During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Amber reserved discussion on him?
I'm going to vote "no" on Kyubey, "cut" on Mister "I coerced someone into sex" and second the opinion that Jorg from Prince of Thorns is a cut. That book was written by someone who confused "edgy" with "quality" and to put that in perspective? There's a scene where Jorg reflects on how weird it is to be having sex with a girl who is actually into it—he's committed so many rapes, you see, that that's his standard to measure it against.
I would vote "yes" on Sephiran/Lehran but "no" on Zelgius, because it's not clear at all to me, despite having played the game through multiple times, how much Zelgius came up with on his own, versus did on Lehran's orders. I also find Lehran the grander villain in most other respects—Zelgius' Blood Knight thing is just extremely offputting to me in a way that Lehran's tortured persona isn't.
I'll be doing Russell sometime shortly, but if we need to take down that write up in the meantime that's fine.
My understanding from it is Sephiran basically told Zelgius what he needed done, but the details of the war and the Beginon military particulars were down to Zelgius himself as he understood it in a way that Sephiran never did.
I wouldn't quite classify Zelgius as a Blood Knight either. It's really just directed at his drive and desire to surpass Greil. He doesn't seem to take any pleasure in killing or fighting otherwise and certainly didn't when he fought Ike's friend Ranulf.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 12th 2018 at 9:37:46 AM
My issue with that is that even if it's true, Zelgius' superior generalship always took a backseat to his physical presence.
In any case, I was simply never impressed by Zelgius the way I was by Lehran. Maybe it was because the game pushed too hard on the "look how noble his desire to surpass and murder his teacher is", but he left me disgusted more than anything else. So while I'm an easy "yes" on Lehran, I'm a "no" on him.
The character's entirely characterized by his desire to be the best fighter around, to the point of not only obsessing over surpassing the one person who beat him, but trying to mold said man's son into someone who can then kill him. If that's not Blood Knight I don't know what is.
As for not enjoying fighting Ranulf...the first thing he literally asks him is if Ranulf thinks he's worthy to face him, agreeing to the fight only after Ranulf says he's the right-hand to Gallia's future king. He has a few similar lines about the worthiness of the other laguz kings to face him as well, if memory serves.
And of course regardless of if he fits the technical definition of Blood Knight, I find his characterization obnoxious to the point where it undermines my ability to be impressed by him, and in the end I think Lehran overshadows him. So I'm still a "no".
Edited by AmbarSonofDeshar on Jul 12th 2018 at 9:48:05 AM
That's partially because Greil was the one to instill in him a desire to eventually surpass him as he was Zelgius's teacher.
As far as impressive generalship, that's mostly revealed in the sequel when it's revealed he was essentially manipulating the entire Daein army and directing them as they needed to be for his and Sephiran's plan as Sephiran handled the political affairs with Beginon.
Which requires murdering him...why? The game pushes hard on the notion that this is some sort of noble goal that I should admire, but I'm not buying it. And yes, of course the MB is still ultimately a villain and a bad person, but some things simply undercut my ability to be impressed by someone and this type of characterization is one of them.
I'm not liable to change my vote on this one, man. I honestly found Naesala—who I know you're thinking of proposing—more impressive than I did Zelgius.
Edited by AmbarSonofDeshar on Jul 12th 2018 at 9:49:56 AM
Yeah, not seeing the magnificence in tracking down and murdering your former teacher because you have an obsessive need to be the best. Or in trying to turn said teacher's son into a perfect disciple who will one day kill you.
Like I said before, not likely to change my mind on this one. I find Zelgius both personally obnoxious and outdone by the other characters with which he shares the story, and nothing that's been said here has really changed my mind.
zelgius and Sephrain
Kyuby. He's a very interesting and unique villain but ultimately I agree he's too vile and a charisma-less prick.
Oh make no mistake, d Kyuby is no WIE. He only really cares about his own survival and would be fine if everything else burned other than him.
Also please cut it with the passive-aggressiveness, its not the end of the world if your candidate gets down-voted, just move on and don't be petty about it. .
Edited by miraculous on Jul 13th 2018 at 6:14:12 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Kyubey
As someone who has seen Madoka Magica he's too much of a Hate Sink and a Smug Snake in Rebellion to boot, and he breaks the Moral Event Horizon pretty early on.
