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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#24401: Aug 2nd 2020 at 10:09:24 AM

Red Hood: Just be happy I only killed one of them. They're all assassins.
Batman: And what are you?
Red Hood: I'm cleaning up Gotham. More than you ever did.
Batman: You're stealing territory from Black Mask and killing anyone who gets in your way.
Red Hood: Black Mask is just a part of the plan.
Batman: Plan? You're becoming a crime lord.
Red Hood: Yes. You can't stop crime. That's what you never understood. I'm controlling it. You wanna rule them by fear. But what do you do with the ones who aren't afraid? I'm doing what you won't: I'm taking them out!
  • Fullmetal Alchemist franchise:
    • Original Manga and Brotherhood:
      • Solf J. Kimblee is the "Crimson Lotus Alchemist" and a devious, cunning former Major in the Amestrian military. Ostensibly imprisoned for war crimes in Ishval after he purloined a powerful Philosopher's Stone, Kimblee showed both cruelty and compassion in the conflict, killing civilians a fellow soldier had spared before helping the soldier up and reminding him of their duty in the military. Released from jail to assist in Father's scheme, Kimblee shows ingenuity in his tactics: coercing protagonist Edward "Ed" Elric into assisting him; evading an attempt to assassinate him; and later causing the deaths Father needs by convincing an enemy nation he means to assist their attack on Amestris' Briggs fortress, only to lure them into a trap and use their blood for Father's ritual. Even after being devoured by Pride, Kimblee's spirit returns when the Homunculus attempts to cowardly forego his own haughty and boastful principles to take over Ed's body, forcing Pride to meet his fate while tipping his hat to Ed, happily seeing that the victory goes to the one with the strongest convictions.
      • Lieutenant General Grumman is the silly, seemingly harmless commanding officer of East City who masks a truly ruthless ambition. Introduced congratulating Roy Mustang for finally breaking Grumman's winning streak of nearly a hundred victories in chess, Grumman later becomes Mustang's benefactor in scheming a coup against the Amestris high command, using his troops to deliver messages and even successfully disguising himself as an elderly woman to fool potential spies. Grumman baits Fuhrer King Bradley into a trap that incapacitates him for the coming coup, only to then leave Mustang to handle the invasion of Amestris all by himself, planning to swoop in and paint himself as a hero should Mustang fail, thereby securing his own promotion and framing Mustang as a traitor in the process. Even when Mustang pulls off the coup, Grumman's tactical genius enables him to secure the position of Fuhrer for himself for years to come, during which he keeps tabs on potential enemies while nonetheless looking forward to the exciting future to come.
    • 2003 Anime: The Ishbalan only known as "Scar" used to live normally until the Amestrian military instituted a genocide against his people. Years later, Scar decides to take revenge on state alchemists, who decisively ended the conflict, while crossing paths with Edward and Alphonse Elric, constantly fighting with and sparing them, eventually even bonding with them, especially Alphonse, as they remind him of his past. Discovering the real nature of his arm as an incomplete Philosopher's Stone, Scar decides to he needs to destroy the state military and travels to the war-torn city of Lior, where he leads and protects the civilians, creates a city-wide transmutation symbol and tricks the Amestrian soldiers to their deaths with the help of Lust, a Homunculus who is the human transmutation of his brother's dead lover, while the civilians evacuate. A survivor determined to succeed, Scar uses his last moments to save Alphonse and finish the transmutation, dying while thinking about the Elric brothers, his brother and his own guilt.

