During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Being a nazi is being a Politically Incorrect Villain of the worst type. So that kills the Magnificence
Watch me destroying my countryGenerally anyone affiliated with a racist regime is a hard no but Ambar did bring us an example from Timeline 191 where a member of one such regime was both smart and charming, as well as harbouring no racial prejudices himself and actively looking to assassinate the leader in the hopes of restructuring society without said regime, so there are rare exceptions.
Edit: Also, Sephiran seems to have been settled but Zelgius is sitting at 5-2, though a lot haven't voted, can more people throw in a yay or nay so we can have a more conclusive end to that one?
Edited by 43110 on Jul 13th 2018 at 11:38:49 AM
Another Disney example, from Tangled:
- Magnificent Bastard: Mother Gothel upgrades from standard Manipulative Bitch to this in her dealings with the Stabbington Brothers. They're murderous brutes and this woman with no magical powers whatsoever doesn't flinch when they pull their swords out, calls them out for squabbling over a tiara and uses the right means of motivation to get them to help her.
Yeah, I don't see it. One case of bravado doesn't cut it. She really doesn't have anything like a well thought-out grand plan in the film other than keeping Rapunzel sequestered in her home. And even that falls apart as soon as she runs off because she can't keep the girl she kidnapped from having a mind of her own.
Edited by Morgenthaler on Jul 14th 2018 at 7:56:35 AM
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Speaking of unsure M Bs...Found this on Assassination Classroom:
- Magnificent Bastard:
- The school Chairman, who deliberately created a system that would degrade and humiliate a small group of students for the sake of ensuring that everyone else does well. When he realizes that Class E is about to prove themselves, he out-and-out cheats by making it so that the rest of the school had an overwhelming advantage against Class E. That is, his personally teaching the subject matter of the tests, which was changed at the last minute to ensure the preservation of his damn system. All with a smug smile on his face. He even states that maintaining his system is more important than saving the world. Seriously, THE GUY IS A TOOL ON STEROIDS!
- Oh, and chapter 23 shows that the system even allows students not in Class E to get away with literally assaulting and battering a student from Class E. He also has the gall to casually drive up to the victimized student and hand him a handkerchief with a smile on his face, and let the bullies go on their merry way scott-free.
- Then in Chapter 35 when Class E has a chance of winning a baseball game, he comes onto the field and BRAINWASHES the good baseball team to be more aggressive just to keep up his system. Good lord, this system is life or death to him.
- His Magnificent Bastardy is even extending to their training, with him introducing Akira Takaoka into the class. And approving a nightmarish schedule of training, which just happens to not leave them any time to study. Only for the Chairman to later pull Takaoka out of the class, just to remind everyone else who was really in charge at the school. He wasn't about to let the students or Karasuma have the satisfaction of getting rid of Takaoka themselves, after all.
- Shockingly as of chapter 128 the most Magnificent of All Bastards in the series seems to be Kaede Kayano a.k.a. Akari Yukimura. The most skilled assassin was hiding all along right under the teachers, students and readers noses just waiting for the right time to strike. Since it had been foreshadowed from the start, it leads some people to believe that the author falls into this category as well.
- The school Chairman, who deliberately created a system that would degrade and humiliate a small group of students for the sake of ensuring that everyone else does well. When he realizes that Class E is about to prove themselves, he out-and-out cheats by making it so that the rest of the school had an overwhelming advantage against Class E. That is, his personally teaching the subject matter of the tests, which was changed at the last minute to ensure the preservation of his damn system. All with a smug smile on his face. He even states that maintaining his system is more important than saving the world. Seriously, THE GUY IS A TOOL ON STEROIDS!
Not sure how I feel about the Chairman and Kaede. Since I'm not familiar about the work and I felt that the Chairman had some tropes that undermines his magnificence a little but I'm not sure about it. Anyone familiar with the work regarding them qualifying?