I don't see him as a Well-Intentioned Extremist at all, he's not like say Thanos from Infinity War. He's utterly selfish in what he wants, there's not many indicators that he actually cares for humans.
Great villain, not this trope.
Edited by ReynTime250 on Jul 13th 2018 at 3:32:59 PM
Found another cut on the Dead of Summer YMMV page:
- Amy, in spades. She made friends with everyone in the camp and pretended to be a sweet, innocent girl, all while secretly planning to murder her fellow counselors in order to summon Malphas. Even Boyd Heelan's Cult were little more than her Unwitting Pawns. Her plan worked to perfection and no one ever suspected a thing.
Having watched Dead of Summer myself, Amy does meet two of the criteria needed such as being intelligent as well as possessing charm. However, she fails because she's too much of a bitch due to being overly sadistic serial killer who had killed her family, best friend, police officers, etc. Her grand scheme is to become a vessel for the demon dwelling in the lake, but as for constantly thinking on her feet, aside from quickly allowing Malthas to repossess her when she was pretending to give Jessie CPR, she fails in that department.
From Preacher
- Magnificent Bastard: Herr Starr. Even after being nigh-completely mentally and physically destroyed, he's still just about the baddest motherfucker in the valley. (Okay. Second baddest.)
- Cassidy in the final arc, given that he arranges things so that he gets to walk away with exactly what he wants while Jesse and Tulip think he's dead and won't come looking for him again.
43110 and lighty. You two have actually read it, thoughts ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Alright, so Lighty and I talked about several things over the PM and since I've got some time on my hands right now, why not discuss the first candidate?
Whats the work?
Most of you will be familiar with The Witcher by now. This particular villain is the Big Bad for the first game. And since that game has been out for a decade now, I will mark any spoilers.Who is the bastard and what has he done?
His name is Jacques de Aldersberg and he is the Grand Master of the Order of the Flaming Rose. He is introduced pretty late in the game, in Chapter 5 out of 5 (barring the Epilogue), during the Non-Human uprising in Vizima, where he saves King Foltest and his followers from an angry mob of elves. Said uprising was provoked by himself and his Order, no less. During the king's absence, his knights were running wild througout the city and its enviroment, targeting non-humans left and right, Scoia'tael (terrorists or freedom fighters, depending on who you ask or what faction we're talking about) and civilians alike, which finally escalated into an all-out massacre between both factions. He then tries to smoothtalk the king into surrendering control to him to deal with the uprising, but Foltest refuses. Then? After Geralt kills Azar Javed, the apparent main antagonist of the game, it is revealed that his plans go far deeper than just that. He secretly allied with the Salamandra, the criminal organization which the previously mentioned Azar lead, allowing them to run their business, which includes murder, human experimentation, drug trading and much more. The drug trade in particular is what secretly finances the Order, giving them the funds they need to pursue their goals, while simultaneously being able to pose as humble knights to the public, who fulfill the needs of the poor for free. He also ordered Azar and his right-hand assassin, the Professor, to steal the secrets of the Witcher mutation from Kaer Morhen, which are then used to create a bizarre army of superhuman mutants, which he releases in the final act to seize control. Now why does he do all of that, you might ask? That goes a little deeper into The Witcher's mythology. Ithlinne, a legendary elven healer, astrologist and sage, who lived a long time ago, made several prophecies about the future, all of which have indeed come completely true. One of these prophecies foretells of a world(s) ending event called The White Frost. What exactly the origins of this phenomenon are is never made quite clear, but it has (as the name suggests) already frozen countless worlds throughout The Multiverse, causing the resident species to die out. Jacques' plan is to save the human race by mutating them, making them more resilient, and leading them to a mass exodus down south. So far so good. I guess many of you will not be convinced yet. Well, there is a twist. Guess who Jacques really is? It is Alvin, Geralt's adoptive son who accompanies him throughout the game and later gets lost in a time portal. The first game only implied it, but the third game finally confirmed it. Now Alvin's life, in short, pretty terrible. He was orphaned at a young age, lost his foster mom Caroline to a pack of Barghests and was then frequently tormented by violent visions (of Ithline's prophecy) due to a massive amount of magical power he couldn't control, on top of being targeted by a whole bunch of bad people due to his powers. The game perfectly captures his journey from a young and innocent boy, traumatized by several events in his childhood, to becoming a deluded fanatic.Redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuses?