  • Fall of Cthulhu: The Harlot, the Humanoid Abomination that serves as the Keeper of Secrets, was once a mortal human named Fastrada who took on the role of Keeper to save the life of her daughter. The Harlot knows nearly every secret in reality, and demands prices for those who barter with her for her knowledge, anything from precious memories to their very sanity. The Harlot schemes against the wicked Nyarlathotep and gives Cy Morgan the knowledge of the one thing that can vanish Nyarlathotep—the invocation of his true name—and waits until the crucial moment of Nyaralthotep's victory to reveal this, utterly derailing the Crawling Chaos' sprawling plan and sending him screaming back to Azathoth. The Harlot trains master thief Lucifer to become her successor, and even when the position of Keeper of Secrets is briefly usurped from her, the Harlot manages to see the thief slain by Lucifer and passes away as Fastrada, at absolute peace with herself.
  • Witchblade series:
    • The Curator is the Sole Survivor of the destruction of old universe. Filled with grief over losing his family, Curator started working on a plan to bring his universe back by destroying the new one. Taking the form of an elderly man, he manipulates events so that he can bring all 13 ancient artifacts to him. After doing so, he sets his plan in motion in Artifacts by gathering a team of villains who wielded half of the artifacts and kidnapping Jackie Estacado's, the wielder of The Darkness, and Sara Pezzini's, the wielder of Witchblade, daughter Hope, who was the last "component" in his plan to recreate his universe. Capturing most of the remaining wielders and getting all of the artifacts, he playfully talks with Hope about his motives and shows his belief that his actions will bring about a better world. In the end, Curator succeeds in wiping out the universe, only being stopped from killing Hope by Jackie managing to recreate the universe and kill the Curator before his plan could even begin.
    • Tales of the Witchblade, by Christina Z.:
      • Issues 3 & 4: Selena Lauren is a former police officer, who was turned into a sex-crazy outlaw. After being arrested for coercing men into illegal acts through narcotic therapy, Selena took over downtown New York, protecting its inhabitants from arrest and granting them their wildest fantasies by connecting them to her Witchblade. After agreeing to help Detective John Chimu to solve the brutal murders in exchange for full amnesty, Selena effortlessly puts all the clues together and predicts who will be the next victim. Revealing the name of the killer to Chimu, as well as her origin as one of the test subjects of Sustain drug, Selena assist him in tracking the killer down and then offers him to live by her side, before she uses his computer to assume the role of a detective.
      • Issue 6: Samantha is a former slave taken by the Romans from her family when she was a little girl. Enduring their abuse and then escaping from them, Samantha found the Witchblade and was trained by druids, before she decided to return to her hometown. Finding out that her father tried to organize the resistance, only to be captured by Romans and the townspeople cheering during his execution, Samantha created a plan and easily manipulated both the Roman army and townspeople into slaughtering each other. Forming a genuine friendship with a woman named Cecilia, Samantha tried to save her by telling her to run away, only to find her dying later, leading to Samantha revealing her motivations and crying over her death.
  • The Chronicles of Riddick: Richard B. Riddick is the deadliest and last survivor of the Furyan race. An adept, brutal killer and Knife Nut, Riddick has killed scores of people with traps and anything that could conceivably be used as a weapon, and escaped from so many maximum security prisons that bounty hunters follow him like flies and usually end up dead by his hands. Riddick is also far more cunning than he appears, being able to pick up on details in whatever environment he finds himself in and frequently manipulates or tricks others to his benefit. Despite his nature, Riddick has several standards he holds himself to, primarily refusing to harm innocent people, and values the bonds he has with those few who survive long enough to befriend him. Riddick even manages to defeat the holy undead Lord Marshal of the Necromongers by forcing him into an unwinnable situation and take over his entire empire. Riddick's main goal is to be left alone, with those who cross him soon wishing they hadn't.
  • Don't Hang Up (2016): "Mr. Lee" is a mysterious hacker who centers in on Sam Fuller, Brady Mannion and their fellow prank caller friends Jeff Mosley and Roy. Having stalked them over a year, Lee knows all their secrets and weaknesses, using a video of Brady's parents held hostage and killing Roy and Mosley to prove how serious he is while taking control of their electronics and internet. Having already killed Brady's parents, Lee plays the boys against one another by revealing Brady was sleeping with Sam's girlfriend Peyton Greer, switching locations with Mosley's body to ambush Brady, masking him in Lee's outfit and trick Sam into killing him. Lee then reveals the four friends' infamous prank call was to Lee's house, resulting in Lee's wife shooting their young daughter by mistake before killing herself, ending as Lee kills Peyton and frames Sam for everything while escaping.
  • Grizzly Park: Ranger Bob initially leads a group of delinquents in an effort to clean Grizzly Park in the hope of rehabilitating them. Upon discovering that some of the delinquents he is supervising got off lightly for more heinous crimes, Bob tries to get them to learn from their misdeeds, only to be ignored. When the delinquents continue to act disruptively, Bob sets a grizzly bear on the delinquents, eliminating them one at a time before comforting the Final Girl when he finds her. Later overhearing her bragging she fooled him, as well as contemplating Bob's murder, Bob sets the bear on her, before framing an escaped convict for the deaths that the bear caused.
  • From the New World: The monster rat Squealer plays the part of a smug coward while plotting the downfall of the bigoted Kamisu 66 village. Having the psychic heroes Saki Watanabe and Satoru Asahina help him defend against an attacking monster rat colony, Squealer goes on to overthrow his psychotic queen and creates a technologically advanced democratic society. Absorbing other rat colonies into his, Squealer uses another meeting with Saki and Satoru ostensibly to find their friends but takes the opportunity to take in another colony and steal a psychic child to raise to fight against humans who cannot use their powers on another human. Launching his attack on Kamisu, Squealer nearly wipes his enemy out and even when caught, reveals monster rats' history as mutated humans and remains defiant until the moment a pain-inducing parasite takes over his brain, his plight touching enough for Saki to personally end his misery.
  • To Welcome Oblivion: Father Peter Grallman, leader of the Cthulhian cult, is the founder of the Old Brotherhood, and a charismatic and genuine personality who truly seeks to give his followers the chance to revive their unduly-deceased loved ones. Grallman's descent into evil, starting with the murder of his beloved little sister Marissa, was authored by Nyarlathotep, who assumes Grallman to be a disposable pawn. Far from 'disposed of,' Grallman allies with the heroes, secretly manages to make a deal with Cthulhu himself, and allows the Great Old One into his body to personally beat down Nyarlathotep. Grallman throws Nyarlathotep into a shrieking, indignant Villainous Breakdown, exploiting the god's tendency to gloat to exploit a fatal vulnerability while ensuring the heroes themselves managed to make it out alright, and peacefully sacrifices himself while making sure the final thing Nyarlathotep sees is his triumphant smile.

  • Slade Wilson, aka Deathstroke, starts out as Oliver Queen's friend and mentor before becoming one of his most dangerous enemies. Vowing to drive Oliver to despair after their friendship falls apart, Slade, as the Big Bad of Season 2, is re-introduced as The Man Behind the Man to Brother Blood and Isabel Rochev, using the former to mass-produce Mirakuru, and having the latter usurp Oliver's company, all for Slade's purpose of exacting revenge on his former friend. Targetting Oliver's loved ones, Slade reveals Thea's true parentage, exposes Oliver's identity to Laurel, and murders Oliver's mother Moira, showing respect for her courage as he does so, all for the sake of tormenting Oliver. Unleashing a Mirakuru-empowered army to lay waste to Starling City as his masterstroke, Slade nearly succeeds in killing Oliver before being defeated. Even after reconciling with Oliver, Slade loses none of his edge, manipulating enemies and allies alike to achieve his goals. A dangerously cunning Implacable Man, Slade, whether ally or enemy to Oliver, is one of Arrow's most dynamic and capable characters.

The Flash (2014)

  • Leonard "Lenny" Snart aka "Captain Cold" is a world-class thief from Central City who masterminds his jobs with utmost precision. When Barry Allen aka The Flash foils one of his heists, Snart quickly adjusts his strategies to a new level and emerges victorious with the cold gun and the target he first failed to steal in his hands. Forming the Rogues with Mick Rory and his sister Lisa, Snart proves himself to be a formidable nemesis to the Team Flash, whether it is by kidnapping Caitlin to force The Flash to make his existence public, threatening Cisco's brother Dante to make him reveal Barry's identity, or manipulating Barry into erasing his criminal records and then double-crossing him to free the metahuman prisoners. With his more noble side, and his sarcastic charm stealing every scene he appears in, Leonard Snart remains one of the most memorable characters of the show.
  • Gorilla Grodd is one of the Flash's most persistent and dangerous enemies. A meta-gorilla with formidable psychic powers and an intellect easily capable of keeping pace with the Fastest Man Alive, Grodd regularly overwhelms the Flash when they meet, nearly killing him several times. Upon being exiled to Earth-2's Gorilla City, Grodd manipulates the Flash into helping him conquer the city and lead a gorilla army in a near-successful attack on Central City. Even when stranded in the past, Grodd excels, forming a cult centered around him and making another near-successful bid for world domination. Grodd later orchestrates a plot to mind-control all of Central City, proving both his valour and his ingenuity when this leads to a battle with King Shark, nearly defeating his much larger and more powerful foe, and again coming to within a hair's breadth of victory. After having time to reflect on his past deeds, Grodd proves capable of change, realizing the error of his ways and working with the Flash to get what he's always truly wanted: a life of peace. Capable of outwitting the few foes his immense strength can't overwhelm, Grodd stands out as one of the Flash's most powerful and compelling antagonists.
  • "Duet": The Music Meister is a being of unknown origins, who seeks to teach Kara and Barry a lesson regarding love. First appearing in "Star-Crossed", he allows himself to be captured by the DEO, in order to put Kara in a trance and then escapes to Earth-1. Arriving at Star Labs, the Music Meister easily takes out Wally West, and traps Barry in the same dream as Kara. There he informs them that if they die in it they die in real life, and gives them vague instructions on how to escape. Revealed to be draining their powers, he uses them to try to rob a bank to draw the other heroes out and is constantly changing powers through the fight to keep them on their toes. Allowing himself to be captured again, the Music Meister gives Mon-El and Iris hints to save the two heroes before they die. The Music Meister ends the episode revealing it was all a Secret Test of Character, and calming singing "Put a Little Love in Your Heart" while he leaves.

