During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to Jaqen, fine with Sandaaru from what I'm hearing tbh.
Ok! One more quickie for us, from that lovely animation studio Dreamworks...
What's the work?
Shrek...what can be said about it? It is love. It is life.
Truthfully, though, it's a classic animated movie about a green, might ogre who lives in an isolated swamp, minding his own business, until a talking donkey, a locked away princess, and a zany cast of fairy tale characters turned him into a husband, a father, a meme, and a film series.
Let's take a look at the final film in the main series, Shrek Forever After. Big Bad Rumpelstiltskin tricks Shrek into signing a magical contract that creates a world where Shrek was never born and Rumpel reigns surpeme over the kingdom of Far, Far Away, opposed only by a rebel group of ogres. Shrek, naturally, joins up with the ogres in an attempt to take down Rumpel and fix reality, and Rumpel can't have that, so after a series of failed schemes to capture Shrek and the ogres, he calls in...
Who is the Pied Piper? What makes him a candidate?
An unspoken, dark musician who uses a flute to soothe everything from rats to ducks, the Pied Piper is reimagined in Rumpel's reality as a dangerous Bounty Hunter who Rumpel has a past with, detailed in a prequel comic (yes, freaking Shrek has prequel comics lmao) in which the Piper was ambushed and his original flute stolen by the Rat King, to which the Piper was approached by and made a magical deal with Rumpel for a new, more powerful flute that the Piper used to overthrow the Rat King and take control of his rat kingdom for his own, the comic ending with the Piper seated triumphantly upon a throne of rats.
Now, in Forever After itself, the Piper is called in by Rumpel for a bounty hunting job...to capture the entirety of the ogre rebel army against Rumpel's rule. When a group of Rumpel's minion witches laugh at the idea of the Piper being any sort of threat, the Piper switches his flute to witch setting (he apparently has all the good settings!) and forces the witches to breakdance before him to prove his skill to Rumpel. Rumpel "pays the piper" and dispatches him to capture the ogres.
The Piper cleverly takes advantage of the fact that Rumpel is scheduled to depart by carriage—haulel along by his pet giant goose Fefe—one night to anticipate that the rebel ogres will ambush the carriage to capture Rumpel. The ambush goes off, the carriage is ransacked...and is empty, the Piper having used the carriage as a decoy to lure out the ogres. The Piper then reveals he has disguised himself as the giant goose, whips out his flute, and proceeds to...make the entire ogre army dance
to "Shake Your Groove Thing" by Peaches & Herb.
With rebel leader Fiona and Shrek barely rescued by their non-ogre allies, the Piper leads the rest of the ogres in a dance line straight to Rumpel's palace to all be imprisoned. Rumpel is, unfortunately, rather pissed that Shrek and Fiona were not captured, and childishly berates the Piper for failing to catch them—but nonetheless takes advantage of the Piper's skill and requests the Piper use his flute to pull his socks up lol
The Piper is last seen in the restored reality after Rumpel is defeated, getting a karmic payback on Rumpel by forcing him to dance in the Dance Party Ending...right after Rumpel's beloved Fefe has been fuckin blow to pieces and Rumpel has a horrified look on his face as the Piper forces him to dance in celebration. Damn lmao
Is he magnificent?
Lol yes, he's a badass bounty hunter who uses a magic flute to force people to "fandango themselves into oblivion!", utterly humiliates the witches who laugh at him, takes out the Rat King in a prequel comic to assume control of the rat army, rats which he uses to glide himself around on, captures the entire rebel army in one fell swoop after years of Rumpel's entire forces failing to...he does "fail" to capture Shrek and Fiona through no real fault of his own and get berated by Rumpel for it, but it's not a major dressing down and he even "by proxy" gets revenge for it when his reverted-reality self forces Rumpel to dance around the remains of his pet goose lol
Is he a bastard?
Yep, bounty hunter who captures all the ogres for Rumpel to imprison and threaten the lives of, bad dude!
Final Verdict?