P.S. for Disney example...While the guy probably won't qualify, will try to take a stab on Yokai from Big Hero 6 btw.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 14th 2018 at 10:36:31 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."I'd have to rewatch to see about the Principal but he could well count, as he's ultimately a Well-Intentioned Extremist (as much as one can be when their sphere of influence is limited to dictating education policy at his school). Kaede... I don't see it, she's cool but came across more of a Guile Hero with her trickery and barely has a stint as a villain.
As for Yokai? Go for it, he's one I've been looking forward to and whether he goes up or not, will be an interesting one to talk about.
Alas, I think we're just going to have to deal with 99% of entries being bad prior to being rewritten here. This trope really hasn't gotten the attention it has needed for a long time now.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 14th 2018 at 11:05:05 AM
That writeup makes the Chairman sound more like a Hate Sink than a Magnificent Bastard, tbh.
Also, I'm going to bed and I'll post this and whatever folks add when I get up, so here's the week's batch:
- Devilman: Ryo Asuka, in truth the fallen angel Satan, is the one who connives to have Akira Fudo become Devilman by tricking him into being possessed by the demon Amon. Upon regaining his memories as Satan, Ryo exposes the existence of demons and sets the world into a full-blown panic to make humanity turn on itself while he sweeps in with his demons to eliminate them, eventually facing and killing Akira himself to his great sorrow. Even after God resets the world, forcing Ryo to relive losing Akira over and over, Ryo shows hints of subtly altering things to eventually change the fate forced on him, showing why he is both Akira's greatest friend and deadliest enemy.
- Lone Wolf and Cub: Both the protagonist and antagonist are viciously efficient operators:
- Series Anti-Hero Ogami Itto is a stoic, charismatic warrior unjustly framed by the Yagyu clan. On the run with his three year old son Daigoro, Itto constantly showcases his strategic genius in his assassinations. In one instance, he allows himself to be captured by the enemy to get close to a target, revealing that the warning they received was written by him. In another, he uses Daigoro drowning as bait to trick a target's bodyguard into trying to save him so Itto can kill him. Itto singlehandedly brings down the powerful Yagyu clan on his own, showing why he is a man who walks the road of demons, the Path of Meifumado.
- The series Big Bad Yagyu Retsudo is a charismatic old man with the soul of a samurai that contrasts with the hard ruthlessness of an assassin. After the Yagyu lose the post of Shogun executioner to Itto, Retsudo uses a seemingly innocuous sparring match to trick Itto into knocking his staff into a man who could pose a threat to him, leading to the man's death. Later framing Itto for treason, Retsudo is revealed to be manipulating the entire Shogunate from the shadows and even when exposed for this, manages to connive his way back to power, having his rival, the poisoner Abe no Kaii, eliminated by setting a fire on a date that will force Kaii to commit seppuku. Retsudo then uses a legion of ninja to face Itto, having them focus on breaking Itto's infamous sword, so he has the advantage for their final battle. A ruthless genius, Retsudo continuously shows why he is Itto's greatest enemy.
- Shut Hell: The Dreaded, ruthless Khan; Genghis Khan himself. Born Temujin, and branded with the Tangut letters on his back marking him as a slave forever, the Khan seeks to destroy the Tangut script and the people of western Xia to forever remove knowledge of the brand on his skin. Utterly dominating the Mongol tribes through his dark charisma and power, the Khan sweeps through Western Xia and Jin, devastating all in his path with his brilliance and strength. Ever quick to turn any disadvantage back to his side, the Khan even handles the death of his son and commander Tolui by enslaving the young prince Yurul and forcing him to take Tolui's identity. A man who rose from nothing to become the greatest warlord the world had ever seen, the Khan decides he will burn all in his path, no matter how much fire it takes.
