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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#79801: Aug 14th 2022 at 7:10:36 AM

[tup]Unnamed Allosaurus.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#79802: Aug 14th 2022 at 7:14:02 AM

Yes to the allosaurus.

Btw Rav and I will be watching out for developments on the possible fourth Austin Powers movie!

Edited by 43110 on Aug 14th 2022 at 12:01:36 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#79803: Aug 14th 2022 at 10:08:32 AM

[tup]Allosaurus

One of my fav predatory dinos. Do you know they hunted Sauropods?

Edit : [tup]Three sparks.

Edited by miraculous on Aug 14th 2022 at 10:09:05 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CrystallicWolf108 The Controversial Guy Since: Sep, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
The Controversial Guy
#79804: Aug 14th 2022 at 10:52:31 AM

Hey, so I’ve actually got a MB candidate in mind that may be tricky but I think is worth proposing. Their proposal might be long due to me explaining a lot of things, so I’ll ask, is there a limit on how long a MB proposal can be? Sorry if this isn’t the place to ask.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#79805: Aug 14th 2022 at 10:57:56 AM

We will accept long EPs, but that's generally for candidates who do a lot and are in long running works. My first EP was around 2500 words, and that was for a candidate who was in five seasons. If it's only a single season/single movie keeper, around 1000 words should probably be fine. Anything longer than 3000 words is reaching my limit especially if the candidate is in the aforementioned single season/movie.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#79806: Aug 14th 2022 at 11:14:37 AM

I'm willing to read a long EP if there's a lot that needs said, but if you do go on the long side, try to subdivide it into digestible chunks.

ANonagon9 (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Purgatoryisof2 Since: Aug, 2022
#79808: Aug 14th 2022 at 11:25:04 AM

[tup] The Unnamed Allosaurus.

Edited by Purgatoryisof2 on Aug 14th 2022 at 2:25:17 PM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#79809: Aug 14th 2022 at 11:43:17 AM

@ Fire Emblem order: I'd do it by IRL release.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#79810: Aug 14th 2022 at 12:14:01 PM

Double post my bad tongue

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 14th 2022 at 3:14:34 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#79811: Aug 14th 2022 at 12:14:17 PM

[tup] to the Allosaurus

Alright here are my write-ups

  • Terminal List:
    • Lieutenant Commander James Reece is a US Navy SEAL seeking revenge on those who killed his comrades and family. Reece would find the identity of each person involved in these killings before murdering them in brilliant yet brutal fashions, while finding ways to evade the authorities pursuing him. Faking his death after killing everyone on his list, Reece would figure out Ben Edwards role in the events months later before killing him to complete his revenge.
    • Ben Edwards is a former Navy SEAL and CIA operative who allowed his comrades to take the drug, RC-4895, believing that it would cure their PTSD before letting the his conspirators kill them so they wouldn't slowly die from their brain tumors. When Edwards learns that they also killed their families he turns on them out of disgust helping James Reece uncover their identities and kill them. Evading capture and going to Peru, Edwards accepts his death when Reece learns of his own involvement.

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 14th 2022 at 3:14:45 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#79812: Aug 14th 2022 at 1:03:36 PM

Another trope work for Reece? The Protagonist (and The Hero) are omnipresent tropes we aren't supposed to use apparently.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#79816: Aug 14th 2022 at 2:49:49 PM

[tup] to the unnamed Allosaurus

Here's another candidate.

What's the Work?

Firebreather is a CGI-animated television film set after a catastrophic war between humanity and an ancient race of giant monsters called Kaiju. In the final days of the war, a woman named Margaret Rosenblatt falls in love with the Kaiju's king, Belloc, and (somehow) conceives a human/Kaiju hybrid named Duncan. Sixteen years later, Duncan tries to live the life of a normal teenage boy and control his Kaiju powers, namely his ability to breathe fire. Unfortunately, this gets all the more difficult when his father reemerges...

Who is Belloc and What Has He Done?

The aforementioned king of the Kaiju, Belloc initially despised humanity for invading his race's territory and displacing them off of it, so he waged a genocidal war against them to reclaim it. However, upon falling in love with Margaret and birthing Duncan, Belloc recognized the error of his ways and called off his crusade, leading the Kaiju underground and pursuing a mutual, if tense and secret, coexistence with mankind. Unfortunately, not all Kaiju accepted this peace, particularly by the second-most powerful Kaiju, Abaddon and Astaroth. Belloc's dominance has kept these ambitions in check, but with his growing seniority, he now needs an heir who will be ruthless and powerful enough to rule the Kaiju.

