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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#23376: Jul 23rd 2020 at 1:40:49 PM

[up] Because he's a boring Scrappy with no real charm.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 23rd 2020 at 3:47:25 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#23377: Jul 23rd 2020 at 1:43:00 PM

Being super , super bland. Like no charisma whatsoever.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#23378: Jul 23rd 2020 at 1:49:25 PM

Yeah. He's the one thing Gotham did way better then Arrow. But that's neither here nor there.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 23rd 2020 at 3:50:47 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#23380: Jul 23rd 2020 at 2:22:28 PM

Before I propose my Star Trek character I noticed something odd with Q's write up. It mentions him joining the Enterprise crew twice once in the first sentence and once in the third. If people don't mind I'd like to remove the first mention unless I'm misunderstanding and these are two different instances.

Old

  • Q is a clever transcendent being who masquerades as a rambunctious psychopath and tries to join the Enterprise Crew after being kicked out of the Q Continuum, demonstrating his powers by teleporting the Enterprise across the galaxy. Forcing the Enterprise to confront the terrifying Borg and for Jean-Luc Picard to beg for Q's help, Q saves them out of respect for Picard's humility. After the Q Continuum strips him of his powers, Q asked to be teleported to the Enterprise, knowing that Picard's nobility will force Picard to protect him against his various enemies. After regaining his powers Q uses his gifts on Picard to let him change his past so a series of events will allow him to avoid an untimely death, though at the cost of not being as highly-promoted within the Federation, in order to teach him the importance of learning from mistakes and taking risks. In his final appearance in the series, Q is tasked by the Continuum to destroy humanity, but Q does so in a way that Picard can prevent, where Picard creates a Time Paradox when Q shifts him through time and Q provides hints to Picard to resolve the paradox and save humanity.

New

  • Q is a clever transcendent being who masquerades as a rambunctious psychopath, demonstrating his powers by teleporting the Enterprise across the galaxy. Forcing the Enterprise to confront the terrifying Borg and for Jean-Luc Picard to beg for Q's help, Q saves them out of respect for Picard's humility. After the Q Continuum strips him of his powers, Q asked to be teleported to the Enterprise, knowing that Picard's nobility will force Picard to protect him against his various enemies. After regaining his powers Q uses his gifts on Picard to let him change his past so a series of events will allow him to avoid an untimely death, though at the cost of not being as highly-promoted within the Federation, in order to teach him the importance of learning from mistakes and taking risks. In his final appearance in the series, Q is tasked by the Continuum to destroy humanity, but Q does so in a way that Picard can prevent, where Picard creates a Time Paradox when Q shifts him through time and Q provides hints to Picard to resolve the paradox and save humanity.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#23382: Jul 23rd 2020 at 2:29:56 PM

[up][up] I'm fine with it.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:31:26 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#23383: Jul 23rd 2020 at 3:59:09 PM

Can I ask a question to you. How would you guys handle corruption here. I was planning to do Annihalter from mighty med here but he's a bit much of an orcus who sadly doesn't do enough. I do think his second in command a brainwashed heroine Skylar storm would be a better candidate. She has the heroes through loops and even usurps and nearly kills her boss talking over the Big Bad position. What do you think?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#23384: Jul 23rd 2020 at 3:59:57 PM

Does Q do anything of note in his other appearances? I know that he's shown up in other shows and if there's anything interesting in them he may need to be moved to the Multiple Works section. I can look at them if people want me to and I may look into some of the Trek novels in the future as well.

[up]That depends on how much control she has over her actions. If she just been turned evil and is allowed to act on her own accord I'd say she's fine but if her actions are directly influenced by the Big Bad more often than not then I'd say no.

Edited by papyru30 on Jul 23rd 2020 at 5:02:35 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#23385: Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:00:50 PM

Over said he doesn't which is why he kept it to just next generation.

[up]It's The former. He gives her a lot of leeway to do stuff and she comes up with a lot on her own.

