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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#73751: Apr 14th 2022 at 6:17:32 AM

[up] I'm not sure where him being a "sadist" comes from. Sandaaru is swift and efficient with his kills and he's stoic whenever he's fighting. There aren't any moments where he really shows sadistic tendencies. The closest that I can think of would be that he seemed to take satisfaction in killing Sargain, but that was because Sargain was a rival and nuisance to him, that wasn't anything to do with him enjoying causing pain. I think that might just be people adding on adjectives because they sound "evil" without really understanding what they mean.

Sandaaru didn't come to Earth to destroy it. In fact, it wouldn't make sense for him to want to destroy Earth, as the materials Jakanja needed to set up their evil plan were all on Earth.

Hurricaneger can currently be watched for free on Shout Factory! TV if you're interested in checking it out for yourself. Sandaaru makes his first appearance in episode 39.

Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Apr 14th 2022 at 6:18:00 AM

Just imagine something here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#73752: Apr 14th 2022 at 6:26:59 AM

I agree Sandaaru isn't necessarily sadistic. He's brutal, but not overtly sadistic. It would be possible for him to cross over, he's ruthlessly efficient, and while he does destroy earth (it's pretty obvious the planets he destroyed for Tau Zant were inhabited, Sandaaru is an elite conqueror, not a demolitions expert)...

I can honestly see it. His main CM credential comes from hijacking Tau Zant's plot, to be a god instead.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#73753: Apr 14th 2022 at 7:03:11 AM

Becoming a god isn't my issue... he might be an elite conquerer rather than "demolitions expert" but he's subjugating a string of planets so they can be destroyed, correct? What I'm getting at is if this gets approved I don't want to have to come back to him, he seems to be in a number of episodes and sentai shows aren't really my thing so I'd rather not go through a number of episodes myself.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#73754: Apr 14th 2022 at 7:05:47 AM

Hmm looking the EP thoroughly, I think I’ll give a Sandaaru a [tup]. He’s definitely very bad but he doesn’t seem too overtly sadistic or personal for me to me “yeah he’s too much of a vile SOB despite his planning and brilliance

Edited by G-Editor on Apr 14th 2022 at 10:08:03 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#73755: Apr 14th 2022 at 7:06:55 AM

G please be thinking this one through. You are quite quick to upvote crossovers and I don't want to have to return to this. I can see it but I really need everyone analyzing this one.

ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#73756: Apr 14th 2022 at 7:15:28 AM

[up] I'm rewatching some of Hurricaneger now. Sandaaru is shown destroying a planet, but it's from a distance and not played for horror at all. No living beings are shown suffering or dying. Planet destruction in Sentai isn't usually treated with a lot of gravitas other than being a way to say "look at how strong this villain is, he destroyed an entire planet". It's sort of similar to how Sentai and other giant robot shows handwave the deaths that very likely would occur if a giant robot fought a kaiju in a crowded city.

Just imagine something here.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#73757: Apr 14th 2022 at 7:18:16 AM

People seem to want him up so far so that’s fine. I’ll go through his episodes on the weekend.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#73758: Apr 14th 2022 at 7:22:34 AM

I understand concerns about me voting [tup] for a Cm, but I looked over the EP and I really don’t see anything considering militating. Sandaaru is a shark ninja who seems to show off his pragmatic and cunning over his crimes while lacking any overtly sadistic or atrocious with his villainy while the reason why he ends up being a CM is that he to appears in a Lighter and Softer show and he just happen to stand out due to his crimes being of bigger scale and he just happens to lack redeeming qualities. I not saying that I’m an expert in Sentai as I never watched the show but unless the EP is missing anything I honestly don’t see any thing to wrong with Sandaaru

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#73759: Apr 14th 2022 at 7:23:33 AM

Yes to Jaquen and Hades.

Holding off on Sandaaru.

[up] 43 did raise concerns, and I am not inclined to ignore them.