  • The A-Team: General Hunt Stockwell, from season 5, has the distinction of being the first and only person to capture the A-Team and actually make it stick. Putting them on trial under the pretense of getting them exonerated for the "crime they didn't commit", Stockwell instead controls the trial from behind the scenes in order to not only have them found guilty, but also to escalate the charges so they're sentenced to death, only allowing them to escape at the end so he can recruit them now that they have no choice left but to work for him. With the team under his employ, Stockwell proves himself to be something of a Bad Boss who, though ostensibly on the side of American prosperity and world peace, also has no problems using people to accomplish his goals, withholding vital information when it serves his purposes, and treating all of his operatives and even himself as expendable.

  • Tales from the Crypt: With its heavy twist-based format, some characters in this EC Comics-based series show themselves as truly ingenious masterminds.
    • "The Sacrifice'': Gloria Fielding and her secret lover Jerry Jasper arranged for Gloria to marry rich dullard Sebastian Fielding, while directing the easily-influenced James to Sebastian so Gloria could seduce him. Luring him into murdering her husband, Gloria fakes not knowing Jasper who "blackmails" James to have sex with Gloria whenever he wishes. Consumed by guilt, James eventually kills himself with a note taking the blame that Gloria burns, she and Jasper complimenting one another on his brilliant planning and her brilliant acting before heading off.
    • "Two for the Show": Officer Fine centers in on the ostensible protagonist when he murders his unfaithful wife Emma and places the pieces of her body in a suitcase. Fine manipulates him, making him panic while promising that teams of agents will arrive to search the bags. After he disposes of the suitcase and switches tags, it turns out that Fine left an identical bag on the train with the corpse of his own wife, who was having the affair with Emma, framing someone else for his crime and escaping scott-free.
    • "Comes the Dawn": Corporal Jeri Drumbeater lives a solitary life in Alaska when Colonel Parker and his right-hand Burrows show up, desiring her help for illegal poaching. When she learns Parker unknowingly shelled her unit in Desert Storm, Jeri lures the two into the local nest of vampires who serve her, her own poisonous blood inedible to them. Jeri attempts to turn Burrows against Parker, while also withholding the vital fact that the sun the far north in Alaska will not rise for another two months just in case one believes he has escaped.
    • "Fatal Caper": Fiona Havisham is the beautiful lawyer for the Amberson family. When old Mycroft Amberson has it in his will that his disowned child Frank must be found before he seemingly dies, Fiona plays his sons Justin and Evelyn against one another, clandestinely working with Mycroft to eliminate them. When Mycroft tries to seduce her after, Fiona reveals she is "Frank", actually a transgender woman who transitioned after being disowned, before having Mycroft executed with her partner in crime to inherit the fortune.
    • "A Slight Case of Murder": Mrs. Trask is an aspiring murder writer who bounces ideas off her callous neighbor, bestselling mystery writer Sharon Bannister. To get real life research for her own book, she fakes letters from Sharon to her son to lure the man into falling for her, making it look like Sharon is having an affair to her jealous husband, poisons the cookies she sends her son to take over and sets them all against one another to eliminate themselves while remaining totally free of suspicion, ending by taking Sharon's latest manuscript for herself.
    • "Escape": Major Nicholson is a British officer disgusted by the venal, treacherous POW Luger after Luger leads his own companions into a trap in exchange for reward. Sneaking a British spy into the prison camp and letting Luger see manufactured coffins while also placing a survivor of Luger's treachery nearby to panic him, Nicholson ensures the desperate Luger places himself into his grasp just when the war has ended so Nicholson will not have to endure releasing him, having decided Luger is "definitely worth a bullet".

