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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22151: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:11:35 PM

Regardless of where this goes, it seems on the fence and a discussion I'm pleased to see us having.

Also, since it feels like one where this is going to be necessary:

Yes: Lighty, user, G, mir, 43, Doc, Kylo, Satoshi, Austin, Imperial, Riley, Newton, Duck (13)

No: erazor, Awesome, someguy (3)

Abstain: j, hit, Library, Sky, papyru, Klavice (6)

Edited by 43110 on Jun 28th 2020 at 11:59:32 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#22152: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:18:04 PM

I mean, when you consider that Obito was an orphan and that Rin has been pretty much the closest person to him in his life than it isn't just about "Oh my crush died. I am going to start a war and remake the world in my image".

But yeah, it could have definitely been executed better.

Edited by username2527 on Jun 28th 2020 at 6:20:25 AM

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#22154: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:22:34 PM

I know it's not just about "my crush died", but again, the way it's portrayed is butchered so hard that I didn't feel any sense of awe or pity with Obito's motivations. I found him borderline laughable.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#22155: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:24:44 PM

[tup] to Obito....in a case of looking at things from a purely objective standpoint.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#22156: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:26:16 PM

I'll abstain on Obito. Feels like I need to watch Naruto to give a proper opinion on him.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22157: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:33:46 PM

@ Kylo, I get where you're coming from... he fumbles and it's contentious if he's got enough control over events but we've had similar cases and the more I look at it the more I catch myself thinking "I just don't wanna call him magnificent."

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#22158: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:48:04 PM

Yeah, I will give Obito an [tup] myself. He’s my candidate after all.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#22159: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:49:42 PM

...slight "yes" for Obito.

227someguy I hate spoilers Since: Apr, 2017
I hate spoilers
#22160: Jun 28th 2020 at 6:59:30 PM

I'm with Awesomekid. There is nothing "Magnificent" about someone who operated on a childhood crush, especially when said crush wouldn't want him to kill so many people to carry out his goal, even if he did eventually pull a Heel–Face Turn, so [tdown] from me.

[down]I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to dislike him for that reason if I intend to work on another Tragic Villain (especially if I complained about said villain getting [tdown]'d because people didn't like him).

Edited by 227someguy on Jun 28th 2020 at 10:15:53 AM

Everyone look at my sandbox
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22161: Jun 28th 2020 at 7:03:24 PM

Your vote is your vote but as for the reasoning: Tragic Villain has pretty frequent crossover here. We shouldn't disqualify someone solely on the basis that they aren't following what you'd figure to be the wishes of their deceased loved one(s), that's a double standard from how we've been operating.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#22162: Jun 28th 2020 at 7:07:15 PM

After thinking it over, [tup] to Obito

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#22163: Jun 28th 2020 at 7:09:10 PM

Eh. Obito can go up. It sounds like he hits the criteria just fine. I never liked Naruto in the first place so I've got no real feelings on the matter.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#22164: Jun 28th 2020 at 7:10:06 PM

Is that an upvote or an abstain?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22165: Jun 28th 2020 at 7:11:27 PM

'can go up' seems like a yes.

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#22167: Jun 28th 2020 at 7:30:21 PM

[tup] Obito

OK, so the ambigious thing about Kokichi. You see, while he was able to derail the masterminds plan with the Killing Game, ruining the scenario the producers of the show and the secret host in the game set, if we believe what the host said that his personality was actually artificially made for the show, then the Kokichi we see only manage to do what he did was because of the implants the masterminds gave. Although admittedly Kokichi went so off their initial expectation as a scheming liar and scapegoat for the mastermind backfired horribly and there are signs the personality tampering and a lot of other things like how the cast volunteered the game has holes in it, especially with characters like him and Korekiyo.

Although there are signs about the personality tampering actually being true in a way, like how Kaede was from before she was in the Killing Game into how she is in the Killing Game, and even Kokichi seemed to be different from the little we seen which ultimately is the biggest reason I can't really propose him yet. Kokichi is dead, but as we know, death isn't always the end of a character's story with his story being fleshed out further if V3's plot line continues to the next installment.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22168: Jun 28th 2020 at 8:14:38 PM

That's an... interesting scenario. Might be best to wait and see as you said, since the implications seem to hint that he's doing his own thing but it's still at best this trope being "hinted at" like Mantorok from Eternal Darkness.

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#22169: Jun 28th 2020 at 8:25:33 PM

[up] I mean he is, his actions in Chapter 5 is completely against the baddies... but the same time his cunning and intelligence could be a result of the bad guys implanting it on him and it ultimately backfiring terribly. I mean it's just ambiguous, but there are signs that it could be true. There's incosistencies about their entire plan like the cast volunteering... but the same time there are signs they have also some truths like the cast having their identities rewritten since none of them considered themselves as Ultimates back at their original selves.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22170: Jun 28th 2020 at 8:26:40 PM

Hmm... if that's the case I'm kinda inclined to hear it out. How clear is it he's had implants put in his head which would give him a certain level of intelligence? If that's not clear I'm leaning keep on that bit at least.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#22171: Jun 28th 2020 at 8:40:50 PM

Abstain on Obito, leaning no. (I consider my fondness of Naruto to be an Old Shame, especially since had he not gotten that one little sympathetic traits, he might be a complex complete monster.) As Newton says the situation with Danganronpa is that it's a fictional reality show. For all we know, the Junko Enoshima that we know, could be disqualified from CM status by the next game due to being completely fabricated and Team Danganronpa is really behind her crimes. I would like to see a complete effortpost on Nagito though, please Newton?

Anyway switching to yes on Khan, and yes to Yuri.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#22172: Jun 28th 2020 at 8:41:17 PM

Obitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobitobi

  • Obito Uchiha, aka Tobi, is the true mastermind behind the Akastuki who poses as Madara Uchiha. Saved from death as a child by Madara himself and witnessing the death of his best friend/crush, Rin, Tobi plans to revive the Ten-Tails and use its power to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi in order to create a dream world where death does not exist. Starting by attacking the Hidden Leaf Village to gain control of the Nine-Tailed Fox, he uses the Akatsuki to capture Jinchuriki and drain them for the Tailed Beasts sealed within them committing numerous atrocities in order to recruit Itachi and Kisame. Tobi observes the Akatsuki's missions while pretending to be a useless idiot before eventually revealing himself, in the process manipulating Sasuke into joining his side and in the end declaring war on the Five Great Nations to gain control of the Nine-Tails and Eight-Tails. The real Madara being reanimated by Kabuto, Obito successfully revives the Ten-Tails manipulates his former teammate, Kakashi, into destroying the seal the Madara implanted on his heart and becomes the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki. Ultimately only stopped by his own change in heart, Obito joins the fight against Madara and Kaguya, sacrificing himself to save Naruto.

Where do you guys suggest this should go on the tree? Also, please suggest any changes that should be made.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#22173: Jun 28th 2020 at 8:47:10 PM

Well, whether we like it or not, Obito is the most significant Naruto villain besides Madara and Orochimaru, so he should go on top of the current tree.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#22175: Jun 28th 2020 at 8:57:45 PM

Agreed for tree placement and I give you full permission to write the angriest Base-Breaking Character entry you'd like on him erazor.


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