[down] I'm just saying why I am abstaining. It's more what 43 said than the fact he said anything. Plus I have a notorious Bias Steamroller when it comes to these types of candidates.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 14th 2022 at 10:32:01 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#73760: Apr 14th 2022 at 7:29:03 AM

[up]Why exactly do we all need to only vote after he says so?

[up][down]My bad. Misunderstood

[down]Sorry about that.

Edited by miraculous on Apr 14th 2022 at 8:11:06 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#73761: Apr 14th 2022 at 7:29:06 AM

Thanks Sky but G's gonna keep his upvote. I don't want Reddish forced to wait anyways, if someone's gonna give a quick yes that's not his fault.

mir's right, G's welcome to say yes. Edit: mir, he just said he's holding off, he didn't say you of G had to.

[up] I understand but that appeared extremely unfriendly, please do be mindful as you've said you'll be.

Edited by 43110 on Apr 14th 2022 at 10:36:28 AM

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#73762: Apr 14th 2022 at 8:02:13 AM

Yes to Jaquen and Hades. Very tentative yes to Sandaaru.

Edited by YobabyColin on Apr 14th 2022 at 11:39:45 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#73763: Apr 14th 2022 at 8:07:19 AM

Abstaining on Sandaaru

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#73764: Apr 14th 2022 at 8:15:58 AM

Yes to Jaquen and Hades.

Abstaining on Sandaaru.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#73765: Apr 14th 2022 at 9:06:23 AM

  • The Faceless Man or Men posing as "Jaqen H'ghar" act as a polite yet peerless master assassin. Offering to train Arya after displaying his prowess, Jaqen subjects her to grueling training while emphasizing she learns to patiently stake her targets. When Arya deviates from course, Jaqen allows his sadistic pupil the Waif to attack her but is impressed when Arya overcomes and kills the Waif, declaring her "no one" and letting her leave to forge her own path.

Query: Is there a more specific trope when the situation is it's unclear if one character or multiple are using the same alias?

[down] Sure.

Edited by 43110 on Apr 14th 2022 at 12:31:43 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#73766: Apr 14th 2022 at 9:23:19 AM

[tup]Jaquen and Hades.

[up]Collective Identity maybe ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#73767: Apr 14th 2022 at 10:15:00 AM

[tup] Hades and Jaq

Here's one I'm not sure on but is at least worth a shot.

Also sorry, this is gonna be a bit long.

The work

The Renegades trilogy by Marissa Meyer is about a world where people known as prodigies have superpowers but were persecuted through out history, until a prodigy called Ace Anarchy stopped that... by pretty much destroying civilization, tearing down governments and such, plunging the world into chaos for 20 years. After that Ace and his gang the Anarchists were defeated by a group of superheroes called the Renegades lead by the invulnerable Captain Chromium, who then began to rebuild the city of Gatlon, essentially becoming the city government and established the Renegades as a sort of superpowered police force.

10 years after though, the remnants of the Anarchists send Nova Artino, Ace's young niece undercover as The Mole in the Renegades so they can bring them down. Nova joins the team of Captain Chromium's adopted son Adrian.

My candidate is our Villain Protagonist, Nova Artino aka Nightmare aka Insomnia.

Who is Nova and what has she done

Nova Artino is a prodigy with her powers being The Sleepless and can put people to sleep with skin to skin contact.

Book to book

    Renegades 

In the prologue Nova is 6 and is doing some little tinkering with stuff when a gunman comes in and kills her parents and baby sister. He's about to kill her when she puts him to asleep, then her uncle Ace shows up, kills him and takes her away, telling her that a gang was trying to force her father to make them weapons, he went to the Renegades for protection but they failed and its their fault her family is dead.

After Ace is defeated, what's left of the Anarchists make a truce with the Renegades and agree to lay low in an abandoned subway tunnel, with the Renegades not knowing about Nova, while the Anarchists secretly plot to destroy the Renegades.