  • The Elder Scrolls franchise:
    • Hermaeus Mora is the Daedric Prince of knowledge whose monstrous, formless appearance belies a mind possibly more cunning than any other Daedric Prince in existence. Constantly seeking to hoard knowledge of all sorts to fill the shelves of his arcane library Apocrypha through gambits atop of gambits, Mora bargains with servitors seeking Mora's secrets, rewarding those who are earnest and horribly punishing those who renege on his gifts. in the Dragonborn expansion to Skyrim, Mora realizes his current servant, the Dragonborn Miraak, is attempting to betray him, Mora executes a plan to manipulate the Last Dragonborn into killing and replacing him, simultaneously using them to wrest the long-held secrets of the Skaal by refusing to grant them the last Word of Power necessary to defeat Miraak until they do so. Ultimately, Mora ends up completely untouchable in the end, musing that all the Last Dragonborn has and will do is according to his grand design.
    • Morrowind: "Gentleman" Jim Stacey is the leader of the Morrowind Thieves' Guild and seeks to expands his organization's influence in a xenophobic nation. A charismatic and quick thinking master thief, he fights back against his criminal rivals the Camonna Tong and their Fighter's Guild puppets by cleansing the latter of its corrupt leadership. Using bribery and blackmail to turn a few leaders to his side, he eventually organizes the assassination of the Fighter's Guild leader to ensure to the Tong is too weak to further target his people. Outside of such dirty business, Stacey shows his softer side by reviving the Bal Molagmer order to aid the less fortunate in Vvardenfell, while also improving his guild's image in the eyes of the common people. Between stealing valuables for overtaxed peasants and giving them lands deeds to save their homes, he uncovers corruption in many of the higher echelons of dark elf society, and he ultimately retires content with the future of his guild ensured.
    • Oblivion: The Gray Fox is the leader of the Cyrodiil Thieve's Guild and a mysterious rogue whose plans and identity are hidden behind the ancient Gray Cowl of Nocturnal. Known only in rumors and hearsay to commoners, he ensures his guild's secrecy by caring for the homeless and using them as spies and only offering membership to criminals who pass cleverly devised trials. In reality Count Umbranox of Anvil cursed by the Cowl with eternal anonymity, he masterminds the ultimate heist of one of the Elder Scrolls themselves. He first organizes his guard captain nemesis reassigned to protect his countess wife and uses a magical crystal he had stolen to spy on the Imperial Palace. Using this information, he flawlessly plans the heist to allow his accomplice to sneak into the palace through a forgotten tunnel and even be handed one of the scrolls under a guise. Ultimately revealed to have planned the heist not out of glory, the Gray Fox uses the Elder Scroll to undue his curse and reunite with his beloved wife.
    • Skyrim: Karliah Indoril was once the co-leader of the Skyrim Thieves' Guild alongside her lover Gallus, but was framed into exile for his death by his real murdered, Mercer Frey. Thriving in exile, she first tries to cut off the guild from their financial support, Black-Briar Meadery, by cutting off honey supplies and even funding a rival meadery for competition. These plans foiled by a rising thief, Karliah tricks them and Mercer to a ruin wherein she tricks Mercer into confessing and turns the new thief to her side. Having Gallus's journal translated from a cipher, she reveals Mercer's betrayal to the rest of the guild and shows herself to be a Nightingale, an agent of Nocturnal, and seeks to retrieve the stolen Skeleton Key from Mercer. Leveraging the souls of her fellows into Nocturnal's service as new Nightingales, Karliah has them help her track down and kill Mercer, return the Skeleton Key to her mistress to regain her standing, and ultimately reunite with her lover's spirit one last time.
  • Ghost of Tsushima: Tomoe the archer is the former student of the famed Sadonobu Ishikawa. A born killer and brilliant archer, Tomoe won her way into the Mongol ranks when taken hostage by teaching them archery and leading their forces when Ishikawa tries to hunt her down, targeting strategic locations to attack his hometown of Hyoshi Springs. Ruining the reputation of Ishikawa and hero Jin Sakai by targeting travelers and framing them, Tomoe later sides with the heroes to eliminate the Khan's archers she trained, using Jin and Ishikawa as cover to destroy them to slip away during the fighting and flee to the mainland, leaving behind a final note for Ishikawa on their history together and her gratitude as his pupil.
  • Watch_Dogs:
    • Raymond Kenney is a genius software engineer hired by Blume Corporation to create Central Operating System (CTOS). When Raymond learns of the corporation's plan to use CTOS to spy on people and control their lives, he hacks CTOS to show everyone the dangers of relying it, causing the Northeast blackout of 2003 and the deaths of eleven people. Going into hiding in Chicago and taking the alias Theodore "T-Bone" Grady, Raymond allies with Aiden Pearce, helping him rescue his sister from Damien Brenks, dismantle Lucky Quinn's human trafficking ring, and shut down CTOS when Brenks hijacks it. Upon learning that JB Markowicz, aka Default, has sent fixers to kill Raymond in the "Bad Blood" DLC, Raymond tracks him down and turns Default's own trap against him, killing Default. Resuming his crusade against Blume in the sequel, Raymond goes to San Fransisco and recruits Marcus Halloway and his friends to his cause while tasking them with dangerous missions to gain more followers, turning them into a genuine threat to Blume and allowing them to expose the corruption of their Chief Technology Officer, Dusan Nemec, leading to Nemec's arrest.
    • Jordi Chin is a witty yet professional fixer hired by Aiden Pearce to track down Maurice Vega, the man who killed Aiden's niece. Finding Maurice Vega at a baseball stadium and killing his men, Jordi stages the scenario like a gang-shooting before calling the police, distracting everyone while he and Aiden escape and take Maurice with them. When Jordi learns that someone survived their attack and can identify them, he has Aiden infiltrate the prison the witness is being held in to silence him. Jordi eventually betrays Aiden after receiving a contract to kill him, though he does reveal Maurice's location after surviving their scuffle. Appearing in the DLC for the sequel, "Human Conditions", Jordi teams up with DedSec hacker Marcus Holloway in tracking down the Russian Mob, Bratva. Tracking down Bratva's leader at a yacht, Jordi goes in to kill the leader, while pinning his murder on Marcus before escaping.

Batman: The Animated Series

  • Ra's al Ghul is an urbane, sophisticated rival of Batman aka Bruce Wayne and acknowledged by the latter as his greatest and most deadly adversary. Forming the worldwide, powerful League of Shadows, Ra's secretly tests Batman with a series of clever plots to determine if he is worthy to be his heir in the League and inherit Ra's own wish to save the planet. When Batman refuses, Ra's decides to enact a plan to wipe out most of humanity for the betterment of the world, and each time returns to drive Batman to his limits. Even after his seeming death, Ra's survives by ordering his daughter Talia, Bruce's onetime lover, to allow him to possess her body, so he may rejuvenate and possess Bruce himself in the future. Time and again, Ra's shows exactly why Batman himself calls him his greatest enemy.
  • Temple Fugate, the Clock King, starts out as an overly-punctual, high-strung businessman, but after a recommended schedule change by Hamilton Hill, Fugate's business crashed and burned, driving the man into a planned revenge scheme on Hill. Spending years concocting his plans, Fugate began a smear campaign against Mayor Hill, making his running of the city seem incompetent and useless before trying to kill Hill. When confronted by Batman, Fugate displays his exceptional fighting skills, going toe-to-toe with the Dark Knight and escaping him several times with ease. Later manipulating and assisting a scientist in the creation of a time-altering device, Fugate uses it to trap Batman and Robin in a time vortex for days, nearly succeeding in another attempt on Hill by seconds' time. In arguably his finest outing in The Batman Adventures, Fugate disguises himself so well that even Batman is fooled and rigs the Gotham mayoral elections to force Hill's expulsion from the mayoral office, getting away scot-free with it for months until only the combined ingenuity of Batman and Riddler discovers the truth.
  • Kyodai Ken, "the Ninja," is a former rival of Bruce Wayne's who now seeks payback against Wayne for exposing him as a thief to his martial arts clan years ago. Pulling off a string of highly successful sabotages against Wayne Enterprises, Kyodai bests Batman and Robin combat with the help of dirty tricks, and escapes at the end of his premiere episode with zero retribution for his crimes. Returning soon after, Kyodai kidnaps the star pupil of his former sensei to learn the location of a treasured scroll, pulling off the hostage exchange flawlessly even when Batman interferes. In his final confrontation with Batman, Kyodai reveals he has deduced his identity to be Bruce Wayne, and kidnaps Alfred to spur Batman into a hand-to-hand duel. Kyodai accepts his eventual defeat at the hands of the Dark Knight with honor even as he refuses the hero's help in surviving an exploding volcano, simply giving a humble bow to his rival as he is caught up in the volcano.
  • Batman: Mask of the Phantasm: The titular "Phantasm", Andrea Beaumont, is driven by both a passionate hatred for crime, and a desire for revenge for the death of her father. Arriving in Gotham in her Phantasm guise, Andrea begins picking off the mob bosses responsible for her father's death, scheduling a plane ride to bring her in later on publicly to divert suspicion from herself as the Phantasm. Using her old relationship with Bruce to deduce his identity as Batman, keep him from the truth and put him on a wild goose chase, Andrea targets The Joker as her next victim, sparing the madman only on Batman's request. Becoming a professional mercenary in The Batman Adventures, Andrea saves Batman several times from assassins and ingrains herself in criminal organizations just to take down the masterminds from within. In her final appearance in the DCAU, Andrea talks Amanda Waller herself out of carrying out a ruthless assassination, imploring her to respect the memory of Batman and be a more honorable person.