Edited by miraculous on Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:04:59 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#23386: Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:04:57 PM

[tup] to Talia. Alright here's my write-ups for my duo:

  • Hotel Artemis
    • Jean Thomas is The Nurse who runs the titular hospital that criminals go; the criminals must be members ship to enter the hotel, where she has a non-member thrown out when he demands access. She also has a secret tunnel uses to sneak an injured cop into the hotel and uses the same tunnel to escape with her remaining patients when Crosby Franklin and his goons breaches the hotel after she tricks Crosby's father into confessing to murdering her son. When Crosby blocks her escape, Jean helps Waikiki kill him before the two part ways.
    • Nice is a seductive yet professional assassin who was hired to kill The Wolf King. Having already wounded him, Nice injures herself so that she can gain entrance to Hotel Artemis, knowing that The Wolf King will have to go there to get patched up. When the Wolf King arrives, Nice blows up the power box leaving him vulnerable for her to kill; This also leads to Honolulu's death and when confronted about it by his brother, Waikiki, Nice gets him to lower his gun by claim not knowing Honolulu was on life support and reminding him of their past relationship. Nice later volunteers to take on The Wolf King's men allowing Waikiki and The Nurse to escape, while implying to have escaped the onslaught unscathed.

Edited by G-Editor on Jul 23rd 2020 at 1:24:18 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#23388: Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:06:53 PM

miraculous: Oh I remember her like that. I think she is an easy keep. I don't think the corruption thing is not a problem.

papyru: As for Q. I don't think he does anything of note on any other show.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 23rd 2020 at 6:09:23 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#23389: Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:11:40 PM

With Ravok's blessing here's one I've been excited for:

What's the work?

The Big O is a Batman-inspired anime with a healthy dose of Mind Screw thrown in especially near the end. Following protagonist Roger Smith a "negotiator" for Paradigm City, Roger's job mostly consists of getting into conflicts with bad guys and having to fight them with his giant robo "Megadeus" with the title name. We learn that Paradigm City's citizens bizarrely lost their memories years ago for unknown reasons. As the whole cast tries to decipher what the hell is going on, one man delves into the truth with much more tenacity and success than anyone else.

Who is Schwarzwald? What has he done?

One a reporter in Paradigm named Michael Seebach, Schwarzwald became enraged at the press for censoring his work to find the truth of the mass amnesia, culminating with an attempt on his life leaving him permanently scarred. Taking up his moniker, Schwarzwald, he began a vigilante search on his own, searching the catacombs beneath Paradigm and happens upon a Megadeus Archetype, which engages with Roger and Big O as Schwarzwald is seemingly killed.

When Roger is assigned to give him his severance pay, Schwarzwald refuses to be bribed by the corporation that tried to kill him and fights Smith in a mummy-like, bandage wrapped Megadeus he has procured for himself, the "Big Duo". Luring Roger to a masquerade party to show him the corruption of Paradigm City, Schwarzwald drugs the classist elites attending, causing them to madly jump to their deaths and states his intent to pass on the truth of the amnesia to the city. Fighting with Roger once more, Schwarzwald philosophically muses over the nature of the Megadeus and gives a vague statement to events being similar to those 40 years ago, before vanishing.

Though offscreen for the rest of the show, we learn Schwarzwald's seemingly insane ramblings predict of events to come, even after we're told the man himself has apparently been dead for a long time, with a shot lingering on a body in the water indicating his death. Though this isn't enough to stop the mad bastard, he apparently passes on the truth of the world to Roger and in a truly awesome moment delivers a posthumous "The Reason You Suck" Speech to the monstrous Alan Gabriel as he tries to pilot Big Duo, willing the machine to devour the bastard.

Actions and Personality?

While he's off his rocker, this is portrayed in an awesome, fun manner and he shows his gumption in managing to twist a knife in Big Bad Alex Rosewater's elitist system in the party scene, as while as ultimately coming to the truth under all of the lies and confusion in the work. He can tango with Roger easily, is clearly the most erudite and intelligent member of the cast and even handles his insanity in a hilariously cool manner. Pass for Schwarzwald here.

Mitigating Factors?

The show is quite meta and it's not quite clear what's happened at the end, with Roger remarking that even in death Schwarzwald still seems to be searching even after the death of his body. What is clear however, is through willingness to risk the city, kill and never give up, Schwarzwald does come upon the truth of Paradigm, passes it on to Roger and delivers karmic punishment upon the evil that is Alan.

Verdict?

I'm saying yeah here.

