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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#22726: Jul 10th 2020 at 2:16:06 PM

'Yes' to Khan, Jef, Ghost Dog, Moriarty, and Ghost especially, vaguely remember him but he was damn impressive.

Alrighty, here's a manga I been meaning to discuss, one of my favorite lesser-known ones...

What's the work?

Keyman: The Hand of Judgement is a Seinen manga that deals in film noir, Urban Fantasy, and even superhero genres!

Set in the metropolis Lockville City, populated with humans and animal-human hybrids called "Beastmen", our story follows detective Alex Rex, an anthropomorphic T-Rex as he investigates the mysterious murder of local superhero "Keyman" alongside a mysterious little girl who seems to know far more than she should...

An awesome story with a great cast of characters and genuinely unique twists, it's also home to some of the best villainous characters I've seen in manga in my time...including this one

Who is Dr. Necro? What makes her a candidate?

The poster girl for the entire manga and one of the few humans to have a starring role, Dr. Necro is a powerful witch with the body of a child, who spends the manga as a mysterious, helpful, yet ruthless partner to Alex Rex.

Years ago a witch on the run from her own magic organization for going rogue, Devonea Violet took the name "Dr. Necro" as she allied with fellow magician Clive. The duo, hoping to find the secrets to life and humanity, made a pact via sexual relations with the devil himself—later to be known as Butler—to access the "Double Helix of Life", the building blocks of all living things. After performing many sacrifices to create "keys" to the Double Helix (which literally entails turning people into keys), Necro and Clive managed to do just that...but unfortunately, the process drove Clive insane, caused him to commit suicide by turning himself into a key, and screwed with the Double Helix enough to create a whole new strain of humanity to be born, called "Beastmen."

Eventually having Clive's baby, Franck, Necro began brutally training the boy in magics, hoping to honor Clive's legacy and do what he had always wanted: Access the Double Helix and alter it to improve humankind and ascend them into perfection and happiness.

When Franck went on the run to escape Necro's abusive training and even started a family, Necro tracked him down to save him from an army of enemies seeking the deaths of her and her loved ones, Necro slaughtering them all with magic but not before they claimed the life of Franck's wife and plunged his daughter, Misery, into a coma.

Keeping Franck and Misery safe while continuing to try to get him to work towards altering humanity, Necro is shocked when Franck reveals that he plans to turn himself into a key to access the Double Helix and alter it to awaken Misery from her coma...though at first helping Franck, Necro has a last-minute epiphany that she truly loves her son, and chops his arm off to stop him from using it in the sacrifice ritual.

Franck shoots Necro dead for thwarting this and dooming Misery...only for Necro to move her soul into the body of Misery, possessing the girl and fleeing from Franck with his severed arm as the man succumbed to a lust for revenge against his mother and began scheming.

Necro, her awakened love for Franck having helped her come to the realization and horror of all her crimes, begins working towards stopping her son's plans and redeeming herself. Creating a bevy of clones of Misery's body and storing the original in a safe place, Necro uses these clones throughout the story, always backup copies in case her current body dies or is seriously wounded.

Travelling to the metropolis known as Lockville City, Necro, realizing that Franck has begun creating superpowered "Keymen"—basically turning people into superheroes then turning them into the desired "keys" when they're power is at its peak—and allowing them to function as crime fighters in Lockville. Necro, deducing Franck's plans, uses the severed arm of his she kept to create a clone of him, dubbing it "Phantom", and uses Phantom to hunt down and kill the Keymen before they are turned into keys by Franck, thus keeping his plans at bay.

Necro then tracks down top detective Alex Rex, playing the part of helpful medium to him to get him dancing to her tune of investigating the Keymen conspiracy. Though Franck sends several Keymen to capture Necro and kill Alex and others, Necro skillfully outsmarts the enemy Keymen and finds their weaknesses to destroy them, and has Phantom stand guard over several members of the Lockville police.

After using her criminal connections to weed out a Beastman trafficking network connected to Franck, Necro infiltrates and exposes the network to Alex and the police, and when one of Franck's psychopathic Co-Dragons, Norma, transforms into a Kaiju and tries to kill Necro, Necro stalls Norma with taunts and manipulations in time for backup to arrive and help her take down Norma—all while trying to genuinely convince Norma to abandon serving Franck lest she lose her life.