  • Batman: The Brave and the Bold:
    • The Joker is the self-proclaimed Clown Prince of Crime, depicted here as a far more affable, respectable nemesis to Batman than often portrayed. An energetic Wild Card who will happily team up with Batman to take down a greater threat—even saving the life of a small child in the process—Joker nonetheless considers himself a villain through-and-through, and pulls off a bevy of crimes with flourish and style. Joker's goofy exterior often throws off his opponents, allowing him to take down even the likes of Aquaman and Wonder Woman herself with ease, and his tactical intelligence flourishes in such instances as recommending a switch in enemies to his failing villain colleagues, or actually managing to fake his own death for decades then kill Batman in one possible Bad Future. With genuine respect to many of his fellow villains and even ready to sacrifice his own life to give one a morale boost, Joker stands out among Batman's Rogues Gallery with his hilarious, oddly personable attitude towards enemies and teammates alike.
    • The Riddler, real name Edward Nygma, is a brilliant puzzlemaster with an affinity for puns and outwitting his opponents. When one of Riddler's heists is thwarted by the arrogant Batwoman, Riddler baits and unmasks the hero due to her smug personality, and, when Batwoman tries to get revenge on Riddler years later, he outwits her yet again, nearly killing her and taking down Batman in the same move before being stopped. Returning in Scooby-Doo! & Batman: The Brave and the Bold, Riddler masterminds a diabolical scheme to create a deadly teleportation device. Kidnapping the Question and disguising himself as the hero to gain intel on the investigation into his crimes, Riddler fools even Batman himself with the disguise, all while using Clayface to pull off a variety of successful heists while giving him information on Batman's past that throws the hero off his game. Riddler ultimately finishes up the teleporter and escapes capture when exposed, nearly pulling off his criminal scheme in its entirety with ease.

  • Gravity Falls: Stanley "Stan" Pines, the Pines twins' money-grubbing "Grunkle", gradually proves over the series to be far more driven and intelligent than anyone could ever initially assume. The twin brother of the genius Stanford Pines, a long sibling rivalry between the two ended up with Stanley accidentally pushing Stanford through the latter's portal machine before they could reconcile. Desperate to save his brother, Stanley took Stanford's identity, turned his brother's isolated cabin into a tourist trap called "the Mystery Shack," and spends thirty years tracking down his brother's journals to reactivate the portal. A master of Obfuscating Stupidity, Stan pretends to be an oblivious conman to dissuade Dipper and Mabel, from investigating the dangerous supernatural phenomena of Gravity Falls, before giving up the act and taking out half a horde of zombies with his bare hands to protect them. Stan outwits almost everyone in the series, from his nefarious rival Gideon Gleeful to federal agents, and pulls his ultimate gambit by tricking the near-omnipotent demon Bill Cipher with a Twin Switch that allows Stan to destroy Bill. Stanley Pines is a man utterly devoted to his family, even if he has to ruthlessly manipulate his loved ones to save them.
  • The Spectacular Spider-Man: Spider-Man has had to take on quite a few intelligent masterminds with these standing above the crowd.
    • Green Goblin, Norman Osborn, is the ultimate villain that Spider-Man faces throughout the series. The mastermind behind many of the series' villains, Goblin consistently stays one step ahead of Spidey throughout the series, faking injuries and even death, unleashing various villains and criminals onto him as distractions, and framing his own son as the Goblin all to throw the hero off his scent. Outsmarting all the biggest crime bosses in New York in a fell swoop of manipulation to kickstart a gang war, Goblin moves in and takes control of the city's criminal element before using all his resources in a grand, final attempt at wiping Spider-Man off the map to leave the city for his rule. In his public guise, Osborn builds Oscorp Industries from the ground up, making it into a world-renowned organization, hires Chameleon to masquerade as him to avoid suspicion, and slowly tries to mold his son Harry into becoming a cruel monster like himself. At times a psychopathic, Laughing Mad supervillain, and at others a cold, ruthless businessman, Green Goblin was the most personal and most diabolical villain Spider-Man ever faced, standing in stark contrast to Tombstone's professional brilliance with his own brand of psychotic ingenuity and charm.
    • Dr. Otto Octavius was once the meek, milquetoast assistant to Norman Osborn, and created several supervillains with his scientific genius, but upon nearly dying in a lab accident and having his arms welded to him, becomes the genius, diabolical "Dr. Octopus." After his initial defeat by Spider-Man, Octopus grows smarter and more resourceful, creating the villainous team-up of "the Sinister Six", using them to beat Spider-Man to such a point that the hero flees for his life. A gentleman who is genuinely friendly with his fellow villains and willing to allow safe passage to innocent bystanders, Octopus takes over a chunk of New York's criminal underworld as the "Master Planner" from the luxury of a mental hospital he has manipulated himself into by pretending to be redeemed. Octopus's master plan is to take over the computer systems of every piece of technology in the world, and succeeds in doing so to Manhattan before being stopped by Spider-Man. A mastermind so brilliant that he ran rings around every other villain in the series at least once, Dr. Octopus is one of Spider-Man's greatest, most intelligent foes.
    • L. Thompson Lincoln, better known as "Tombstone," is the "Big Man" of crime in New York City, running all criminal activities with a flawless, business-like approach. Introduced after sending numerous supercriminals against Spider-Man, Tombstone calmly and charismatically offers to pay Spider-Man to look the other way for some of Tombstone"s activities, and frames the hero as a criminal when he refuses the offer. Displaying numerous moments of honorable qualities, be it helping to locate a bomb at one of his parties at the cost of his own life or even saving the lives of one of his closest henchmen, Tombstone is also an excellent Villain with Good Publicity, convincing the entire city that he is an upstanding, charitable man, despite his monstrous appearance. No situation catches Tombstone off guard for long, as he attempts to be the voice of reason when the Green Goblin starts a gang war, and even publicly assists Spider-Man in dueling numerous villains to keep up his appearance, only to then betray and attempt to murder the man once out of public eye. Unlike most every villain in the series, Tombstone gets off scot-free, easily paying his way out of prison and returning to his former seat of glory, with only surface-level damages to organization.
    • Black Cat, Felicia Hardy, is a charismatic, seductive thief who balances her criminal career with a genuine attraction for the heroic Spider-Man. Black Cat always goes out of her way to help Spider-Man in any way she can while simultaneously using him to further her own thrill-seeking ways, in one instance helping him to clear his name from a frame-up to serve as a cover while she swipes the mayor of New York's priceless tiger necklace under everyone's noses. Capable of infiltrating high security locations with minimal effort, Black Cat even breaks into the secure prison the Vault to free her imprisoned father, taking time during the rescue to concoct a scheme that quells a Prison Riot, and even when she grows to blame Spider-Man for her father being left behind in the prison, she jumps to his rescue and scares off the Green Goblin to save the webhead's life one last time.
  • Dice Funk: "Lorelei": Jem is a Half-Orc who believes that "sometimes you have to do bad to do good". Disgusted with how the upper class of Mykonos have abandoned the lower class and the Orc army her father serves in to die in the rising waters, Jem starts murdering the rich and powerful. Using her werewyvern powers to keep herself under suspicion, Jem successfully evades capture for months. Upon meeting the crew of the Violet One, Jem falls in love with Lavinia and through her quick thinking and use of her powers, helps everyone escape from the rioting townsfolk and steal a powerful scroll. Upon learning that the Orcs were killed by the Blackhearts, Jem travels to the mountains they were stationed at, recruiting the female relatives of the dead Orcs, and traps the Blackhearts in a cave. When Drop admits to causing the massacre of the Orcs, Jem challenges him to single combat, utilizing several clever strategies to battle the powerful monk. Upon losing, Jem accepts defeat and forgives them after Lavinia removes her lycanthropy.