Years later Nova starts fighting some Renegades patrols under the name "Nightmare".

The book proper opens on a parade the Renegades are throwing on the anniversary of Ace's defeat, with Nova on the rooftops taking aim at the Captain to see if his invulnerability covers his eyes, with other Anarchists ready to blow up the rest of the Renegade council once he's down. Nova hesitates on the thought of killing someone and misses the shot, and Winston Pratt, an Anarchist who wasn't part of the plan shows up and starts attacking the parade in a hot air balloon.

Nova starts to bail but is attacked by Adrian's team and a mysterious figure known as the Sentinel, but she manages to beat them and hops onto Pratt's balloon. Upon realizing the balloon will need to lose some weight to get away she has the choice of dumping her duffel bag of gadgets or Pratt off. She chooses Pratt and tosses him off into the arms of the Renegades.

Afterwards the Anarchists decide to give Nova a false identity so she can undercover in the Renegades.

Taking the name Nova Mc Lain she goes to the Renegade tryouts as Insomnia claiming her power is just being The Sleepless but also being good with tech. They're not impressed and she has to beat a Renegade in a fight to get in, and she fights a big brute, and manages to beat him through skill and outwitting him. She joins the Renegades on Adrian's team.

Their first mission is to surveil Gene Cronin, the guy who sold Nova the gun she used at the parade, to see if he's running a black market arm ring of the library he runs.

Nova comes up with the plan to warn Cronin beforehand, have him hide all of the evidence and have it so the Renegades search the place, find nothing and clear Cronin of suspicion. She has Ingrid Thompson, who has the power to make and detonate bombs at will.

When her team goes in she discovers Ingrid thought she had a better plan: don't warn Cronin, and try to blow up Adrian thinking this will demoralize the Renegades enough she'll be able to take down the whole organization. Her bomb sets the library on fire and Nova fake arrests Ingrid, allowing her to escape while reaming her for her stupidity. Then the Sentinel shows up and offers to let Cronin go if he gives info on Nightmare. Nova realizes she's supposed to find a way to kill him, and his granddaughter Narcissa to cover her identity, but can't. Then Ingrid shows up, shoots Cronin dead and tries to kill Narcissa but she escapes.

After all this the Anarchists abandon their subway tunnel, and start to hide in the house they set up Nova with. While giving Ingrid the boot.

As Adrian's team interrogates Pratt with Nova there she manages to keep her cool and Pratt doesn't rat her out and instead gives them a false lead to an amusement park.

After that as Nova is working at HQ late at night she sees Max, a little kid who the Renegades keep in a quarantine levitate with a glass city he has, accidentally scares him and cause him to fall down and break the glass, so Nova runs in to help him, only to pass out since it turns Max's power is that he steals other people's powers just by being near them, but is rescued before she can lose her powers.

Later after that she goes to look at Ace's destroyed Amplifier Artifact helmet, only to realize that it's fake. She's then told the Renegades never actually managed to destroy it, just said they did, and that the real one is locked up in their artifacts department.

Later then Ingrid shows up to her and tells her she has an idea: stage a fake fight between her and Nightmare and then fake kill each other to get the Renegades off their backs. She then tells her she'll blow her cover if she doesn't, so Nova reluctantly agrees.

So Nova and Adrian go on a sorta date to the park Pratt mentioned while scoping out for Nightmare. They find a clue Nova left pointing them to the abandoned funhouse, where Nova sets it up so she gets separated from Adrian, and he finds proof that this is where Nightmare stays. Then she and Ingrid start fake fighting, only for it to turn out Ingrid is actually trying to kill her.

Ingrid seemingly kills Nightmare, and begins to try to blow up the whole park, only for Nova to pop out of some rubble and shoots her in the head, taking her bombs with her.

Nova is lauded as the hero who save everyone while the council floundered, and everyone believes Nightmare is dead. Nova then goes to an abandoned catacomb under the Anarchists old cathedral and tells the still alive Ace that his helmet is still intact.

