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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#22702: Jul 10th 2020 at 9:47:23 AM

[tup] to Khan, Jef, Ghost Dog and Moriarty

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#22703: Jul 10th 2020 at 9:51:31 AM

Yes to Lyon, Khan, Jef, Ghost Dog and Moriarty.

I think I might have a Joshua quote about him mentioning how Sho Minamimoto is a loose cannon that's fun to have around, but I'll keep looking in case I find a better one.

Here's a quote.

"Did you think you were special? Every Player had to give up something. Everybody makes sacrifices." -Yoshiya "Joshua" Kiryu

Edited by Klavice on Jul 10th 2020 at 9:54:46 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#22704: Jul 10th 2020 at 10:00:41 AM

Definitely say [tup] to Khan! Amazing villain! Yes I would put him under the Film section on the page.

Funny enough, speaking of Khan, I am rewatching Into Darkness right now after watching the 2009 film last night. I also bought the tie-in comic about Khan too last night. Again Lighty, you and that comic really saved me on that one. Least I could do.

[down]Yeah. I guess that will work.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 10th 2020 at 10:19:02 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#22705: Jul 10th 2020 at 10:03:11 AM

[up] I think we decided to put the original Khan on the top of the page in a multiple works section like we do for Redjac on the Star Trek. Since he originally appeared in the Original Series before moving to the second movie.

Edited by Bullman on Jul 10th 2020 at 12:10:50 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22706: Jul 10th 2020 at 10:13:54 AM

Definite yes to another Moriarty.

Not feeling the Joshua quote.

Edited by 43110 on Jul 10th 2020 at 1:15:41 PM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#22707: Jul 10th 2020 at 10:34:14 AM

Yes to Kahn, Jef and Ghost Dog, and Moriarty.

Edited by papyru30 on Jul 10th 2020 at 11:43:01 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#22708: Jul 10th 2020 at 10:44:42 AM

[tup]Ghost Dog.

Moriarity seems like an easy keeper. Real quick just to get this out of the way. His character sheet lists Politically Incorrect Villain (This is zero context), and the main page also lists Politically Incorrect Villain but it says he kidnapped the Prime minister (that's it). Is this a misinterpretation of Politically Incorrect Villain, the person adding it somehow thinking that Politically Incorrect Villain means you'd threaten a politician? Or is there more to that?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Godzillawolf Since: Jul, 2010
#22709: Jul 10th 2020 at 10:51:19 AM

Yeah, that seems odd and doesn't really fit him.

I don't remember Moriarty really doing anything like that.

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#22710: Jul 10th 2020 at 10:51:23 AM

[tup] to Ghost Dog, Jef, Moriarty and of course KAAAHHHHN!!!

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#22711: Jul 10th 2020 at 10:52:43 AM

Yeah I think I'll delete those then. Keeping my [tup].

Edit: Oh you beat me to it. Just make sure you add an edit reason next time.

[down]Yeah. I was thinking this is probably a hilarious misinterpretation of what that trope means. I just wanted to be sure.

Edited by jjjj2 on Jul 10th 2020 at 1:54:49 PM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22712: Jul 10th 2020 at 10:53:31 AM

Right off the bat: that sounds like the hilarious misinterpretation I've seen of the trope where the villain takes part in activities which hinder democracy (Apparently some tropers think that's what it's about). Denbigh from Spectre? Was listed as it because he thinks democracy is a farcical system.

Actually here it is in all its glory:

  • Politically Incorrect Villain: Expresses ignorant opinions on real-world issues, thinks that 24/7 surveillance will bring the people into total submission, and advocates the replacement of field agents like 007 with Attack Drones.

Edited by 43110 on Jul 10th 2020 at 1:54:21 PM

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#22713: Jul 10th 2020 at 11:12:48 AM

It’s a rather literal interpretation of “politically incorrect”.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#22714: Jul 10th 2020 at 11:14:29 AM

Some people just don't read a trope description barring it's name sadly.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22715: Jul 10th 2020 at 11:24:37 AM

Tries to assassinate political figure? Why, how politically incorrect of you!

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#22716: Jul 10th 2020 at 11:52:25 AM

lmaooooo I'm dead

[tup] Ghost Dog, Jef, to another Moriarty, and Kahn.

Added Lyon and his quote to the drafts btw.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#22717: Jul 10th 2020 at 12:27:36 PM

Yes to Jef, Ghost Dog, Moriarty, and KHAAAAAAN!

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#22718: Jul 10th 2020 at 12:31:29 PM

I'll have someone for you soon from another Marvel animated show. A really cool bad guy. So get ready.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#22720: Jul 10th 2020 at 1:00:02 PM

[tup] to Jef, Ghost Dog Moriarty, and KHAN!

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#22721: Jul 10th 2020 at 1:35:01 PM

So heres mine.

Whats the work?

Things are bad: Tony Stark's father was just murdered. Tony didn't even get to show Dad his fancy new suit, but luckily it's what allowed Tony to survive the attack on his plane. However, it left his heart permanently damaged. Obadiah Stane took over his father's company and has completely shut Tony out of his family's business. Things only get worse when Tony suspects Stane of being the one behind his father's death, but cannot find any proof to implicate him. Rhodey's running out of excuses for Tony's absences from school, and if all that isn't bad enough, now Tony has to take care of his dad's unfinished business of collecting the five Makluan Rings before the Mandarin obtains their power. Oh, he also has to graduate high school or he loses the rights to inheriting his family's company when he turns eighteen due to a legal loophole. It's almost too much pressure for one person to take.