Edited by 43110 on Aug 3rd 2020 at 3:15:50 PM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#24402: Aug 2nd 2020 at 10:15:16 AM

After rereading some Judge Dredd works i decided to give this a shot

What's the Work?

Dredd is a 2012 movie based on Judge Dredd franchise, which set in the future after nuclear apocalypse (as is the most of the franchise), the film follows the titular Judge Dredd and his assigned rookie Anderson, as they investigate the multiple homocide and get into the conflict with Ma-Ma's clan. Now, the movie had a bunch of sequels in form of comics, which were printed on Judge Dredd Megazine. Overall there was five arcs, with the final ending on Dredd trapped in the Dead dimension, after battle with Judge Death. While the villains of nearly all of the arcs are either too smug or vile, there is one i want to talk about, the character who was a minor character in the movie itself

Enter Clan Techie.

Who is Clan Techie?

Appearing in the movie as a slave to Ma-Ma, who appeared weak and cowardly and was forced to assist Ma-Ma in her schemes and attempts to wipe out Dredd and Anderson, before he was freed by them and run away, Techie reappers in 3 part comic arc "Furies", where he took the name Bill Huxley, created a family and started working in Robot Maintenance facility. There he was tracked down by Erinyes Crew, a gang of punk women, who wanted to use him for a heist. After he was contacted by them and they give him a way to tell them when he will be ready, he got in the middle of Dredd chasing down a criminal, who took him hostage, but Dredd kills that criminal and forces Techie to stay, as he searched across all database for anything "unclean" (as he says "Nobody stays clean"), before he let him go, which caused him to be late to work and be fired for it. Unable to tell his wife about it, Techie accepted a job from Erinyes Crew.

He efforetlessly opens them a way into the giant Penthouse, where they planned to steal a Pearl, leading to them killing the guards (something he didn't care about) and he was brought into the Penthouse to open them a door to a room, which holded a Pearl, which revealed to be a little girl. As he finds out, Pearl is the name of the girl, whose parents are very rich and Erinyes Crew planned to steal her and force her parents to pay for her return. Techie offered to carry her, only for the Judges to arrive and they were forced to go into the "Jungle part" of the Penthouse, where Techie hidden himself and wanted to let the girl go to the Judges. Unfortunately he was found out by Erinyes Crew, who knocked him down and dragged him with them to the sewers, as one of them was killed by Dredd.

As Judges follow them, Techie started to get the situation into his control, creating a navigation module and convincing the remaining Erinyes Crew to allow him to lead them out of the sewers. As he does so, they attempt to get rid of him, only for him to activate the robots nearby and have them rise from the wastes and attack Erinyes Crew, allowing him to escape and have the Erinyes Crew be pinned down by the Judges, as they find them due to gunfire. He carries Pearl into an office in the construction site and leaves her there to be found by people, before he stumbles upon a Judge, where he manages to come up with the convincing lie to pass himself as an innocent civilian and lead Judges to discover Pearl to bring her back to her parents, after which he texts to Erinyes Crew that he stole all their money and left already. As now powerless Erinyes Crew gets killed by Judges and Dredd discovers about Techie involment too late, Techie stands now with his newfound power, money and connections (from hacking and stealing all bank accounts of Erinyes Crew), intending to take care of his family from afar and pay for his son's treatment, saying that it doesn't matter that his money are not clean "Nothing in Mega City One was".

How's he operate?

I admit, in the movie he is a helpless victim of Ma-Ma, who was forced into crime and screamed when Judges found him, in comics though, he manages to become smarter and more cunning with each issue, while starting off as someone, who followed by a bad luck and unfortunes, in second issue he efforetlessly allows Erinyes Crew to infiltrate the Penthouse perfectly, with the last issue he efforetlessly manipulates Erinyes Crew, effectively lies to the Judge, and easily takes all whealth and connections of Erinyes Crew, while avoiding detection of the Judges (who now searching for him). So, i sorta argue that he "grows" into an MB and considering his circumstances, situation and his lack of strenght and combat skills, he leaves out of the plot with as much dignity as he can, never begging for mercy nor outplayed in the end.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

Okay, while he comes off as a good dude for Dredd's world, he still was willing to allow Erinyes Crew to rob the Penthouse and didn't care and give them the access to murder the people, who guarded the place. Also, he still ended up as an outlaw, who intended to live a life of crime to support his family with his "unclean" money. That said, he loves his family and detest murder, while immideatly deciding to abandon Erinyes Crew's scheme, when he found out that they wanted to kidnap and harm a child.

