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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#24151: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:19:50 PM

I still think what happens is too extreme with all of this. I'd still cut

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#24152: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:20:17 PM

Keeping my no vote. I too agree that the arguments for her keeping are compelling, but they ultimately don't sway me. I would be far more okay upvoting her if her breakdown had not been a Light level breakdown.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24153: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:25:11 PM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#24154: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:31:56 PM

Honestly still leaning towards a yes. After all, context is there.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#24155: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:35:01 PM

I’m going to stick with keeping Azula as well.

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#24157: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:35:25 PM

[up][up][up]What honestly makes me lean so as well? She ends confident and calm. I don’t see it as waffling back and forth, there seems to be genuine growth and growing into MB is totally fair game. Tamura is an example I did and am particularly fond of and I’d argue doesn’t truly become one until the very end when she learns to love her human child.

Edited by 43110 on Jul 30th 2020 at 5:36:57 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#24158: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:44:30 PM

I also vote to keep Azula. She has a breakdown but she recovers in the comic and that’s enough for me.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#24159: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:44:51 PM

And honestly? The people comparing Azula's breakdown to Light's are missing two crucial factors: Light wasn't an abuse victim and he never recovered. Azula didn't just recover from her breakdown, she also shed a number of flaws she used to have. Really, the two breakdowns may be superficially similar, but the context means they're not really comparable.

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#24160: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:46:00 PM

Somebody brought up Riddick from the series of same in the discussion page for this trope.

I'll probably do an EP on him after refreshing my memory (given he's appeared in 3 movies, an anime, and 2 videogames), then get to some others on my to-do list, like Agent Thompson (Terence Stamp!) and Anon.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#24161: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:46:40 PM

[up] Speaking for myself, I say go for it.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#24162: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:49:54 PM

All things considered, yes to Azula.

[up][up] Looking forward to your Danny Ocean EP.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 30th 2020 at 6:01:21 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#24163: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:50:32 PM

Last thing I'll say on Azula: my inherent issue is I don't think it's even technically a Villainous Breakdown that she goes through. I am of the firm belief that that's who she is beneath any calm exterior, and that the entire point of her breakdown is that that's who Azula is beneath the manipulative charm, a damaged, emotionally unstable psycho fucked up by her upbringing to such a point that she tries to be a perfect, calm schemer, but it's all a mask that ultimately crumbles when she loses control of the situation and her partners turn on her for her horrid attitude.

Even though she ends mostly triumphant, the hints of instability are still there, and I have zero issue believing that she'd have an equally horrid breakdown at any time if her plans once again met such vigorous opposition.

Let the votes fall where they may, that's my final major word on her, and should she stay? Then I'm heavily advocating for her a position on the Never Again, since apparently she's come up many a time before even though I haven't seen much of such a thing.

@Morgen: Looking forward to Riddick!

Edited by Ravok on Jul 30th 2020 at 2:53:43 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#24164: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:51:06 PM

Alright if she stays which it seems like. Could we just put her on a never again list and let us never speak of this again.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24165: Jul 30th 2020 at 2:51:59 PM

In Smoke and Shadow, her plans do meet vigorous opposition though and she handles it fine, however.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#24166: Jul 30th 2020 at 3:01:29 PM

I'll switch to abstain. I really don't know at this point. It's complicated enough that I would need to read those comics to decide.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#24167: Jul 30th 2020 at 3:08:15 PM

While not familiar with the tie-in comics, I think the fact that Azula has any kind of recovery AT ALL after the ending that show gives her is commendable in and of itself.

[tup] to keeping Azula.

Anybody mind if I do The Witch from Into the Woods if I think she counts?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#24168: Jul 30th 2020 at 3:09:24 PM

Go or it. I'd be surprised if Sondheim didn't have a keeper in some work or another.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#24169: Jul 30th 2020 at 3:11:54 PM

@Lighty For the record, it’d be of the 2014 film adaptation and not the play (which I did see once as a college performance a while ago because my sister played Jack’s Mother). That okay?

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 30th 2020 at 3:12:28 AM

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#24171: Jul 30th 2020 at 3:13:00 PM

Ayayay, I know no one wants a never again list, but at this point, I think we could use one, even if it’s just for Azula.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#24172: Jul 30th 2020 at 3:16:57 PM

What is the vote count on Azula anyway? From what I am seeing the discussion seems pretty split, if maybe slightly in favor of keep.

Edited by username2527 on Jul 30th 2020 at 3:17:10 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#24173: Jul 30th 2020 at 3:19:50 PM

Switching to keep. I have successfully made a fool out of myself yet again.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#24174: Jul 30th 2020 at 3:20:24 PM

43110 said he'd tallying.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#24175: Jul 30th 2020 at 3:21:50 PM

14 Yes, 6 No accounting for all the times she's been asked about.


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