- Suicide Squad: Amanda Waller, also known as "The Wall" is a genius specialist who is ruthlessly dedicated to protecting her country by any means necessary. Forming the Suicide Squad, Waller sends them on mission after mission, making endless plans to eliminate their targets and to complete their missions, while not hesitating to sacrifice them. Known for a ruthless, intimidating nature, Waller is one of the few who can even intimidate Batman and when she finds herself being taken over by the Thinker cap, she shatters it as not to let anything else control her. Waller is even one of the few mortals capable of staring down Darkseid himself, and whenever she falls from power, she knows all she has to do is wait for when they give her authority again out of the inevitable need for someone like Waller to do the work nobody else will.
- V for Vendetta: The titular "V" is a masked revolutionary dedicating to crafting "The Land of Do-As-You-Please" from the fascist hellhole Britain has become. Destroying Parliament, V later seizes control of the broadcasting center of London to inform the country of his intentions and escapes by having the station head dressed up as him and used as a decoy. Slowly eliminating all of those at the Larkhill Concentration Camp who could have identified him, V is revealed to be manipulating almost everyone else, hacking into Britain's dictator, Adam Susan's supercomputer and guiding a widow of a man he'd killed to eliminate Susan. V proceeds to force Evey Hamilton into being his successor by forcing her to accept her true self under torture, and later even works his own death into his plans to convince Evey to become his successor and tear down the established order.
- Collateral: The enigmatic, philosophical Villain Protagonist "Vincent", is a ruthless yet suave Professional Killer, tasked with eliminating witnesses to the crimes of drug lord Felix Reyes-Torrena. Bribing taxi driver Max Durocher to unwittingly assist him, Vincent has Max transport him while he murders his targets. Genuinely affable, Vincent respectfully listens to the story of a jazz club owner before offing him and visits Max's sick mother in the hospital, even bringing her flowers. Adapting when Max destroys the files on his targets, Vincent has Max retrieve a new copy from Felix, both keeping his anonymity and leading the police to mistakenly believe Max is him. Fatally wounded by Max while hunting his last target, Vincent chooses to calmly accept his fate, giving Max some parting words before passing.
- The Gift (2015): Gordon "Gordo" Moseley was a troubled youth horrendously bullied by Simon Callem during high school. Upon learning that Simon still mocks him behind his back, Gordo enacts a complex plan to get back at him. He would tap in to Simon's sound system so he would hear his every move, orchestrating several break-ins at his house, leak information about Simon's underhanded business tactics to his bosses costing Simon his job, and give Simon a video of Gordo next to his wife Robyn. When Simon demands Gordo if he had sex with Robyn, Gordo doesn't confirm or deny the fact causing Simon to rush to the hospital where he is met with scorn from Robyn, whom Gordo told her of Simon's bullying ways. With Simon breaking down after loosing his job and wife, Gordo watch from afar before walking away completely satisfied that he ruined Simon's life similar to how Simon ruined his life.
- L.A. Confidential: Captain Dudley Smith is is a charming, witty corrupt police officer who tries to get control of all criminal activity in Los Angeles after the fall of gangster Mickey Cohen leaves a power vacuum behind. He chases away or kills off all criminal opposition in the city. When officer Dick Stensland and private bodyguard Buzz Meeks try to get more out of a major heroin deal they made with him he kills both of them, one in a diner massacre that leaves a dozen innocent people dead. He frames a trio of rapist criminals for the massacre, and orders them killed during the arrest by his associates to make sure they won't talk. After manipulating the entire department, he later begins eliminating loose ends and even sets up his young rival Edmund Exley sleeping with his muscle Bud White's girlfriend to trick Bud into killing Edmund to get rid of them both. Coming within an inch of victory, Dudley embodies both the charm and corruption that a police badge can conceal.
- Last of the Mohicans: The Huron warrior Magua was enslaved by the Mohawks thanks to the British Colonel Munro. Seeking revenge, Magua won over the Mohawk, becoming their blood brother until he could rejoin the Huron, only to discover his wife, thinking him dead, had married another after their children died. Filled with rage, Magua bides his time, leading a British patrol to its doom and later causes the fall of Munro's fort before massacring his followers and carving Munro's heart out before seeking to kill his daughters. When he faces Nathaniel Bumpo's adoptive brother Uncas, Magua shows his skill by killing him with no effort whatsoever, repeatedly showing why he is one of the most dangerous men on the frontier.