Easy yeah haha
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!So with a unanimous 12
for Hades, here's my write-up for him:
- Wonder Woman (2009): Hades is the lord of the underworld and the god of death. When Ares escapes from his imprisonment on Themyscira, he asks Hades to destroy the bracers keeping him mortal in exchange for giving him new souls to serve him. When Ares calls out Zeus for choosing politics over his own son, Hades parades out Ares's deceased son Thrax as his personal slave to highlight his own hypocrisy. Having earlier been warned by Zeus not to help Ares because he foresaw his eventual defeat, Hades agrees to restore Ares's godly powers knowing he would eventually fail. After Ares is killed in battle by Wonder Woman, Hades turned him into his personal zombified slave, ready to serve at his new master's side.
I'll also throw a
for the Pied Piper as well.
Well we got the Shrek MB who replaced Humpty now. Based on the EP and the film—didn't read the comic—
to the Piper! Maybe we'll get another keeper with the Puss in Boots sequel this year.
Once again, I'm impressed. Once again, WWRTON comes to mind: "What Will Ravok Think Of Next?" Haha.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 14th 2022 at 1:43:40 AM
Not really finding myself getting into the show so I'll give a yes for now as well. abstain... this really isn't meshing with the tone given from his CM EP which includes a brutal history known for his "brutal scorched earth tactics", seems to be Tau Zant's army head doing the eradication and I'm not sure how this business of dragging civilians into fights goes or murdering one of his cohorts (from the bit of the episode I saw, there were some Ineffectual Sympathetic Villains) and it's not jiving for me. I'm not comfortable with this one, reserving the right to come back to it and I'd much appreciate an absence of accusations for choosing not to upvote a candidate, thank you.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 14th 2022 at 5:00:01 AM
Yes to the Pied Piper.
Does anyone mind if I do 2 Runescape expansions tomorrow before the two weeks? A release that brought a long story arc to a close came out on the 4th and I was wanting to fit in the expanded write ups before the swap this week.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Was in a rush earlier so couldn't comment on too many things but yes, agreeing here that we need to avoid accusations of not properly utilizing the trope especially to people who have been taking part for years and seen it through its highs and lows. Do I sometimes think some of us can be a bit too strict on specific characters and tropes around them, be it CM, or what consistitues a Villainous Breakdown, or what is or isn't immoral enough? Absolutely yes, and I fully admit I myself have made mistakes in the past with characters that I now am like "well shit, yeah, they probably do count." But that does not = "mishandling" or "misunderstanding" the trope, nor warrant accusations of trying to "move away" from what the trope "should" mean, we all have certain standards on what we think the trope is and that's why we vote and have established a pretty solid standard that has been set for years and that is generally abided by well by most of the users.
In fact, on the very note, I'mma be totally upfront here: if STAR or anyone else wants to repropose Humpty from Puss In Boots, I perosnally would wholeheartedly support him this go-around. The tone of the films and their comedic nature makes me far more fine with him having very small moments of fear or cowardice when, chips go down, he's fine putting his ass on the line for the sake of his scheming and even sacrifices himself to save the day. We've got several cartoon MBs who have their share of comedic "eeek!" reactions to things that nonetheless still count, and put bluntly, the arguments I made against him back then were being way too harsh on someone from a zany Puss in Boots flick.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 14th 2022 at 2:12:16 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I didn't use a name or mean to antagonize, it was an example of heated moments popping up recently. As you have chosen to identify yourself, I will remove it. With your edited post it would not have been something people could surmise had you not mentioned.
Actually I'd suggest editing that out as well if you'd like your privacy on the matter. I'll remove the rest of this post if you want to do so.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 14th 2022 at 5:31:16 AM
I admit I phrased my argument poorly. I shouldn’t have accused the thread of doing its job poorly. If I think certain approved M Bs don’t fit my image of the trope, that’s not the thread doing its job wrong, that’s just a difference of opinion.
Check out my current fanfiction project.

You said we are afraid to have Magnificent Bastards who are Bastards, I have trouble taking that statement in any other way.
I've done multiple crossovers myself but I'd sincerely appreciate some relax on the attitude of finding a CM and then trying to see how they can be forced into MB. 9 times out of 10 they're cut on a re-evaluation which usually falls on me to do. Rather than actually expanding the list, it creates something we'll have to revisit to get rid of because they were improperly evaluated. All I'm saying is I'd appreciate my time and effort being accounted for and people really thinking things through before writing very positively-toned posts for contentious characters or upvoting them. It's hours I've had to put in, please be respectful of that.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 14th 2022 at 4:18:08 AM