Sending Phantom to confront Norma, Necro has him reveal his true face to her—that being a clone of Franck—and uses her Yandere love of Franck to manipulate her with Phantom...Necro points her in the direction of Alex, saying he has answers to why Phantom resembles Franck, and then secretly follows Norma and Alex to Franck's hideout.

Shrugging off the fact that she basically used Alex as bait, Necro confronts her son and...actually talks things out with him, revealing how sorry she is for everything she put him through and offering to work with him to properly resurrect Misery without having to sacrifice each other. Though Butler strikes and seemingly kills Franck to prevent the two from working together, Necro swoops in and saves Franck, revealing that—much like with Misery's body—she had made a bevy of lifeless clones of Franck for just such an occasion, and transplants Franck into one of these.

Necro and Franck then work together and combine their learned magics to enter the Double Helix and barely alter it to retrieve Misery's soul and return it to her body. Necro, using the Double Helix to create a new body for herself in the process, has a heart to heart with Misery and Franck, musing that it's the first time she's felt like a legitimate family with anyone, before leaving the two alone in peace.

Fully aware of Butler's plans to access the Double Helix and doom all life on Earth, Necro works with Franck to begin scheming against Butler. Earlier having retrieved Keyman parts from Franck's lair in their initial confrontation, Necro saved the life of Alex's police partner, Pete, by turning him into a Keyman, which she perfects and turns him into the most powerful one yet.

When Butler captures Pete Misery and plans to use them as the doorway into the Double Helix to succeed in his plans, Necro arrives on the scene and reveals how thoroughly herself and Franck played Butler, as Franck orchestrates Misery's rescue and Necro herself opens the door to the Double Helix with Pete and unleashes its energies onto Butler at the wrong time, overwhelming him and dragging him into its energies, wiping him from all existence and saving humankind.

Necro then reveals that, in order to close the Double Helix door once and for all, herself and Franck will travel inside and close it from the other side, rectifying their many mistakes against humanity at the cost of their own lives. Making Alex promise to take care of Misery for them, Necro—after revealing that she had a backup possibility of using Pete to shut it forever as well at the cost of his own life if Necro or Franck died before this point—steps into the Double Helix door hand in hand with her son Franck, both of them content with their final moments as they shut the door from the inside and spare the world from anymore tampering with the Double Helix.

Is Necro magnificent?

Very much so. Necro plays pretty much everyone to her tune at different intervals, all while being a genuinely charming and likeable little witch, using Misery's form to present herself as powerless when in reality she's one of the strongest characters in the story.

Necro does everything to save Franck from irredeemability and death, to help him retrieve Misery's soul, and to stop Butler...she succeeds in all of the above with flourish and a smile, the few times she is overwhelmed or outplayed by Butler or Franck quickly being turned in her favor as she uses enemy and ally alike as pawns, though nonetheless genuinely caring about Alex and even minor characters.

Only thing about Necro that diminishes her dignity a bit is that Alex's ex-wife finds her utterly adorable in a child's form and often forcefully dresses her up in princess outfits or bathes her while Necro loudly protests, but it's all done in humorous, quirky fashion, it's nothing to disqualify Necro—rather giving her legitimate interactions with characters even if they lead to her being used as a dress up doll while she simultaneously schemes to take down the devil himself.

Is Necro a bitch?

Oooooooh boy.

Necro in the past flashbacks is...a legitimately horrible person. She works with Clive to sacrifice innocents in creating keys to the Double Helix—one of which was a baby Necro buys from a woman for suitable cash—she makes a pact with Butler to alter humankind into a more peaceful, perfect race, she viciously trains and abuses her own son Franck to make him a magician, and when Franck lashes out and kills her...Necro possesses the comatose body of Franck's daughter and flees.