Conclusion?

What do you think?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#24403: Aug 2nd 2020 at 10:30:48 AM

Hmm... that's interesting, it's only in his final moments on panel where he's really in control enough to count but I'd argue it's nevertheless solid enough character development given his connections and resources are born of his hacking skills. Leaning yeah here on a character I never thought I'd see brought up here.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#24405: Aug 2nd 2020 at 10:42:12 AM

[tup] Clan techie. Someone who grows into it in the end, but I still feel ends it solidly as this trope.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#24406: Aug 2nd 2020 at 10:49:43 AM

Yes to Clan Techie. I like villains who gradually grow into this.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#24409: Aug 2nd 2020 at 10:57:35 AM

[tup] techie.

43, slight grammatical correction for Don't Hang Up: it should be

"Mr. Lee" is the mysterious hacker who centers in on Sam Fuller, Brady Mannion and their fellow prank caller friends Jeff Mosley and Roy.

Not, "Mr. Lee" is mysterious hacker...

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#24413: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:21:05 AM

I'll give a 'Yes' to Clan Techie, great find, Vile!

Alrighty, to go ahead and knock this one out and decide if he's a Keep or not....

What's the work?

Spider-Man 2 is the immensely successful, well-received second installment in Sam Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy, featuring the likes of Tobey Maguire, James Franco, Willem Dafoe and more in roles small and large.

In this flick, Spider-Man/Peter Parker has his usual personal problems going on, notably turmoil over the love of his life Mary Jane Watson getting married to someone else, and all of it ends up manifesting in his Spider powers going on the fritz and failing him. Terrible for time it, too, given the arrival of a new villain in town...

Who is Dr. Otto "Ock" Octavius? What makes him a candidate?

Dr. Otto Octavius, played by the ever-charming Alfred Molina, is an ingenious scientist dedicated to cracking the secret of the power of nuclear fusion, nearing completion of a machine that is capable of harnessing such power and creating a renewable, everlasting energy source.

Introduced to Peter Parker by his research's sponsor, Harry Osborn, Octavius at first is dismissive of Peter, noting that his old pal Curt Connors has referred to Peter as "Brilliant but Lazy," something Octavius finds utterly shameful. "Intelligence is not a privilege, it's a gift," Octavius tells Peter, however when Peter shows genuine interest in the fusion containment machine, Octavius happily spends hours chatting with the younger man alongside Otto's beloved wife Rosie, with Octavius even giving Peter advice on his buried love for Mary Jane.

At a demonstration for the fusion machine, Octavius dons a waistband with four large, metal tentacles attached, stating that he designed these to be able to handle and contain the nuclear fusion and better, and an inhibitor chip installed prevents the AI powering the tentacles to interfere with his own brainwaves.

Though the experiment at first proceeds well, something goes wrong and it begins going haywire, attracting all things metal to the ball of fusion in the middle of the machine and vaporizing them. Though trying to keep the audience calm, Octavius attacks Spider-Man when he arrives and tries to shut the machine down, but is distracted and horrified when Rosie ends up killed by a wall of glass shattering and flying into her due to the machine.

As Spidey unplugs the machine, it releases another wave of energy that fries into Octavius and knocks him out, simultaneously destroying the inhibitor chip.

Awakening later in the hospital after his tentacles—now fused to him—have massacred a lab staff trying to remove them, Octavius is mortified and flees to an old, abandoned warehouse, where he begins contemplating killing himself and his tentacles with him. However...the inhibitor chips gone, his tentacles begin speaking to him, coaxing him into continuing his experiment for the good of mankind. Though at first resistant, as he would have to resort to crime to obtain the funds for the construction of a newer, better fusion machine, Octavius ultimately proclaims "The real crime would be not to finish what we started".

Breaking into a bank vault and thrashing his way through security, Octavius—dubbed now "Doctor Octopus/Doc Ock"—quickly notices Spider-Man sneaking up on him and begins dueling the hero, using his surroundings, from bags of gold coins to car doors—to duel the hero until cops arrive on the scene. Quickly grabbing a nearby elderly woman—who just so happens to Spider-Man's Aunt May—as a hostage, Ock flees from the police up the side of a building, but is confronted again by Spider-Man.

Dropping Aunt May ("Butterfingers!") to distract Spider-Man as he saves her, Ock attacks him from behind and they continue their duel until Ock throws him across the street into another building. Ock grabs Aunt May once more and taunts Spider-Man that her death will be on the hero's conscience to goad him into leaping towards Ock across the buildings...as Ock reveals he has a hidden blade in one of his tentacles, and is ready to impale Spidey on it as soon as he reaches Ock.

Luckily, Aunt May being a total badass enables her to smash Ock's face with her umbrella, throwing his aim offpoint and letting Spidey dodge. Dropping Aunt May once more, Ock escapes as Spider-Man jumps to save her.

Eventually finishing his machine—coolly having his tentacles light him a cigar during its construction—Ock realizes he still needs the final, powering material, Tritium, which was supplied by Harry Osborn. Arriving at Osborn's apartment and swiping his beverage to sip from a tentacle, Ock requests more Tritium, dangling Harry off the side of the building when he responds by calling Ock a "hack".

Ock ends up striking a deal with Harry...bring Harry Spider-Man, alive, in exchange for more Tritium than ever before. Learning from Harry that Peter Parker takes pictures of Spider-Man, Ock quickly tracks down Peter having brunch with Mary Jane, and proceeds to kidnap Mary Jane, ordering Peter to find Spider-Man as he always does for pictures, and tell him to meet Ock at a clock tower at a set time, or MJ dies.

As Spidey arrives at the location, Ock duels him once more, their fight bringing them to a moving city train. Grabbing two hostages from the train and flinging them off to distract Spider-Man and test his desire to save innocents, Ock quickly moves to the front of the train, speeds it to max movement, and destroys the control panel, snarking "You have a train to catch!" before leaping off.

Spider-Man puts up the fight of his life to stop the train before it barrels off the tracks and kills everyone onboard, and manages to barely succeed, reduced to a exhausted, barely conscious mess. Ock proceeds to reveal he has been following the train and simply waiting until Spider-Man had worn himself out, and forces his way through the crowd of traingoers trying to protect the hero to capture him.

Once the deal with Harry goes smoothly, Ock completes his new fusion machine...when the hostage Mary Jane demands she be let go, Ock just notes that she'd bring the police and continues. Smirking when he once more realizes Spider-Man has snuck on-scene, Ock attacks him while he's trying to help MJ, boasting that his experiment has already been activated and can't be stopped.

