During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I don't really care if she stays or not. I just don't want it to be because "she got help to recover and didn't do it on her own". A lot you braught up good points, but that one really offends me as someone who has been through therapy for years and feels like I got out of it just fine.
I don't mean to drag on about that point. But that just really bothers me.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadOkay. I'll wait for Lighty. I'm going to take a break for a couple of hours to cool down. I'm sorry if I got to personal there.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 30th 2020 at 3:42:53 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadFor now, I'm voting to keep Azula, and that's all I'm gonna say on the matter for the time being.
Personally, I'm not gonna chew you out, just give a bit of constructive criticism and maybe instill some perspective. At the end of the day, this really isn't that important. It's just classifying fictional characters based on some pretty subjective criteria. You're perfectly free to disagree on Azula being an MB, but there's no need to have a chip on your shoulder about her being counted as one. Same with your disappointment about CM/MB crossovers being removed; you're entitled to your own opinion, but there's no need to get so worked up about it. While we do try to be pretty dedicated to thoroughly examining how well a character matches up against the criteria, we shouldn't go too far in treating this as Serious Business.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jul 30th 2020 at 1:55:10 AM
Sooo... I feel like there should be some discussion on the idea of a Never Again list. I do feel like something should be done regarding Azula either way the votes swing but especially if she ends up keeping, considering how contentious she is as this trope but I can't think of anyone else being on it outside of maybe Darkrai. I personally have a lot of issues with the CM list (people constantly asking if someone should go on it and new people just not reading it) but again something should be done regarding Azula and I'm not fully comfortable with it just being a rule regarding her.
Well, to somewhat offer a topic changer for the moment, I think I've actually decided against effortposting Megatron from Transformers: Prime for the same reasons as ol' Darkseid: Megatron is vile.
Now, Megatron is brilliant, he's badass, he's genre savvy, and he's very successful, but... he's prone to raging at his minions when they fail him, he raises an army of robot zombies which is very much played as the horror and "desecration" it is, he abuses his own minions for minor slip-ups, he tries to wipe out all life on Earth, he arranges for the cloning and creation of new Predacon life...only to then realize they could turn on him, burn the newly-created beings alive in their test tubes, and frame the Autobots for it so that Predaking will ally with Megatron to avenge his slaughtered newborn brethren.
Megatron does all of this with sadistic relish and his only motive is power and control.
He does end up dissolving the Deception cause and proclaims he's tired of causing pain in his final appearance after a rousing round of Mind Rape and torture from Unicron, but...a last second Heel–Face Turn doesn't change the fact that for the other 99% of the show, Megatron's a dyed-in-the-wool Complete Monster (and was even listed as one back in the day), with zero redeeming features or well-intentioned goals—just a sadist with a god complex.
I could be convinced to propose him, but compared to the much more genuinely cool, much less horrific Soundwave, Megatron is....rough.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Hmm, that’s tough. Not helped by the fact the thing that would save him is sudden at the end and there’s a much more clear cut case in his work.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 30th 2020 at 5:05:18 AM
Alright, so...
Yes, Azula suffers a bad breakdown at the conclusion of the series, but context needs to be given: Throughout the series, Azula is shown to be a brilliant plotter and calculating opponent. The issue is her drive for perfection and, under that, deep-seated fear of betrayal. The episode 'The Beach' is mostly comedic, with her not getting how she comes of to other kids. Given we just okayed Grunkle Stanley "I nearly walked right back into the waiting maw of a spider woman played for comedy" Stan, I'm not seeing at part as an issue.
Azula, under all her grandiose ambitions, and I need to stress this highly, is an abuse victim. It is implicitly shown and all but outright stated that she suffers enormously from her belief that her mother hated her and how her father treats Zuko. Her entire life is a lengthy procession of "screw up and this'll be you" with Zuko as an example. Ozai's treatment of her is just as terrible, in many ways, to how he treats Zuko. Azula lives in constant fear of a single mistake ending her role as the favorite of an abusive fascist. Her breakdown begins when Ozai abandons her to a largely ceremonial vestigial empire, with the insituation he no longer needs her, after her friends have abandoned her (in her eyes) and her trust issues are manifesting poorly.
Ravok is correct Azula is in a realm of "not okay" in The Search. she believes her mother hated her and had another daughter to replace her, rejects any help and runs off, still insane. Then comes Smoke and Shadow...what happens there?
Azula has...recovered. Immensely. Not only has she recovered her sanity, she's thought long and hard and realized she'll never be Fire Lord. She leaves Ozai behind and decides she's going to simply manipulate Zuko into being the Fire Lord he should be in her eyes, masterminding the events of the comic, from the kidnapping of the kids, to Zuko cracking down, etc. She's grown immensely here and showcases it. She's no longer prone to snapping, but accepts no, she's not perfect and doesn't have to be. Her final scene is observing from a distance, smiling confidently and leaving with her men to continue striking from the shadows.
If Azula's backstory was just that, I doubt there'd be any issues, but I think people are writing off the character development for a young teenager unfairly. Yes, she snaps, yes she takes a long time to recover, but she does recover and emerges as a brand new villain. I don't think any of us is saying that someone who's the victim of absolutely grotesque psychological abuse shouldn't be allowed to grow into an MB because they have less than graceful moments when that abuse weighs on them.
Uh soundwave is a better candidate. I do think megs is probably a bit too much. On the plus side, Frank welker will still get an mb either way.
Would shockwave count instead ?
I remember him favouring cold logic on his endeavours. Though it's been Yeats since I've seen the thing.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I'm simply going to say that Lighty said a lot of what I thought. I'm voting keep. Then I am going to backout for the night. But before I do. I just wanted to say. Everyone braught up good points. I'll see you tomorrow.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 30th 2020 at 4:16:03 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadI get the arguments to keep Azula, I really do, and I'm putting my own arguments to cut to bed after this discussion since it's legitimately the first time I've railed against her on the thread, but for me...yes, she suffered abuse, yes she has rights to break down, and no, no one is saying that and abuse victim can't be a MB, but none of that changes the fact that Azula spends most of Book 3 and an entire comic as a mentally unstable lunatic lacking much of any charm, hurts people for bullshit reasons, and engages in Never My Fault. And even in Smoke and Shadow, still shows signs of mental imbalance, even if she has a handle on it.
She recovers long enough for a final comic, after almost an entire half season and other comic of making mistakes and being a pitiable, pathetic mental case. It's not enough for me to say she counts.
Edited by Ravok on Jul 30th 2020 at 2:16:59 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I think 'most' o Book 3 is overstating it. Through Day of the Black Sun, Azula is very in control, and plays the Gaang like a fiddle. It's only some episodes later, as of Boiling Rock when Azula snaps at Mai and Ty Lee, which isn't a breakdown, just a burst of anger.
It's only the finale when she breaks down. Until Day of the Black Sun, Azula spends her time teasing Zuko and chilling in the capital.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 30th 2020 at 2:17:52 AM

Oh, the comics are completely canon and the idea that disliking them makes them not so is absurd. It's like disqualifying the Phantom of the Opera on the basis that Love Never Dies sucks. Which it does, but that doesn't actually matter because it's canon.