A whole bunch of them. As I already mentioned above, he suffered from massive Power Incontinence at young age, lost many loved ones, was constantly living on the run due to bad people hunting him and was driven mad by the (as he saw it) responsibility to save the world. Plus, a really nice bonus? Depending on what Geralt tells him throughout numerous dialogues, he indirectly helped shaping his beliefs! Geralt can, for example, tell Alvin that he should rather become a knight than a Witcher. Or that his powers are a gift, or that he should master his own fate. All of this is later reflected during a conversation with the adult Jacques. As for the Fantastic Racism issue: It is true that the Order of the Flaming Rose (or rather, the Church of the Eternal Fire, which the Order belongs to) is pretty bad in the 'treating non-humans' matter (to put it nicely). However, while Jacques sees humans as the pinnacle of evolution, he himself never goes into outright despicable territory like other members of the church, or even some non-humans (many Scoia'tael are just as bad as the people they are fighting against). He merely concluded that humans alone are fit to survive the catastrophe and thus sees the suffering of non-humans as irrelevant, as they wouldn't survive anyway. Also, another factor? When we see Alvin for the last time, before he disappears into the time stream to become Jacques off-screen, he is held hostage by a bunch of Scoia'tael, alongside an entire village. That terrifying experience certainly strenghted his resolve. And the final, probably most tragic of points? In the third game Geralt finds a letter Alvin/Jacques left behind for his father figure. Turns out he already tried stopping the White Frost. He tried saving the world without bloodshed, and failed. The entire plan in the first game? A desperate, last opportunity resort. And he basically begs Geralt to help him finish his plan, as he is his last hope.Charismatic? Master Planer?
Most definitely. He has the publics support, is a highly skilled sorcerer, he took over the dying Order of the White Rose and completely reshaped it into the most powerful Knight order in the entire country. Plus, his whole plan was almost flawlessly executed. He made power plays throughout the underworld and the high society, manipulated Temeria into a civil war, which basically forced the king to either give him the means to squash the rebellion, or do nothing and look weak. In the end, all of it only fails because Geralt is the better combatant, and even that is a little ambiguous, as throughout most of the final confrontation, Jacques tries to sway him to his side, which makes sense, considering Geralt being his adoptive father.Is he a bastard? Too much?
To directly quote the mans last words: [But]....that sword is for monsters! (as Geralt plunges his silver sword into the Grand Master's chest, finally ending his life) Yes, what Jacques did throughout the first game is pretty bad. But as I've said before, one can't help but feel for him in a certain way. And no matter how despicable he gets, he always acts in a friendly and respectful way. He onces even saves Geralt's life from a bunch of swamp monsters, despite the man being the biggest threat to his plans. And during the massacre in Vizima? He is holding a feast for the civilian population, harboring them from the fighting inside the Cloister of the Flaming Rose.Conclusion?
Jacques really puts the bastard on the magnificent part, but yeah, I think he qualifies.Edited by Forenperser on Jul 13th 2018 at 12:58:42 PM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian![]()
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Not really? I mean yeah, in the comics it is said that he was a member of the Wehrmacht, but I think that was a (pretty amateurish) mistake on Ennis' parts, considering that Preacher is set in the 90's, Herr Starr isn't that old and he was member of an Anti-Terrorist Squad (in the series it's the GSG 9 btw).
Plus, he never espouses any racist views, afair.
Edited by Forenperser on Jul 13th 2018 at 10:52:07 AM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianHe’s also a straight up Butt-Monkey at best which an MB never should be. And by the end of the series he’s so bitter and evil he’s right out of this. And no to Cassidy.
But yes to Jacques
Jacques de Aldersberg
Also. I have give up on Kyubey being this trope but argue that he's not a WIE is weird to say the least.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 13th 2018 at 1:49:02 PM
Watch me destroying my countryFrom what I recall of Starr his views were... weird, such as thinking a man raping him turned him gay, which even an assistant of his points out is ridiculous. He says he’s not a racist but is treated with so little dignity by the work I can’t see him keeping. Ennis seems to have the same hate on for Starr he gave me for the Saint of Killers but that’s neither here nor there.
Not really, it’s a point of debate amongst fandom and while I’m inclined to agree with you him being one prior to Rebellion, I’m not gonna write it off as “weird” that someone doesn’t think he’s a WIE.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 13th 2018 at 3:21:29 PM