- Swordfish: The black ops operative who goes by Gabriel Shear is an agent who puts on the air of a charismatic, charming playboy who lives the high life, but under it is a man dedicated to preserving the supremacy and security of America by utterly destroying terrorists and dealing so much damage that nobody will dream of harboring terrorists again. Manipulating the hacker and hero Stanley, Gabriel sets up a complex heist to steal billions to fund his operation, murdering the Senator behind the program when the man betrays and tries to kill Gabriel. Gabriel sets up a robbery with hostages, murdering Stanley's ex-wife and kidnapping his daughter to force him to cooperate. Boasting of the need for misdirection, Gabriel fakes his partner Ginger's death, then fakes his own and escapes completely free to wage his own one man war against terrorism with no care for whoever gets in his way.
- Sympathy for Lady Vengeance: Lee Geum-ja once took the fall for murder for her older lover Mr. Baek, who threatened to murder her daughter if she refused. Geum-ja spends over a decade in prison, cultivating a reputation as a kind-hearted saint who does favors for everyone, even giving a kidney for a woman who needs an operation. Geum-ja also poisons the rapist prison bully, and upon being released sets about getting revenge on Baek. Calling on all her favors and finding her daughter, she manipulates Baek to his capture and discovers he is a serial child killer. To deal with him, she allows the parents of his victims to torture him to death, and insure equal complicity so that none of them will talk without implication themselves.
- Target (2018): Raditya Dika's friend, Hifdzi Khoir, is the mastermind behind the suffering of Dika and his other friends. Kidnapping the wife of a master hypnotist, he forces the hypnotist into playing as the patsy of his schemes. Seemingly a Butt-Monkey for much of the film, he pretends to suffer injuries to force his friends into being contestants in the decoy mastermind's game. Saving the survivors from the decoy mastermind, he reveals himself to be the one pulling the strings, making off safely after playing his friends. Though Hifdzi showed he was a callous manipulator, his whole scheme was done to honor his late father and show his disgust for what he sees as deceit in modern movies studios fabricating their stories.
- Fallout: New Vegas:
- Robert Edwin House is the multi-billionaire leader of New Vegas and one of the major factions vying for control of the Mojave Wasteland. Mr. House created the Strip, an oasis in the wasteland where people can gamble, drink, and bang as long as they have the cash for it, and took advantage of the situation with the NCR and the Legion to bolster his own defenses and revenue, while keeping his agenda hidden. If the Courier chooses to help him, House enacts his plans; he activates his Securitron army, deals with potential problems via their destruction or cooperation, tries to save NCR President Aaron Kimball from assassination to use him as a political scapegoat later, and holds the NCR at gunpoint to accept the terms of surrender he made for them. Through it all, House is suave, ruthless, and deeply pragmatic, while showing his benevolent side during his interactions with the Courier.
- Ulysses is the darkly philosophical overarching antagonist of the game's DLC chapters. Long before the events of the game, Ulysses discovered the Divide, a settlement that closely resembled the Old World, one that he loved and could pledge his loyalty to. After the Courier inadvertently caused its destruction, however, Ulysses would recognize the impact a single person could have in the Wasteland, and sought to replicate it for himself. During his journey, Ulysses effortlessly manipulates the Think Tank with an Armor-Piercing Question into giving him nuclear firepower, and tricks the malevolent Father Elijah into hunting for the Sierra Madre, knowing it'll be his undoing. In the Lonesome Road content, Ulysses goads the Courier into confronting him at the end of the Divide to showcase his master plan—to end the Mojave conflict with nukes so that a new civilization can rise from the fire—while setting up their climatic battle so that he almost always comes out on top.