    Archenemies 

So Nova continues working as Insomnia, catching crooks while keeping an eye out, when the council reveals that they have created a substance called Agent N, which permanently takes away a prodigy's powers, which Nova hates the idea of.

After that Nova begins to also work in the artifacts department to find the helmet, discovers that the security there amounts to some cameras, but the helmet is locked in an invulnerable box.

Nova tells Ace about N ge tells her to snag some so they can use it on the Renegades.

She manages to snag some N, and some gas bombs from artifacts so she can modify them to spray N, and tries to open the box but it doesn't work.

She ends up spending the night at Adrian's house, and while there a little star Adrian made for her joins the bracelet that was made by her father that she always wears agrees to Adrian's date to a charity gala that the Renegades will be hosting that'll leave their HQ mostly empty, and then snatches the Amulet of Vitality, an amulet that makes the wearer immune to Agent N. Captain Chromium let's slip that a chromium weapon he's made might be able to break the box.

As Nova plans to steal the helmet on the night of the gala, she spots a butterfly spying on her, one of her teammates Danna who can turn into a swarm of butterflies whose been suspicious of her, she quickly catches it in a jar so she can't turn back and inform the others.

After Nova spends some time at the gala she makes up an excuse to leave, and heads out to Renegade HQ dressed as Nightmare and sneaks in to grab the helmet.

She tries to use a chromium spear, it doesn't work, but then it reacts to the star in her bracelet and it breaks the box. As she's leaving she's attacked by some Renegades there and uses the Agent N gas bombs on them.

However the fight did get Max's attention and he jumps in to try and stop her, though the amulet protects her powers. As they fight one of the Renegades throws a spear at Nova, but misses and hits Max. Nova beats the last Renegade and drags her over to Max so he can take her power to help him survive. Nova then escapes, but learns that Adrian's team stumbled onto Ace and arrested him.

    Supernova 

As Nova is trying to find a way to spring Ace, and terrified her cover could be blown at any moment, she gets a message, drop the helmet off at a specific point or her secret is out. Nova goes there and leaves the fake helmet.

Then Narcissa shows up at her house, reveals she's the one who left the message, and wants the real helmet. Nova offers an alliance with her since she also hates the Renegades, but she rejects, runs off and breaks the jar Danna's butterfly is in, and it escapes.

As Nova prepares to run since Danna will blow her cover she sets up a bomb that will destroy her house and all the evidence, but she gets arrested before she can run afterwards.

In prison Nova refuses to confess, insisting she's innocent, even when her sentence is bumped to be publicly executed next to Ace at the public unveiling of Agent N and is told if she talks it can change.

Fortunately, Narcissa changes her mind and allies with them, and shows up to the Renegades as Nightmare bragging that she framed Nova but even she won't let her get executed for nothing. Since most of the evidence they had on Nova was circumstanceal, she's let out.

She team's up with Narcissa who is leading a group of people rejected by the Renegades to bust out Ace at the execution.

They disrupt everything at the event and in the chaos Ace gets the helmet. He begins to tear the place apart, but Nova convinces him to regroup.

Once they regroup Nova tells Ace she think her bracelet might be able to help him.

Adrian and his team try to sneak into the cathedral, Nova knew he would and they're waiting for them, with Nova finally revealing to them that she is Nightmare.

Holding Adrian hostage Ace orders her to shoot Adrian. She can't go through with it but Captain Chromium throws a spear at her before Ace can notice, and the 2 start fighting.

Another Anarchist tries to make Nova kill Adrian and tries to kill her when she refuses, but Nova kills her instead.

Nova now resolved to stop goes to him during fight and claims to have killed Adrian. Ace doesn't believe it and takes her bracelet from her to become even more powerful, and he starts to lift up much of the surrounding city to destroy it. Nova shoots an Agent N dart at him, he catches it, only for Nova to jab with a second Agent N dart, taking away his powers. He tries to physically throw her off the roof but gets impaled on the spear first.