Edited by 43110 on Jul 23rd 2020 at 8:27:40 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#23393: Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:14:35 PM

[tup]Schwarzwald.

So my question...Could I please have a response

Edited by miraculous on Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:14:56 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#23394: Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:23:13 PM

If the corrupted version of the character acts as her own thing she's fair game. Agency isn't a problem unless the corrupted version isn't treated as their own character.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#23397: Jul 23rd 2020 at 4:46:10 PM

Is there a two a reporter... Ok bad pun based on a spelling mistake. [tup]Schwarzwald.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#23398: Jul 23rd 2020 at 5:26:55 PM

Yes to Schwarzwald. Now, here's by Star Trek candidate from Star Trek: The Next Generation S1 E8 "The Battle" and Star Trek The Next Generation S 7 E 21 Bloodlines, DaiMon Bok

Who is DaiMon Bok and what does he do?

Nine years ago when Picard was captain of the USS Stargazer he was attacked by an unidentified vessel and was forced to destroy it by inventing “The Picard Maneuver.” As it turns out the vessel was Ferengi and the DaiMon of it was Bok’s son and the encounter was called “The Battle of Maxima” by the Ferengi. Bok desired revenge and so he managed to get ahold of two ‘forbidden’ devices known only as “thought makers” and discovered the Stargazer which Picard was forced to abandon. Bok hid one of the devices on the Stargazer and created a false captain’s log saying that Picard actually destroyed the ship without provocation.

Bok then asked for the Enterprise to meet with him and had them wait three days before contacting them, using the devices to start changing Picard’s mind, starting with a headache. When he finally contacts the Enterprise he reveals the Stargazer to Picard, claiming that it is a gift (which is a surprising gesture from a Ferengi who are all very greedy). Bok then continues to mess with Picard, using the device aboard the Stargazer to amplify the signal from the one on his own ship, and convincing his first officer that the ship Picard destroyed was not dangerous.

The device and the false log cause Picard to doubt that he really was attacked and eventually he teleports onto the Stargazer. Bok confronts him and reveals his motivations, and then uses the device to convince Picard that he’s back on the Stargazer and that it’s being attacked by the Enterprise, tricking him into reenacting the Battle of Maxima and intending for the Enterprise to destroy the Stargazer. This of course fails as Riker and Data are able to disable the Stargazer without destroying it and Bok is arrested by his First Officer.

6 years later Bok paid his way out of prison and started to plan his revenge once again. He reconfigured the DNA of Jason Vigo, the son of a woman that Picard once slept with, in order to make it appear that he is Picard’s son. He convinced a group of Ferengi that he is still a DaiMon and that they will hold Vigo for ransom. Throughout the episode Bok uses a Subspace Transporter to taunt Picard by warping onto the ship from lightyears away. Picard is able to track down Bok’s ship whereupon Jason is transported there and Bok sends Picard one last transmission, saying that he wants him to see Vigo one last time before he dies. Picard is able to jury rig his own Subspace Transporter and confronts Bok, informing the other Ferengi of his deception and forcing Bok to quietly surrender (Picard learned that Jason was not his son because he had a genetic disease that neither Picard nor his mother had).

Charming?

Kind of, the Ferengi all ooze sleaze and generally come off as untrustworthy. Bok is about as charming as he can be as a Ferengi and while no one completely trusts him, they mostly just accept his gift and move on. He's dropped all pretenses of charm in his second appearance, simply taunting Picard that he can't stop him from killing Jason. He’s also very good at convincing his fellow Ferengi of his deceptions.

Bastard? Too Much?

He’s definitely a bastard and clearly enjoys taking very personal revenge on Picard and especially in his second appearance enjoys twisting the knife. I’d argue that his motivations help balance it out.

I should mention that the Ferengi culture as we see is quite sexist and don’t understand why women are allowed to serve on starships however Bok never says anything really sexist, he comments on it briefly and just says that it’s “most interesting.”

Conclusion

I’d say yes

Edited by papyru30 on Jul 23rd 2020 at 6:31:28 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#23399: Jul 23rd 2020 at 6:08:38 PM

I'm iffy especially how you say he loses his charm. And forcing someone to relive a tragedy is quite bad... I'm abstaining for now.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP

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