He chooses Duncan as his next successor, but he believes the human world has made him "soft", so he invades a high school party Duncan attends to kidnap him, even threatening to crush one of his friends to get a taste of his barbaric rage. Taking him to the Kaiju's lair and throwing him in a pool of lava to permanently unveil his physical Kaiju characteristics, Belloc releases his son back to the human world so that he can send another Kaiju to ambush him and test if he is strong enough to rule. Observing this fight to the death and against his son's wishes, Belloc continually urges Duncan to be more merciless and kill his opponent, but just as his son refuses to do so, the human military attacks the perceived Kaiju invader. After taking his son to safe refuge, Belloc fights back, but just as he's about to turn the tides, he gets a better idea.

Suspecting that Abaddon and Astaroth would still pose threats to him and Duncan, Belloc surrenders himself so that he can remain close to Duncan and wait for the duo to emerge and try to overthrow his heir apparent, where they can then be neutralized. His prediction ends up proven right when the two Kaiju emerge to go after Duncan and, just as the military mobilizes after the invaders, Belloc takes advantage of their distraction to break out of his prison and overcome their weakened defenses. Teaming up with Duncan, his son's Love Interest Jenna, and Margaret, Belloc fights the traitorous Kaiju and wants to have them killed, but Duncan, still retaining his humanity, instead causes an avalanche that incapacitates the two in a deep hibernation. In the aftermath, Belloc is impressed, gracefully accepting Duncan's Martial Pacifist approach and his decision to remain in the human world as their protector. Despite having every opportunity to break himself free again, Belloc returns to his captivity by the humans so that he can remain close with his family.

Is He Charming? Intelligent? Able to Think on His Feet?

Belloc is extremely adaptable. For example, when he can't find a hiding Duncan to kidnap, he simply gets on four legs to sniff him out and finds him mere seconds later. What seals the deal is when he pulls off an elaborate, improvised scheme that gets rid of his biggest competitors and ends with him in a more positive situation than he was before.

Is He a Bastard? Too Much of One?

He's a definite bastard of the Anti-Villain sort. He acts as a corrupting influence on Duncan, trying to turn him into a cutthroat killer against his wishes, pitting him in life-threatening tests, and willing to terrorize one of his friends to provoke his aggression. However, he does have an understandable motive in his mentoring; strength is the only thing the Kaiju respect and he wants to produce an heir who will be unrelenting enough to fight off rivals and keep the Kaiju from invading humanity again. He even softens up by the end and becomes content with Duncan adopting a more light-handed approach when he learns that such methods can work.

The Competition

In terms of planning, Belloc is unrivaled.

Final Verdict?

What do you guys think?

[down] Thank you!

Edited by DrUnknown on Aug 14th 2022 at 3:14:14 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#79817: Aug 14th 2022 at 3:10:54 PM

Good work! Yes to Belloc the king of the kaiju who… has a kid with a human. Never change, fiction!

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#79818: Aug 14th 2022 at 3:14:18 PM

Ooh, I remember this one! [tup] Belloc, as well as Sparks and the allo.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#79819: Aug 14th 2022 at 3:22:19 PM

Seems like an easy [tup] to Belloc.

Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 14th 2022 at 6:22:27 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#79820: Aug 14th 2022 at 3:23:40 PM

[tup]Belloc

Think I caught an advert for this on cartoon network wayback?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#79822: Aug 14th 2022 at 3:38:28 PM

[tup] to Chameleons A & B, Ve'nari, Caellach, Eric Myers, Sayu and his twin, Ursula, Neshamah, James Reece, Number Two, Ben Edwards, Three Sparks, Unnamed Allosaurus and Belloc.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#79823: Aug 14th 2022 at 3:48:03 PM

[tup] for Belloc.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#79824: Aug 14th 2022 at 3:55:41 PM

Any difference between this and the version in the comics btw Unknown?

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#79825: Aug 14th 2022 at 4:10:21 PM

[up] There are several big differences between the animated adaptation and the comics. For a couple off the top of my head, there was no Abaddon and Astaroth to fight at the end and Belloc is generally a lot more callous, such as endangering his wife in one of Duncan's tests. He also dies in the comic series, which is another huge deviation. Admittedly, I'm still in the middle of reading it, but I wanted to get his animated adaptation version out since I've had it ready for a couple of weeks now.

Edited by DrUnknown on Aug 14th 2022 at 4:10:27 AM


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