It's all damn wicked and really drives home how bad Necro was...but by the present? Necro is firmly in Anti-Hero territory, going out of her way to protect innocents, genuinely caring about Alex and others, and all her goal is pushing for stopping Butler and helping Franck. And though she's firmly on the side of good in the present, Necro still is using Phantom to systematically hunt down and kill Keymen despite knowing that they're (for the most part) total innocents subjected to experiments by Franck, and she also uses Alex, Pete, etc as pawns and notes that though it's only for last resorts, she wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice them to save the world from Butler.

The only act Necro takes that might make some iffy is that her introductory scene to Alex is a comedic showcase of her magic, when Alex refuses to believe she is a witch, Necro casually casts a spell that makes ditzy police secretary and resident Ms. Fanservice Flor suddenly become sultry and seductive, even taking her top off for Alex and Pete and making them both shriek in shock before Necro ends the spell and Flor bashfully flees the room....but I wouldn't say this is skeevy or "sexual assault" related though, it's a totally comedic, lighthearted scene used to show Necro as a witch and give Flor more Ms. Fanservice scenes, it's not at all played like a creepy sexual crime or any some such.

Final Verdict?

Definitely yes.

Edited by Ravok on Jul 10th 2020 at 2:23:14 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#22727: Jul 10th 2020 at 2:34:25 PM

[tup]necro

Is she that purple haired girl on the image in the trope page just out of curiosity ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#22730: Jul 10th 2020 at 2:46:28 PM

@Miraculous: That is indeed her—well, it's her in Misery's body, but that's the form Necro is in for most of the manga...add another Loli MB to a tally, cuz I'm sure that's a list in the making [lol]

Edited by Ravok on Jul 10th 2020 at 2:48:12 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#22733: Jul 10th 2020 at 3:44:36 PM

[tup] to Khan Noonien Singh, Jef Costello, Ghost Dog, Professor James Moriarty and Ghost.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#22735: Jul 10th 2020 at 5:07:35 PM

Yes to Necro and Ghost (I've wondered about people counting from that show, I was kind of thinking that Mr. Fix or the Manderan, specifically Gene, could count)

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#22736: Jul 10th 2020 at 5:08:27 PM

Necro this thread is quite active it doesn't need a necro... okay I'll see myself out.

[tup]Necro, Ghost.

From reading the EP, is Franck himself worth an EP, or is he too outplayed by his mother?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#22738: Jul 10th 2020 at 5:19:24 PM

@pap: Doesn't fix end up as a tool for Hammer. I think Manadarin is worth a discussion here but he's in the entire thing so it would take much longer for me to get to it. If you want he's all yours.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#22739: Jul 10th 2020 at 5:30:16 PM

Reading through the trope pages, Fix is still able to mess with Hammer even when under his control and apparently turns him into a zombie.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#22740: Jul 10th 2020 at 5:30:39 PM

@jjj: Yes, Franck will actually be my next proposal. Necro and him run rings around each other but neither one really one-ups the other, and they ultimately ally to take down Butler. Franck's gonna be a bit more of a discussion due to some of the methods he goes to to accomplish his goals, but he's absolutely still worthy of a proposal, which will be coming shortly.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#22741: Jul 10th 2020 at 5:41:15 PM

Awesome!

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#22742: Jul 10th 2020 at 6:34:30 PM

[tup]to Ghost

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22743: Jul 10th 2020 at 6:45:11 PM

As we talked it over a bit, yeah Franck is worth the post.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#22744: Jul 10th 2020 at 7:05:47 PM

[tup] Ghost.

... Gonna have to delay my Mercurymon EP. Again. [lol]

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22745: Jul 10th 2020 at 7:13:33 PM

Post get deleted or something?

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#22747: Jul 10th 2020 at 7:23:30 PM

I'd recommend writing it somewhere else and copy past it here so stuff doesn't get lost. I use Google Docs for all of my stuff

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#22748: Jul 10th 2020 at 7:44:50 PM

I had that problem when I was writing up my Killinger EP. It's something that the admins need to work on.

[down]I would periodically copy it to a word document, write, and then copy it back.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 10th 2020 at 10:56:17 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22749: Jul 10th 2020 at 7:45:23 PM

I just write mine in google docs like papyru.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#22750: Jul 10th 2020 at 8:09:42 PM

I send PM s to myself or other tropers to save what I do. Either that or save it in text in my Messages on my phone.


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