During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Juste.
I distinctly remember several SMT villains proposed but what about Persona? I know Adachi and Izunami are no gos from Persona 4, but what about 3 and 5? And does Igor count from the series proper. Sorry, I've only played P4 and a little bit of 3. I'm going with a yes to Juste.
Edited by Klavice on Aug 10th 2020 at 1:03:41 AM
Here are the modified versions of Banner and Reagan's writeups:
- Yu-Gi-Oh! GX Fan Fic Agents of Light
: Professor Lyman Banner is even more cunning and devious than canon. Seeking the power of the Sacred Beasts to create the Philosopher's Stone, Banner teams up with Kagemaru. Hiding his allegiance with the Shadow Riders from Duel Academy, Banner orchestrated the disappearance of several students, including Atticus. Needing Jaden for his strong duel energy, Banner foils every attempt the protagonists make to get him expelled. Manipulating a group of students into reviving Jinzo into the human world, he makes a deal with Jinzo to kill the protagonists, Banner lures Ghassan into a cave and holds his soul hostage to blackmail Scott and Damian into dueling Zane. Anticipating that one of them would come after him, Banner fakes his death at Jinzo's hands and leaves Jinzo behind to kill Damian. Being defeated by Zane, Banner reveals that Camula has been watching them the whole time, revealing the true method of reviving the Sacred Beasts to her, Banner calmly blackmails all of them before gracefully accepting his death.
- Extracurricular Activities (2019): Reagan Collins is a charming straight-A student, believing that he is making the world a better place by killing parents he deems irredeemable. Moonlighting as a peer counsuler to avoid any suspicion, Reagan sets up a business at his school where he sets up "accidents" to kill his clients parents in exchange for a portion of the insurance money. He causes the Wallace parents death by programming their SUV's computer system to disable the breaks upon exceeding the speed limit, and causes Mr. Mulnick to have a fatal reaction by tricking him into drinking beer while he is on his UTI medication. Killing the Vaughans after tricking them by mixing death cap mushrooms with their regular ones and killing Grant's parents by accurately timing a tree to blow up on them. Detective Dawkins noticing the pattern, Reagan foils all of his attempts to expose him. In the climax, Reagan uses Molly to lure Dawkins into a trap where he tricks a cop into fatally shooting Dawkins and switches out the recording of the murder solicitation with a music player.
Shit I missed those, one sec.
Also I'll get a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure page going... anyone got a quote/description they'd like?
Edited by 43110 on Aug 10th 2020 at 1:35:59 PM
Sure from Kira.
Theirs the simple
There has never been any problem that I, Yoshikage Kira, was unable to overcome
Or may be
For as long as I can remember I've done everything in my power to live a productive life that allows me to pursue a lasting inner peace. This may be a foreign concept, but I choose not to concern my self with winning or losing, life's troubles, or enemies who bring sleepless nights. That is how I cope with this backwards life we find ourselves living. It's what brings me happiness in a world fraught with hardship and misery. Of course, if I were ever to engage in combat, I would win the battle without question.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 10th 2020 at 12:40:34 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Speaking of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Awesomekid still has those three Jojo candidates on their to-do list, and just reminding them here so that they won't forgotten about them
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 9th 2020 at 10:26:05 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI'd rather go with the first. It's shorter but I find the latter better for They Look Just Like Everyone Else!
'Yes' to Juste
I'm all for either Kira quote, but like 43, prefer the first—it's short, sweet, and very much to the point. Other possibilities would be this one:
- "I call it Killer Queen: Bite the Dust. It acts independently to protect me. If you tell anyone about me, it automatically destroys them and rewinds time. It's killed someone already, right?...It must have been that meddler, Kishibe Rohan...Bite the Dust would trigger, he'd be blown apart, and then time would revert, and the only thing that changes in the new timeline is that Rohan is guaranteed to die! That's the true power of my Killer Queen: Bite the Dust! Good work, Rohan was especially troublesome to me! Well then, I'd better be off to work, to make the money that makes my precious family happy!"
Or this one:
- "My Killer Queen: Bite the Dust is unbeatable! It will kill anyone you decide to rat me out to. Even if you just write it, even if you are questioned, Bite the Dust will trigger! Now, if Rohan was here, a few others will be by to question you shortly. Be sure to kill them for me, would you? My little land mine. Don't worry, Bite the Dust will never harm you, don't think about it and just enjoy your schoolboy life. Well, I'm off, have fun at school!"
Ooooooor this one:
- "If time has looped four times, it means at least four of my enemies are destined to die at the hands of my Bite the Dust!...Who did you off for me? Was Koichi one of them?...What about Kujo Jotaro? I'd be quite pleased to hear of his demise. I guess I'll find out in a few minutes, won't I?...Once I've confirmed their deaths, I'll cancel Bite the Dust! Bite the Dust is unbeatable! Fate has sided with Yoshikage Kira!"
