scott was Hank's agent was because he knew Hank couldn't help but sympathize with Scott's own desire to buck authority to do good.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#861: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:27:35 PM

Yeah, but the movie's wishy-washy on that depending on who it's talking about.

When Darren is in focus, Scott is Hank's True Prodigy. The one man in all the world he could truly believe in, could share his secrets with, could connect with the way he never could with Darren.

When Hope is in focus, Scott's some useless dipshit that Hank pulled out of the gutter. Hope should rightfully be the Ant-Man, but Hank went with Scott because he's expendable. Hank couldn't bear to lose Hope, but he wouldn't lose a night's sleep over getting Scott killed.

The movie goes back and forth between these two versions of Scott and Hank's relationship, depending on whether it's trying to justify Hope's marginalization or artificially inflate Scott and Darren's lack of connection with each other.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 5th 2023 at 7:28:24 AM

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RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#862: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:32:18 PM

I’d argue by this movie, Hank has fully grown to respect Scott.

Even read every single part of Scott’s book.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#863: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:38:17 PM

Though its fairly amusing that the film shows Scott hasn't really followed Hank's path as a scientist nor does he have anything to do with Hope's company.

He just does his own thing completely separate of them.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Blueace Surrounded by weirdoes from The End Of the World Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Surrounded by weirdoes
#864: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:43:40 PM

Given his past, even if he trusts the Pyms, he likely would like to avoid big companies.

Wake me up at your own risk.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#865: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:44:49 PM

Scott's pretty much defined by having nothing to do with anything but nonetheless getting dragged into the plot for one reason or another. It's not even like Spider-Man, where Petey can't help but involve himself in everyone's business and so constantly throws himself into things that have nothing to do with him. More often than not, Scott gets dragged into the plot against his will.

I think the Avengers stuff (Civil War and Endgame) are the only times Scott's proactively gone, "Yes, I am going to get involved with this because this seems like a valuable use of my time."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 5th 2023 at 7:45:54 AM

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RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#866: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:45:27 PM

[up][up][up] The only thing they have connecting them is that Scott is dating his daughter.

Beyond that, they don’t have much in common.

Edit: Well okay, there’s Hank helping Cassie with the quantum realm.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 5th 2023 at 11:47:13 PM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#867: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:46:45 PM

Continuing from above, basically, Scott has way more respect for Captain America than he does Hank Pym.

He's not wrong.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 5th 2023 at 7:47:02 AM

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#868: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:51:05 PM

Ever since I found out Ghost in the comics is an anti-corporate saboteur, I feel like there's a waiting joke of someone telling Hank point blank to his face that he's no different from the Starks who he detests

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#869: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:59:50 PM

I just got back from watching this and I generally agree that the Ant-Fam feel like the wrong protagonists for this. They felt like they were in Strange World; Kang felt like he was in The Rise of Skywalker.

Also I am quite ready to move on from the “I think I just broke the multiverse” plot beat.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#870: Mar 5th 2023 at 8:01:00 PM

Immortus: I am all the Kangs!!!

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
M1gamiTensei The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps from Punished “Brainwashed” M1gami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps
#871: Mar 5th 2023 at 8:22:15 PM

Tito Kangman: I am Kang! I am the leader of all of these idiots! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Again, weird that MODOK’s entire existence was for someone to tell Kang who the Pyms are when Kang must have fought Antman beforehand and could have been a deeper way for Kang to manipulate Janet to helping him because he knows the Wasp. Yeah But for Me, It Was Tuesday was a cool moment but we could showcase Kang as a giant danger if we saw him know every potential Avenger with all their weaknesses.

I had a cool subversion of MODOK’s role in the story that popped in my head. What if instead of being Kang’s attack dog, he’s instead a member of the resistance against Kang but still acts like a dick and doesnt care for collateral? He’ll try to kill Scott and Cassie when they first meetup, though hesitantly unite to take on Kang. Thatll make his sacrifice to save them a lot more dramatic.

Edited by M1gamiTensei on Mar 5th 2023 at 8:24:21 AM

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RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#872: Mar 5th 2023 at 9:59:36 PM

But then again, depending on how different Kang's timeline is from the MCU timeline the Avengers Kang fought might not have included Antman or Wasp.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
M1gamiTensei The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps from Punished “Brainwashed” M1gami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps
#873: Mar 5th 2023 at 10:10:53 PM

That’s a massive misfire of a writing choice to be honest. If the story presented Kang knowing Thor in different universes, but does not know who is Antman, who is a founding Avenger across media and is typically Hank Pym, that sounds ridiculous to even a casual audience, doesnt it? I presented the idea of Kang not knowing who Scott Lang but knowing the Antman identity, which sounds more plausible to swallow and gives Scott an actual chance to beat Kang since he knows little of his weaknesses as a person.

No wonder the screenplay said Kang cant remember which Avenger is which anymore because trying consistent with how much he knows is going to be a lot of effort between movies, even by the same writer. Not defending this instance since this movie should have been in the oven for way longer. Writing is at its most flexible when its establishing something and I believe that the movie could have been more concrete with what Kang knows.

Edited by M1gamiTensei on Mar 5th 2023 at 10:17:06 AM

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RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#874: Mar 5th 2023 at 10:17:17 PM

But Hank isn't a founding member of the Avengers in the main timeline though.

Kang even seems a bit confused about Ant-Man claiming to be an Avenger.

Then again, maybe future movies will establish exiled Kang as knowing who Hank Pym is.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Mar 6th 2023 at 2:19:18 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
M1gamiTensei The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps from Punished “Brainwashed” M1gami Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The Scrappy of the Trope Pantheon, God of Thumps
#875: Mar 5th 2023 at 10:39:24 PM

Then if theyd establish that he knew who Hank Pym, then thatd render being informed who the Pyms are by MODOK pointless on a narrative level because that would mean that there is little point for MODOK to be the one to tell Kang who the Pyms and that they have the capabilities of letting him out because he would already know this. Janet would tell him he’s in the Quatum realm and who she is, then it would be relatively easy for him to piece the idea that, “Oh, Hank Pym is looking for his wife who is trapped here (as far as Kang knows), so I will make a device that traps someone trying to interact with this place.”

I know this movie is not as bad as Love and Thunder but I have never dissected this hard since Rise of Skywalker. My media literacy bones is in shaking over the narrative choices made since there is a lot of potential, and I cannot help but try to present ideas that make the narrative more cohesive.

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