TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#79826: Aug 14th 2022 at 4:18:49 PM

Oh no problem. I’ll just amend the version on the pending list smile

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#79827: Aug 14th 2022 at 4:45:06 PM

AHEM!

The one who is named Tyk shall now discuss--

Ah damn, wait, hold up. Wrong version.

WHAT IS UP, MAD DOGS?! WHO'S READY TO SMASH SOME SKULLS?!

...Too much? Okay, sorry, back to Deadpan Snarker Tyk.

Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is yet another incarnation of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Only this time around, they took the Denser and Wackier / Lighter and Softer route, with each episode being split into two segments. You know the story: four mutated turtles, Michelangelo, Leonardo, Donatello, and Raphael are all led by Master Splinter, a former human mutated into a rat who trains the turtles to fight crime. ...Kind of. Due to the nature of the show, it definitely plays more into the comical route and having a plethora of jokes, even amongst the cast of villains.

However, there are a couple potential villains me and Miraculous are gonna gab about, starting off with this one particular fish mutant.

Who Is She?

Piebald is the Villain of the Week for the episode "Flushed, But Not Forgotten."

What Has She Done?

A flashback reveals that the eponymous turtles were playing a game in the sewer with Piebald, where they accidentally broke her fishbowl. In order to save her, they put Piebald in the toilet. Predictably, the toilet is flushed unintentionally by the turtles and the fish is seemingly lost forever. While lost in the sewer, Piebald swallowed an Oozesquitoe (a bug that mutates anyone who is bitten by it), and she evolved into an anthro mutant.

Desiring revenge à la I Know What You Did Last Summer, Piebald torments the turtles, painting the image "YOU FLUSH ME, I FLUSH YOU" in Mikey's room before erasing the image, and later appearing in Mikey's video game à la The Ring girl. Eventually she appears in front of all the turtles, determined to "flush" them. Mikey tries to confess, but his brothers decide the best solution is to get rid of her before Master Splinter finds out. This goes...horribly wrong immediately. Piebald uses her hook hand to stealthily kidnap Raph and Donnie, targeting Mikey and Leo and getting a kick out of scaring them. After taking Mikey and Master Splinter, she ties them all up on a dangling rope above a whirlpool of sludge in the sewer. Leo tries to ambush Piebald à la Predator, but he fails when Piebald uses her camouflage and evade his attack, causing his sludge camo to fly off. Leo finally confesses and offers to save his family if he's flushed in their place, but Piebald doesn't take it, and drops the rope. ...Which suddenly flies back up and breaks when the turtles and Master Splinter fall on dry land.

It's here where we find out that this was all just a prank. Master Splinter knew this entire time that the turtles flushed Piebald and replaced her with a googly-eyed rock (yes really). After Piebald mutated and reunited with Splinter, they came together with an ultimate prank to scare the crap out of the turtles and teach them a lesson that lying is bad, and you should never keep secrets. The episode ends with Piebald winking at the turtles and saying "Later, turds."

Sadly, we never see her again.

Is She Charming? Charismatic? Magnificent?

Indeed. She knew Mikey was the weak link in the group, so she targeted him first, scaring him repeatedly to make him appear crazy and in an effort to admit to what he and his brothers did. When that didn't work, she revealed herself to all the brothers and started spooking them altogether. When they (predictably) chose not to confess, Piebald gradually kidnapped three of the four turtles while they can do nothing but wail and scream. Even when Leo tries to sneak up on her, she ends up dodging his attack and leaving him at her mercy. And by the end of it all, she succeeds in teaching the turtles their lesson.

Even if the episode wasn't an elaborate scheme to teach the turtles their lesson and Piebald was an actual villain, the episode would've ended with her winning.

I should also point out that this is one of the few characters who doesn't lose her magnificence because the writers decided to have something silly happen for the sake of comedy (something that several villains in this series fall victim to).

Is She a Bitch? Too Much of a Bitch?

Now yes, the whole episode is just a prank. Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that she spends the entire time acting like a very disturbing, very hammy slasher villain who tormented the protagonists and put them all in danger. Nor does it dismiss the fact that she suspended most of the heroes above a whirlpool with a rope that easily could've snapped and let them fall to their doom.

Final Verdict?

Given the show's Denser and Wackier tone, along with Piebald achieving her goal from start to finish, I feel like she counts.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#79828: Aug 14th 2022 at 5:37:34 PM

[tup] to Piebald.

[up][up] Thank you.

Edited by DrUnknown on Aug 14th 2022 at 5:39:14 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#79831: Aug 14th 2022 at 7:00:42 PM

[tup] to Belloc and Piebald

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 14th 2022 at 10:00:48 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#79832: Aug 14th 2022 at 7:07:42 PM

[tup] to the Allosaurus, Belloc (saw this one way back when, always thought it was a pilot for a series) and Piebald (eeey more Ninja Turtles grin)

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Aug 14th 2022 at 7:08:19 AM

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#79834: Aug 14th 2022 at 8:15:02 PM

Yes to the Allosaurus, Belloc, and Piebald.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#79835: Aug 14th 2022 at 8:32:55 PM

[tup] to the Allosaurus, Belloc and Piebald.

Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Aug 14th 2022 at 8:33:08 AM

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
HighfalutinQuelea Since: Sep, 2016
#79836: Aug 14th 2022 at 8:38:09 PM

When are the Gray Man MBs and CM supposed to be put up? And my Corvo Attano MB?

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#79837: Aug 14th 2022 at 8:43:47 PM

I'm not sure on Piebald. Even though the series is Denser and Wackier/Lighter and Softer, doesn't it still have villains who credibly try to kill the Turtles?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#79838: Aug 14th 2022 at 9:06:40 PM

That is a good point.

EDIT: Also reserving the Everyone Is Home webcomic, which I’ve been reading.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Aug 14th 2022 at 12:44:28 PM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#79839: Aug 14th 2022 at 9:56:27 PM

Yes to the Allosaurus and Belloc, but I'm gonna abstain on Piebald pending a counter argument.

Got another Warcraft EP planned for tomorrow. It's gonna be on a Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft candidate that should have been put up a long time ago because it felt like this trope was made specifically for him. Prepare yourself, for tomorrow you have the honor of being introduced to:

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#79840: Aug 14th 2022 at 10:22:50 PM

Flipping to an abstain on Piebald.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#79841: Aug 14th 2022 at 10:28:24 PM

@jjjj2: There's...maybe two or three. Two of whom are so vile they'll likely count as being a CM. Every other single villain in the show ends up fighting the turtles, but because of the nature of the show, they feel like your ordinary cartoon villains. And like I said, many of them become a joke later on in the show for the sake of comedy. To illustrate my point, one of the villains starts off as the alleged Big Bad. Then he becomes a lunch lady in disguise. Then he has a full-on Heel–Face Turn.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#79842: Aug 14th 2022 at 10:35:52 PM

I dunno, didn’t we dismiss King Bumi because he didn’t actually intend to put anyone in danger, even if he made them think they were?

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#79843: Aug 14th 2022 at 10:38:21 PM

Yes that's exactly my point. It might be bare minimum, but they're still trying to fight them and I guess kill them. With something like Kids Next Door for comparison, it might not be a visceral horror, but the villains are still trying to kill them. In a series like Proud Family, Phineas and Ferb, Spongebob, Ed Edd and Eddy, I could maybe see it. But as it stands she's just using brutal tactics to teach them a lesson, but not actually hurt them. Just seems like a brutal Guile Hero. I think I'm a [tdown].

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#79844: Aug 14th 2022 at 10:41:15 PM

So if there's so much as even a single villain who tries to kill the protagonists or other people, everyone other villain automatically can't count?

[down] Well that's kinda what I'm getting at. I know this trope has a heinous standard to a degree, but if someone goes out of their way to try and kill someone or a group of people, does that mean no one else can count unless they attempt to reach that kind of level?

Edited by Tyk5919 on Aug 14th 2022 at 1:53:13 PM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#79845: Aug 14th 2022 at 10:49:46 PM

But I’m still conflicted. Kinda confused, too. We’ve approved guys like Master Oogway, who from my understanding put his students near death while knowing they’d make it out alive, and that work has many mass murderers.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Aug 14th 2022 at 1:53:47 PM

Paperfly Buzz from On The Wall Since: Jun, 2022
Buzz
#79846: Aug 14th 2022 at 11:40:45 PM

I think someone has to be hurt or traumatized in someway for the bastardry to bite. I saw Bumi's episode in The Last Airbender, and I don't think his actions led to any kind of serious trauma in anyone.

I haven't seen Rise of the TMNT, so I don't know how traumatic Pie's actions were for the Turtles

Edited by Paperfly on Aug 14th 2022 at 11:45:08 AM

Image Pickin' Backlog
TheLaurelCrownedRaven Since: Apr, 2022 Relationship Status: One Is The Loneliest Number
#79847: Aug 15th 2022 at 2:18:51 AM

OK, looks like the Allosaurus counts.

Before I do his writeup, should I also do one for Quetzal and Dark Eye? So far, they’ve got three [tup]s, one [tdown] and two abstains.

Edited by TheLaurelCrownedRaven on Aug 15th 2022 at 9:27:21 AM

ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#79848: Aug 15th 2022 at 3:19:37 AM

A candidate needs five net "yes" votes to get on the page. I'm still going to abstain on Quetzal/Dark Eye, because I don't feel convinced either way, but it might be good to get more opinions since it's sitting in limbo.

As for Piebald, I'm not quite feeling the whole "not bastard enough" part. While she never intended to kill the Turtles, she did put them in credible danger to make a point about not lying. Even in a denser abd wackier show, that's still pretty disproportionate. I'm not gonna vote on this just yet, because I do want our logic on who does and does not qualify to be consistent, but in a vacuum I'd be leaning yes.

Also for Bumi, was the whole thing about surrendering Omashu without a fight, thereby putting his citizens under the Fire Nation, taken into consideration? There's an argument it was a lose-lose situation, but it was clearly an unpopular move in-universe.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#79849: Aug 15th 2022 at 3:25:15 AM

Uh I wouldn't use that. Surrendering till you know he had an opportunity later was probably the best option to avoid casualties at all.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#79850: Aug 15th 2022 at 3:27:19 AM

Sounds good. I just saw emphasis placed on his first appearance and wanted to make sure everything was covered.


Total posts: 82,595
Top