- Suikoden series:
- Suikoden II: Jowy Atreides is The Hero Riou's best friend who defects to Highland to defeat them from within, assassinating Lady Annabelle of Muse and causing the downfall of Greenhill. Jowy proceeds to trick and poison King Agares Blight to place the psychopathic Luca Blight on the throne, before betraying and luring Luca to his death as well, ascending the throne by marrying Princess Jilia Blight. Realizing both sides hate each other two much to stop fighting, Jowy keeps the war going, even betraying his beloved former best friend and Riou's adoptive sister Nanami. Jowy keeps going to bring the war to a conclusion, planning on letting Highland and the Jowston states be absorbed into a new nation and create a new world, no matter what price he has to pay to get there.
- Suikoden III: The Masked Bishop of Harmonia, in truth Lady Leknaat's former apprentice Luc, discovered the truth that he was a clone meant to bear a True Rune. Receiving a vision of a dead future thanks to the True Runes, Luc decides to change this fate, assembling a small conspiracy and proceeding to manipulate the Grassland tribes and the knights of Zexen into war with assassinations, attacks and clever political maneuvering before also sending the Kingdom of Harmonia into the fray. Playing the sides against each other, Luc reveals his intention is to sacrifice himself to destroy his own True Wind Rune, which will annihilate the entire continent, to change the course of fate for the rest of the world.
- Justice League: Just as ruthlessly efficient as her comics counterpart, Amanda Waller is one of the few to stare Batman down without being remotely intimidated. Waller repeatedly acts to keep the League and other superpowered beings under control, creating multiple countermeasures and plans against them, even designing disposable superheroes with short lifespans as Project Cadmus's own personal attack force. Even in old age, Waller manipulates the implantation of Bruce Wayne's DNA into a man to father a child who will be Bruce's son, while planning to have the parents murdered to recreate Batman for the future.
So, I know I've got a backlog to do. Finally done with the course I was TAing, so I should be able to participate a bit more now. Anyway, thought I'd start with a nice short one. To give ample warning—this is from one of Agatha Christie's mystery novels, and one of her best. So if you'd like to read Peril at End House sometime without being spoilered, I would advise you to stop reading from hereon out.
Who is Nick Buckley? What has she done?
Magdala "Nick" Buckley is the last living member of her immediate family, after the deaths of her mother, father, and brother. Her grandfather, old Sir Nicholas, left her the family home, End House, along with a whole lot of debt, and a nickname (he was "Old Nick", she was "Young Nick"). Passionately devoted to the old house, but unable to pay for its upkeep, Nick thinks she has found salvation when she meets Michael Seton, famed pilot and heir to his uncle, Matthew Seton's, immense fortune. Things don't pan out, however, and Seton falls for her cousin, Magdala "Maggie" Buckley. The two secretly become engaged, though they have to keep it a secret from his woman hating uncle, with only Nick knowing about it.
When Michael Seton goes missing during his flight around the world, and his Uncle Matthew dies, leaving Michael, and through him, Maggie, heir to the Seton fortune, Nick hatches a plan. Faking several "accidents" (a falling picture frame, cut brakelines, a falling boulder) aimed at herself, Nick approaches Hercule Poirot, famed detective, at a hotel. Feigning ignorance of who Poirot is, Nick tells him of her "accidents", then pretends to comment on a bee that has just flown by her. When she walks away, she carefully tosses a bullet to the grass, where Poirot notices it and assumes he has just seen Nick shot at unawares.
Poirot concludes Nick is in danger and begins investigating the supposed attempts on her life. He looks into all of Nick's closest friends, including Commander George Challenger, art dealer Jim Lazarus, her cousin Charles Vyse, and Frederica "Freddie" Rice. Poirot can find some motive for each of them, but not much, and becomes increasingly confused. He also suggests that Nick have a friend come to stay with her. Nick agrees to wire for Maggie (who was coming to visit that week anyway).