After that, she gives Max( he had shown up to help fight Ace) the helmet and bracelet so he can catch and set down the buildings Ace had lifted, with it he also starts stealing everyone's powers, but then reverses it and gives everyone in the world powers instead.

In the epilogue Nova is shown happy with Adrian.

Magnificence

Nova is a Gadgeteer Genius, she makes almost all of her equipment herself, and some of it is pretty advanced. She's a Combat Pragmatist that uses her skills to get an opening to put them to sleep, or to beat them other ways, allowing her to win when she's outnumbered or against much stronger opponents.

Nova maintains her cover for months and while she does have some small slipups here and there she manages to get around them and makes up lies on the spot so almost no one suspects her.

She has numerous points about the Renegades, like the people have become dependent on prodigies, that the council isn't really suited for city administration, etc.

However, some of her more noble actions nearly cost her, such as not killing Narcissa, which both screws her and then unscrews her later. Saving Max during the heist is made clear to be putting her cover in danger, since why would Nightmare save him?

But my biggest concern is that while she is not a coward, we see in her head and she's nervous at first about blowing her cover, and at the beginning of Supernova she's practically shitting herself that her cover could blown at any moment. While around the Renegades she manages to keep it in, on the inside its clear she's scared she'll be caught at any moment. She's not scared all the time, she's much more sure they won't catch her after she spends some time on the job and after she gets out of prison. But the fear is there at times.

Bastard-ness

So she is the Token Good Teammate of the Anarchists, being the most reluctant to kill, being the most concerned about the ways the Renegades aren't really helping, and all of her actions are necessary to her goal of bringing them down.

But she does infiltrate the Renegades to help the Anarchists to take them down, throws Pratt, who is on her side out of the hot air balloon so she can escape at the parade, does help Ace for a while, and kept Danna trapped as a butterfly, so I think she's bad enough but not too bad.

Conclusion

I'm not sure how mitigating her justifiable fear of being caught and her kinder actions nearly screwing her over are, so maybe, but if that's not too much of a hold back I think she's good.

Edited by Agentofchaos on Apr 14th 2022 at 2:19:31 PM

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
MiraiYuji Since: Dec, 2015
#73768: Apr 14th 2022 at 10:23:44 AM

[tup]Jaquen and Hades.

As for Sandaaru...what exactly are we looking for in a crossover CM/MB?

  • Someone who's 100% evil, but more in being like "Holy crap, he's ruthless, but beautifully competent!" than "Holy crap, they gotta stop him from burning an orphanage"?
  • Someone who isn't sadistic at all, someone who is merely enjoying their acts of evil rather than the pain they cause, or someone who IS kinda sadistic, but rarely pointlessly cruel?
  • Or are we just looking for someone with enough magnificent traits to balance out much of the evil they do, provided it's not TOO bad (rape being an instant disqualifier, for instance)?

Forgive me if this all sound too similar, but this can be tricky to judge.

YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
#73769: Apr 14th 2022 at 10:39:22 AM

Yes to Nova.

[up][up] All three, but mostly the latter.

Edited by YobabyColin on Apr 14th 2022 at 1:39:47 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#73770: Apr 14th 2022 at 10:44:57 AM

Gonna request a truncation on Nova's post please and the best way I can think of describing it Mirai is like Hans, Dudley or Vicious who are probably the strongest three... they're ruthless, cunning villains who largely wow you with how they operate and they posit their magnificence before their bastard criteria kicks in and the latter doesn't overshadow the former.

@ Agent, I see you folderized but can you get it back 1000 words or so? I did Sesshomaru, who's a major character in a 559-chapter manga and its 48-episode anime sequel in under 1500.