Iron Man: Armored Adventures blended together the original comic continuity, the Ultimate continuity, and even the movie continuity, and managed to distill various aspects from all the previous Iron Man adaptions while still injecting plenty of its own creativity into this fresh and new continuity. There is a great emphasis on story this time around, with Tony Stark traveling across the globe hunting down a group of ancient artifacts, called the Makluan Rings, that his late father was also researching. On his quest, he's aided by various allies and attacked by various enemies, many of whom have past ties to his late father, as he searches for a way to finish the work that his father started and save his family's company before it's too late.

Who is Ghost?

A snarky, suave and intelligent mercenary played by Michael Dobson who always gets his job done for a price. Ghost first appears in the epsiode Chasing Ghosts, Ghost is hired by AIM to assassinate Tony but finds his attempt failing thanks to Madame Masque using her shape shifting abilities to cover for him. Anyway Tony finds out Masque (whose real identity is one of his friends witney has been masquerasding as him to save him) and finds out Ghost is after him. Well on a walk home thier, attacked by Ghost who uses his intantgibility and teleportation powers to evade Tony. He then kidnaps Witney later and uses her as a bargaining chip to draw Tony out. Tony has Rhodey go using Masque's disguise technique well he goes as Iron man and fights Ghost. Iron man states that Ghost will tire and be beaten eventually but Ghost calmly states he can just leave and can kill Tony any time he wants to leaving them in a weird postion of not being able to do anything...So Witney offers him more to pay him off. Ghost accepts and leaves.

Returning in Designed only for Chaos, Ghost infiltrates the SHIELD hover carier on a job from AIM to kidnap the supervillain Living lazer. He makes his way on board and disables Mariah Hill before confronting Tony whose being trying to cure Lazer of his fatal condition. Ghost absorbs Lazer into a device and Tony states how will ghost get away with hundreds of agents on board. Ghost calmly states he has a contingency, he uses an empy generator to shut down the engines of the hovercarrier and make it crash, as all of shield is bust=y, he races to the top of the hover carrier where a ship to take him away is present. Tony tries to stop him but Ghost calmy states that with the detonaer left thier, he could either come after him or save the ship and everyone on board. Tony does the former and ghost gets away. Ghost in the AIM bulding discovers that their going to use lazer as a power source to create Modok, with Ghost snarking on for a perfect cyborg hes really ugly. Anyway Tony tracks them to the base as iron man and the AIM leader demands Ghost kill Iron man but Ghost just slinks away, laughing that they just dint have enough money for something like that.

Anyway Ghost returns in Ghost in the machine, where hes hired by Obadiah Stane to steal Iron man's suit tech. Ghost lies in wait and when he sees iron man on one of his patrols come close, he plants an emp device on the nearby police copter, causing it to crash. Iron man saves it and takes the tech....which had a tracking device secretly. Ghost using it to take him to Iron man's lair and discovers that Tony is iron man. Ghost records tony as iron man as leverage. Tony has his armour locked up to save it but Ghost just knocks him out and steals the schematics while taking Tony's helmet so he cant follow him. Tony escapes and goes in his stealth suit adn tracks him to his apartment but Ghost blows it up as a distraction and escapes. Feigining an injury, he lures tony into a trap and then knocks him out. Tony wakes up and gets war machine to help him go after it but Ghosts uses stealth and solid holigrams he stole from Madame masque (soligrams as Ghost snarkily refers to them as) and beats them off.

Anyway ghost sells the tech to obdiah but double crosses him and also sells it to Justin Hammer to double his profits who will use it to make the Iron monger and Titanium man suits respectivly. Iron man fights ghost with ghist stating that its Nothing Personal...just business. Anyway Tony uses Ghosts's emp device to shut his tech down and the two engage. Ghost feigns defeat and then reveals his ace, he has a backup power generaor which lasts for 10 minutes. He suses his intangibility powers to put his hand in Iron man's chest and threaten to crush it. Now calmy Ghost explains that Tony's identity is his insurance policy..when tony turns 18 and inherits all that cash. Hes going to use this to blacmail him which is why he didnt reveal it to anyone. Tony ends up letting ghost go when ghost correctly deduces that Tony ismt a killer and so wont finish him.

Anyway in his final appearnce, Fuguitive from SHIELD, Ghost is hired by Obadiah to steal a flash drive controlling vibranium robots which was created by shield but stolen by master thief Black widow under justin hammer's orders. Ghost defeats Justin's goons who were meant to be at the pick up and executes them. This forces Widow to have to meet Justin person for the drop. Anyway Tony arrives to try and get it but Ghost arrives and snatches it. Widow, Iron man and Ghost have a three way battle for it but Ghost prevails through cunning. Ghost then smartly collapses the builind around stark and widow knwoing the weapon wont hurt him but that tony would save natasha instead of going after him. And thats the end.

Magnificent?

Ghost defines smooth criminial. Hes calm, snarky, collected and highly intelligent. When he gets a job hell make sure to complete it at any cost unless he gets a better deal. He expertly lures Tony into a trap and had him beat till masque paid him off by just explaiing that he has time on his side. Collapses the hover carrier as a distraction to get away. Ghost in the machine is where he truly comes to greatness. He lays a trap for iron man...gets his lair , suit tech and identity and double crosses stane to get richer. He outwits Tony 's attemots to catch him and ultimately plays his feelings of being a hero in order to get his victories. All in an utterly cool and intelligent villain.

Bastard ?

Ghost is bad. He collapses the hover carrier which could kill hundreds , tries to kill natasha and nearly downs a police copter among other stuff. Thing is Ghost is a pragmatic villain first. Gratuitous villany isnt his thing. Everything serves a purpose and as he says to Tony...theirs nothing personal just business. Thta hes just such a cool badguy.

Conclusion ?

Easy keep.

Edited by miraculous on Jul 10th 2020 at 1:36:18 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP

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