When confirmation comes in that Michael Seton is, indeed, dead, Nick springs her master plan. She steals several of the love letters written by Seton to Maggie, taking care to take only those that use the full name she shares with her cousin. During the fireworks show that evening, she dresses in the same clothes as her cousin, loans her cousin her red shawl, and then shoots Maggie. With Nick having lain the groundwork as thoroughly as she has, everyone assumes that Maggie was killed in mistake for Nick. When Michael Seton's will is read out, Nick, who everyone knows was friends with Seton, is able to pretend that she is the Magdala Buckley named in the will, and claims his millions of dollars.
Pretending to be distraught over her cousin's death, Nick goes into a nursing home as Poirot suggested. She then calls up Freddie and has Freddie mail her some chocolates, disguising her voice just enough that Freddie, who is a struggling cocaine addict, will not be able to swear it was her later on. She puts a card that Poirot had attached to some flowers onto the chocolates, puts a bit of cocaine in a few, and eats one, taking just enough to get sick, and make it appear that her would-be assassin has struck again, masquerading as Poirot in order to poison her. Everyone is again fooled, and Poirot is left in a state of near panic.
The plan finally comes undone when Poirot discovers a letter posted by Maggie to her parents mentioning that she was supposed to come stay with Nick that week anyway and that she does not know why Nick wired for her to come early. Once he knows Nick has lied to him once, Poirot begins to disassemble the rest of the case, and in the end, outs Nick, though not before she makes a last effort to frame Freddie (who is listed as Nick's heir) for trying to kill her, slipping the gun that killed Maggie into Freddie's pocket. Nick is briefly shocked, but recovers herself, borrows Freddie's wristwatch, which contains her cocaine supply, and retreats to another room to commit suicide while Poirot explains all of the above to her horrified friends.
What is her competition like? How does she perform against them?
Nick's primary opponent is Poirot himself, and she not only fools him for most of the novel, but makes him an unwitting accomplice to her crimes, since he is the one who persuades first Nick's friends and then the police that her life is in danger. Her friends and family repeatedly give Poirot information that could put him onto her (Freddie notes she's a fantastic liar, Charles Vyse tells Poirot of her fanatic dedication to her house, Jim Lazarus that there's nothing wrong with her car), but Poirot, by his own admission, always believes Nick over the others, and these statements of truth from them only succeed in incriminating them in Poirot's eyes as possible suspects.
The extent to which Nick screws with Poirot is best exemplified by the following set of quotes. Poirot, throughout all of the books of the series, has expressed a deep loathing for melodramatic detective story tropes. And yet, when trying to figure out why anyone is trying to kill Nick, he has the following exchange with his friend Arthur Hastings:
'Do you know, Poirot,' I said, 'I call that rather a bright idea. There may be something in it.'
Poirot groaned.
'You would say that! It would appeal, I knew, to your romantic but slightly mediocre mind. Buried treasure-yes, you would enjoy that idea.'
'Well-I don't see why not-'
'Because, my friend, the more prosaic explanation is nearly always more probable. Then Mademoiselle's father-I have played with even more degrading ideas concerning him. He was a traveller. Supposing, I say to myself, that he has stolen a jewel-the eye of a God. Jealous priests are on his tracks. Yes, I, Hercule Poirot, have descended to depths such as these.'
Poirot met plenty of worse criminals in his time. But none ever manipulated him to the extent that Nick did and as he himself admits, if her cousin had not posted that letter she would have gotten away with it.
Is she a Chessmaster? A Manipulative Bastard? Is she capable of thinking on her feet?
Nick's scheme encompasses the whole of the plot of Peril At End House, and she manipulates Poirot, Maggie, the police, and her entire peer group into going along as pawns at one point or another. Along the way, the only bump her scheme encounters is when Poirot tells her she must have a friend come stay with her, and she adapts to that quickly, by simply wiring Maggie to move up the date of her visit. As Poirot observes, on that occasion he himself played right into Nick's hands, enabling her to further her plot. Up until Poirot finds Maggie's letter, Nick is in full control of the story, and always uses her sheer force of personality to steer people away from conclusions that could complicate her life (such as when someone mentions a secret panel in the house and Nick, who has hidden the gun that killed Maggie there, laughs off the entire idea and steers the conversation away).