Edited by 43110 on Apr 14th 2022 at 1:54:57 PM

EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#73771: Apr 14th 2022 at 11:45:07 AM

[tup] Jaqen, Hades, and Nova (was thinking about her a few months ago). I... think I'll give a tentative yes to Sandaaru, if only for now. The "blowing up planets" thing doesn't seem too bad to me since, you know, it's a sentai, though I'll be open to changing my mind.

I'm pretty confident I'll have a crossover ready in a month or two. I've been talking up the Dead King from A Practical Guide to Evil a lot lately and he's fucking awesome: all the grandiose yet merciless brilliance of Makuta Teridax without the petty sadism. It's not exactly [up] where the magnificence presents itself before the heinousness, more going hand-in-hand if that makes sense.

It helps that he has a sympathetic goal, the heinous standard is so ridiculously high that his horrid methods of wiping out all life on a continent the size of Australia are only barely worse than the norm, and he's... weirdly humanized through his respect for worthy enemies. Dude will still kill everyone and not lose a wink of sleep over it, but he's also just so genuinely affable that, in all honesty, I think I might have more trouble getting him up on CM. And yes, I know "genuine respect" and "kill everything without batting an eye" don't really mesh together, but he makes it work! He's such a goddamn good character and has completely ruined all other liches for me.

Sorry, I know I'm gushing, but he's so cool and I can't wait to get to him. Obviously not doing so at the moment, because that would take way too much time and I have exams coming up, but just... uh, testing the waters?

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#73772: Apr 14th 2022 at 11:51:42 AM

Yes to Hades and Nova.

Zaros from Runescape will likely be a crossover one day when his story arc is finally finished up. I could probably make a good argument for him as CM now to be honest.

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Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#73773: Apr 14th 2022 at 12:49:01 PM

[tup] to Hades, Nova, and Saanderu. To be honest I think this thread is a bit too leery of having Magnificent Bastards be…well, actual bastards. I admit I’m a little guilty of it myself; I probably shouldn’t have EP’d Threnody Cain. Obviously, we don’t want rapists or torture enthusiasts to get the label, but I also don’t think Jonah Hex is villainous enough to deserve to be approved.

Edit: I should have phrased this differently. I don’t think the issue is that the thread does its job badly, and taking extra caution with potential CM crossovers is completely justified. My issue is more that I dislike the general drift towards unambiguously good M Bs with only a few aspects that would qualify them as “bastards.” However, that is purely my opinion and not something I should label as a problem with the thread itself.

Edited by Critica7 on Apr 14th 2022 at 2:40:18 AM

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43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#73774: Apr 14th 2022 at 12:50:40 PM

So you're saying we don't know what we're doing about our criteria? Cool, thanks Critica!

"Why don't you just approve more CMs?" has been a long standing issue from users unfamiliar with the thread for years now, there's good reason for the additional scrutiny and ignoring the years of work put into this to just put down what we do and quickly upvote every CM is going to have the trope decay back into the issues it had before, kindly take a step back before making such comments again. Hex is easily bad enough.

Also Lore... the HS is quite high there and I don't wanna be yelled at if a full evaluation of his villainy leads to his removal from this trope. We seem quite focused on this conversation topic all of the sudden and I'd like to remind everyone it's not the purpose of either thread to merge them as frequently as possible.

Edited by 43110 on Apr 14th 2022 at 4:04:19 AM

Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#73775: Apr 14th 2022 at 1:04:24 PM

[up] I’m not saying that. I’m just saying the trope is YMMV for a reason. Like, I don’t consider Jonah Hex an MB, because I think he’s too heroic. And Taurus Bulba is rotten to the core, but I eat that shit up.

I agree that oftentimes CM villains are too sadistic, deluded, and/or cowardly to qualify. But if the only problem is that a villain causes a lot of destruction and death with no regrets? That could easily be said about several villains who unambiguously are MB material.

Edited by Critica7 on Apr 14th 2022 at 1:12:38 AM

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