All are longer, of course, so the length might be a turn-off, but just more possibilities for y'all to consider.
Heeeeere's my write-ups, btw!
- Transformers: Prime:
- Soundwave is Megatron's most trusted operative, an oft-silent head of Decepticon communications who uses his position to spy on friend and foe alike to further the Decepticon's cause. Regularly thwarting attempts to overthrow Megatron with both tactical surveillance and physical might, Soundwave is always on standby to supply Decepticon troops with transportation and strategic schemes, serving as the primary source of Decepticon victories. Always taking the most pragmatic ways to accomplish his goals, Soundwave contrasts fellow lieutenants Starscream and Airachnid's sadism and cruelty with his own brand of cold efficiency, often forgoing outright physical confrontations in favor of just teleporting entire armies of enemies out of his way. Even when captured and threatened with torture and interrogation by the Autobots, Soundwave just mocks his captors before wiping his own hard drives, fully willing to perish to ensure Decepticon victory.
- Shockwave is the head scientist of the Decepticons, dictating his actions based not on personal feelings, but on logic and greatest chances for success. Established immediately as Starscream's far more competent, threatening rival, Shockwave survives an attempt by Starscream to leave him for dead, instead fully repairing himself and his lab of his own construction using nothing but ruins of Cybertron. Upon finding his way to Earth back into the Decepticon fold, Shockwave quickly proves his usefulness in furthering the groups' schemes, as he creates and unleashes Predaking, outwits the Autobots in retrieving Decepticon artifacts, and even concocts the final plan of the Decepticons in the series, adapting materials from a freak accident to reform Cybertron and return it to prosperity. As efficient physically as mentally, Shockwave thrashes any opponents he faces personally, and cements his status as a truly impressive Decepticon when he singlehandedly convinces the Predacons to fight Unicron alongside the Autobots for the good of Cybertron.
- Spider-Man 2: Dr. Otto Octavius is a brilliant, charming scientist defined by tragedy and obsession. An inspiration to young scientists with his work on nuclear fusion, Octavius' life is turned upside down when one of his experiments fails, leading to the death of his beloved wife Rosie and the fusing of his robotic, AI-controlled arms to his spine. Tempted by his arms into embracing his ego and desire to see the fusion experiment replicated, Octavius becomes "Doctor Octopus," supervillain extraordinaire, and pulls off a successful bank heist by using hostages to throw the police and Spider-Man off his tail. Needing more tritium to complete his experiment, Octavius strikes a deal with Harry Osborn for tritium in exchange for Spider-Man, who Octavius captures by kidnapping Mary Jane Watson to lure him out, then sabotaging a train so as to force Spider-Man to weaken himself saving the passengers. Octavius ultimately succeeds in his new fusion experiment, however realizes it's not worth it for the human lives it will cost, and works with Spider-Man to destroy the machine forever, sacrificing himself in the process with his final words being a refusal to die as a monster.
- Kara No Kyoukai OVA anime film series: Souren Araya is the true mastermind of the events of the story, orchestrating events and manipulating fallible, talented people to his will. Inserting himself into the lives of impressionable teenagers with potential for immense power, Araya grants them their greatest desires while turning them into tools he uses as obstacles in Shiki Ryougi's path. Planning to steal Shiki's body so as to use her "Mystic Eyes of Death Perception" for his own goals, Araya concocts the Ogawa apartment massacre to both test his powers and to lure Shiki into a successful trap. Araya uses the psychopathic Cornelius Alba as his stooge, keeping the lunatic pacified and under control to further his schemes, and later quickly and efficiently kills Touko Aozaki when she tries to interfere. Ultimately driven by a life of witnessing needless death and pain, Araya plans to wipe out all life on Earth while preserving records of each and every death in history in his memory to give them "purpose," and, even when beaten and dying, Araya proudly stands by his beliefs that he was trying to preventmisery, and hoping to honor every death to ever occur.
- Batman: The Telltale Series: Sins of the Father tie-in comic: Floyd Lawton, aka Deadshot, is a wealthy military contractor seeking vengeance against the Wayne name for his horrific childhood. Scarred by a past of tragedy, Lawton witnessed his cherished older brother be murdered at the hands of their abusive parents, going on to avenge his sibling by coldly murdering his parents and getting away with it at the age of fourteen. In adulthood, Lawton learns that his parents were enabled and kept out of law enforcement's eyes by Thomas Wayne, and, blaming the long-dead man and his living associates for his brother's death, Lawton becomes the assassin "Deadshot." Beginning to track down and systematically murder all of Wayne's former compatriots, Deadshot confronts and outwits Batman himself with several traps and decoys, and even kidnaps the man's butler, Alfred, to use as a hostage. Planning to force Batman to either kill him or let the hostage associates of Thomas Wayne die, Deadshot can only express respect and acceptance for Batman when beaten, simply moving on to join a government task force for an early release from prison with a smile.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 10th 2020 at 6:23:00 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