Though Spider-Man seemingly beats Ock, when he helps MJ out of her restraints Ock attacks him from behind with a lead pipe and continues thrashing him. MJ sneaks up on Ock and tries to hit him with the same pipe, but Ock casually slaps her away with his tentacles, and has Spidey on the ropes until the hero grabs the power cords of the fusion reactor and shields himself with them when Ock tries to stab him, which sends electricity coursing through Ock and defeats him.

As Spidey realizes the machine isn't stopping even while unplugged, he approaches Ock and unmasks himself as Peter Parker, earning a smirk from Ock who notes once more "Brilliant but lazy," and though at first vehemently against the idea of turning the machine off, as it's his "dream" and life's work, Ock is convinced by Spider-Man that he needs to do the right thing and overcome his corrupting tentacles.

Ock, through sheer force of will shutting out the tentacles' protests to stopping the machine, tells Spider-Man that the only way to stop the machine is to drown it in the river beneath them. Stopping Spider-Man from trying it himself, Ock calmly states "I'll do it" and begins tearing down the supports, remarking with his last words "I will not die a monster" as the machine collapses and falls into the river...with the final shot of Ock being him slowly sinking to the bottom with the machine, even holding onto the machinery with one of his tentacles to drag himself down.

Is Ock magnificent?

Ock is considered one of the best comic book movie villains of all time for a reason. He's genuinely charming and kind before the accident, and keeps up a Faux Affably Evil attitude throughout the film, being an absolute joy to watch for his badassery, Large Ham boasts and zingers, and impressive wits.

Though lacking in traditional "masterminding" skills, Ock nonetheless is a quick-thinking and manipulative cephalopod. He uses Aunt May as a hostage to throw off Spidey and the police to pull off his bank robbery, develops an entirely new fusion machine all by his lonesome with his tentacles, makes a deal with Harry, uses MJ to force Peter to contact Spider-Man for a fight, exhausts Spidey with hostages and a runaway train during said fight then captures him, and completely succeeds in starting the fusion machine again, only stopping it thanks to a Heel–Face Turn.

Now, Ock's tentacles are obviously acting as The Corrupter to him and pushing him towards finishing his experiment, playing on his ego and grief to inspire him to restart the experiment, but I don't think there's an argument to be made that they're outright controlling and puppeteering Ock, tbh...they communicate with him mentally in ways the audience can't hear, but Ock isn't mindlessly agreeing with everything they're saying, nor has he become some form of zombie being used.

He genuinely back-and-forths with them in one scene, then spends the rest of the movie acting completely on his own, never showing duress or conflict with the tentacles and even using them for more personable, petty uses like lighting himself a cigar or swiping Harry's drink to sip, and at the end, he ultimately overcomes the tentacles when they try to refuse his orders to help Spider-Man drown the nuclear machine.

Ock loses himself in his villainy a bit, and Spider-Man remarks "you've allowed these things to twist you into something you're not", but in a trilogy of films that is very obvious and unsubtle with its "alterego controlling the victim" schtick, from Green Goblin to the Venom symbiote, Ock shows complete opposite personality features to, say, Goblin, retaining his true personality and snarkiness the whole way through the film, and ultimately overcoming his corrupting tentacles to save the day.

I think this is a case where it's fine that he's being corrupted and made to be less moral, as Ock is still onboard and happy to follow through for his "dream", and pulls off everything with his own ingenuity, and it isn't until he realizes the consequences of his crimes in full that he decides it isn't worth it and sacrifices himself.

Is Ock a bastard?

Indeed, even though Ock is the least malicious of the main villains of the films except maybe Sandman, he's still bad guy, threatening little old ladies and young women to get a one-up on Spider-Man, and even setting a train to derail and crash just to exhaust the hero. His fusion machine is also threatening all of New York which he seems totally fine with so long as he proves to himself it works and he didn't "miscalculate," but despite all this, Ock personally never outright kills anyone, and even when he outright notes that Mary Jane would get the police if he let her go before his experiment was done, he doesn't move to kill her or show any desire to, instead just keeping her chained until he succeeds.

Final Verdict?

Ock's a complex and tragic as hell baddie, and he's certainly being corrupted by his tentacles, but I ultimately think Ock's got more than enough control, cleverness, and personal charm to allow him to count

Edited by Ravok on Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:29:01 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#24414: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:25:18 AM

It's a tough one but I think at the end of the day, given his show of agency by breaking away from the tentacles demand and the fact the details of the operations even when he is acting by their corruptive influence are his own work I'm gonna lean yes.

From what I recall as well, the tentacles also seemed to hold an "old" version of him, the one that sought to see his experiment through no matter what and I think it's worth noting that they symbolize an internal struggle rather than just an outside force taking over his mind.

Edited by 43110 on Aug 2nd 2020 at 2:27:38 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#24416: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:29:53 AM

Like I said I was torn on Ock. But I feel like you made a good argument for him not being just under the control of his tentacles. So I will give a slight yes to the great villain from the second best Spider-Man movie.

If you are wondering my number one is Spiderverse.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:31:04 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#24417: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:30:10 AM

Leaning yes to the Doc.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#24418: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:31:40 AM

Thinking about it, I will give a [tup] to Doctor Octopus. While the arms corrupted him and gave him his ambition, he still planned on his own free will.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#24419: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:36:22 AM

[tup]Dr. Otto "Ock" Octavius

I am convinced that while Tentacles did compell Otto to do crime, it was Otto himself, who planned them out.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Aug 2nd 2020 at 9:37:45 PM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#24420: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:39:36 AM

Yes to Doc Ock, it feels like the bastard part is coming from the arms corrupting him while the magnificent part is him just being smart and cool.

I may look into comic!Ock since I've been curious about him for a while and I'm starting to really like reading Spiderman.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#24421: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:46:13 AM

Wouldn't be surprised at all if he counts there.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#24422: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:49:33 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if comic Ock counts. I mean he's considered one of Spidey's Archenemies for a very good reason. I'm surprised he's not been at least discussed before.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 2nd 2020 at 1:50:36 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#24423: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:51:41 AM

I think Comics Ock is a wee bit too petty personally, but then again I haven't read comics for a long time regularly now.

Last big thing of him I remember is trying to exterminate 99.92% of the worlds population and afterwards Superior Spider-Man.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#24424: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:55:53 AM

Yeah... that could be a problem. I'll wait to hear how it plays out but that's an iffy starting point.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#24425: Aug 2nd 2020 at 11:57:59 AM

Happy yes to [tup] Doc Ock.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid

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