How much of a Bastard is she? Does she have redeeming features? Is she capable of being charismatic?
Nick is always described as a "charming little devil". Even people like Freddie, who know about her bad points, cannot help but like her, and to the end, they struggle to blame her for her actions, with Freddie describing Nick as "a queer little girl who couldn't help herself." Nobody wants to think badly of her, even when they have reason to, and this, more than anything else, helps her use those around her. People never fall in love with Nick—it's noted that her tragedy is that men like her, and then "go off her", falling for the women around her instead of Nick herself; this happened with Jim Lazarus and Freddie and then Michael Seton and Maggie—but they always love her platonically, and she is the centre of her social circle for a reason.
So far as redeeming features go, Nick's love of her house is a big one. That might not sound like much, but it was her grandfather's home, and his ghost more or less haunts the place, which is why Nick is so attached to it. She refuses to even consider selling a portrait of Sir Nicholas, even when offered more than twice what it's worth, and she always speaks of the man (who was as bad as she is and who she learned all the tricks of the trade from) very fondly. I don't think we really need to get into her bad points, since they consist of "murdering her cousin and framing her best friend."
Final verdict?
Nick Buckley used Hercule Poirot, one of fiction's iconic Great Detectives, as he had never been used before and would never be used again. I think that earns her a spot on the list. What say we all?
Edited by AmbarSonofDeshar on Jul 14th 2018 at 11:52:51 AM
Yea to Nick. Anyways, I got an EP this time...Special thanks to Arivne as always.
What's the Work
So the work in question is a 2018 anime called Dances With The Dragons (or Saredo Tsumibito wa Ryuu to Odoru). In the world of Saredo Tsumibito, humanity has discovered a way to channel a magic that was controlled by dragons a long time ago so that they could terrorize humanity. These magics and special formulas are now known as Jushiki, which is essentially a chemical reaction augmented through special weapons that cause a magic-spell like effect and as a result, these powers could possibly alter scientific laws. The ones who can handle those powers came to be known as Jushikiists. Due to the fact that conflicts between the dragons and humans are almost always long lasting, a peace treaty was enforced even though some people disagreed with said treaty. However, the story is focused on two Jushikiists called Gayus Sorel and Gigina Ashley-Bufh who seemingly can't get along together. However, they take plenty of requests from some clients who need help even if both Gayus and Gigina sometimes bicker with each other.
In Episode 2, Gayus and Gigina receive a request from a high ranking Jushiikist named Helodel (who is also Gayus's childhood friend) to become a bodyguard and a tour-guide for a noble figure, Cardinal Moldeen Ogus Gyunei.
Who is He/What Has He Done
So Moldeen is a church cardinal who is actually a cousin of the Queen of the Dragon Empire, Queen Zenobia of Ilum and the proxy to the Oujes Emperor. In his first appearance, he participates in the conference discussion regarding the Alshok territory merging with the Seven-City Alliance and due to the never-ending conflict, he then changes the meeting location to somewhere in Eridana City.
When Gayus and Gigina met with Cardinal Moldeen, he gives a reason why Gayus and Gigina had to become his bodyguard. It's because that he doesn't want his fun to be ruined while visiting the Eridana Festival. It is revealed that Genon, one of his generals disguised as himself, was the announcer of the festival. Moldeen said that there are seven versions of him that protect the real one and he thanked them for that. When Moldeen finds out that Gayus is a Pessimistic-Optimistic person, Moldeen confesses that he deceived, betrayed and spilled the blood of some people. However, Moldeen himself claims that he still has a positive view of the world so long as the children are happy.
In the next episode, Moldeen asks Gayus and Gigina to become his bodyguards for an upcoming tea party that he will hold, along with a guest from afar. In the church where the tea party will be held, Moldeen asks a philosophical question of Gayus about God, to which he gives a rather nihilistic answer to Gayus himself by saying the world is full of deception. However, after the tea party starts, it is revealed that the other assassin attacked it. After this, Gayus then asks Moldeen and his special guest to escape from the church.
When Gayus ended in the hospital after preventing the assassination attempt, it is revealed that Gayus and Gigina had escorted the decoy Moldeen, Genon, in the previous episodes, and the real Moldeen then visited Gayus in the hospital. It is then revealed that Moldeen actually planned the assassination attempt. Then he arranges the murder of one of the traitors from his side, Helodel, by giving him an explosive that is disguised as a parcel when Helodel tries to move the car. His motivation is that he wants to prevent the Holy War from happening. It is also revealed that he hired two assassins to fight Gayus and Gigina so that he could watch it for fun, which is another ulterior motive for why he hires them.
When confronted in the next episode, despite Moldeen admitting his own so-called "defeat", Gayus calls him out on the fact that he and Gigina had been dancing in Moldeen's palm all along. The reason why Moldeen planned the assassination attempt is that he wanted to kick some hardliners who are opposed to the Holy Land of Alsok's seceding. It is also revealed that he masterminded the failure of the first Tienlun Accord to create the favorable conditions for Alsok seceding and promised to mediate said failed accord. It is also revealed that Gayus and Gigina were used as a bait to lure a serial killer of the Jushikiists, Nidvolk, because she was one of the Vaisen defectors. After Gayus recounts the story and Gigina tries to kill Moldeen after he finds out what happened, Moldeen then gives both Gayus and Gigina his own valuable ring because they were dancing brilliantly in his so-called "stage". Not only that, he offer both of them the chance to join his side as Winged Generals, in which both Gayus and Gigina declined.
Even though that Gayus and Gigina's business with Moldeen seems over, in later episodes it is revealed that Moldeen signed another treaty to support an oppressive regime of a certain country called Urmun because the dictator of Urmun, Dorcetta, contributed to the prosperous state of the Dragon Empire. At the end of the series, Moldeen gets away with everything, with his goals being completed.
Is He Charming,Charismatic,Thinks on her Feet?
Absolutely! He's a great planner and a great thinker overall. Thanks to his gambits, many people, including Gayus and Gigina, were dancing in the palm of his hands to the point he called his gambits a stage that people can't escape and both Gayus and Gigina the actors of said stage. As far as his charismatic tendencies go, Moldeen is affable, polite and never loses his charm towards his companions and enemies alike and claims that he loves to have fun. So I think there's no issue here.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much?
Moldeen, despite being a Cardinal of the Church, is not the saintly man that he appears to be on the outside. He even claims that he had deceived, betrayed and caused some bloodshed against other people so that he could reach his goals. His gambits cause Gayus and Gigina considerable harm rather than benefiting them. Not only that, he also supports an evil regime for economic and political reasons.
However, even if Moldeen is rather a bastard, his goal is actually well-intentioned. He tries to end the Holy War between the humans and the dragons even if he uses some dirty tactics to do so, and he also tries to keep the prosperous state of the Dragon Empire and the City of Eridana even though doing so means supporting the oppressive regime of another country. He still remains affable to Gayus and Gigina even though his secret was uncovered to them, to the point he offers them some great positions.
Final Verdict
Keep him! While the anime is rather mediocre, I think Moldeen hits the mark of this trope. And I should note something: even if Moldeen orders one of his generals to disguise himself as him in the first 3 episodes, the general is able to mimic both the appearance and traits of the person he's disguised as. Even taking those out of context, Moldeen still qualifies, as the reveal of his gambits and his being a great master planner comes into Episode 4 and 5 so I think there's no issue here.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."Have any of you guys watched Phone Booth? If so, do you think the Caller counts?
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Oh! I remember that movie in my childhood days. I think the Caller might makes it given that he wants to teach the lesson to the MC because he was cheating. I think I can EP him but I need to rewatch the movie again first.

To Jacque
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff